Volunteer Chiefs Cars and Personal Use

[MJP399 4]

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What determines the need for a new Chief's car every 3 years that only does 600 to 1000 calls a year??? i see more pictures on this site of new vol. chief cars then i do anything else???

Are the cars from the same department? Just curious kinda sounds like that one dept. keeps buying new cars from the way you put.

Could you please further your statement.

If it is from various departments, maybe the other cars have been used for 8-10 years and are being replaced and I think that is on average or even longer than average for usages compared to a citizens car and the new ones are being displayed on this forum, but you are just seeing the new cars from many different departments, and I guess not the length of time the previous cars were used.

Who knows...

[markmets415 524]

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What determines the need for a new Chief's car every 3 years that only does 600 to 1000 calls a year??? i see more pictures on this site of new vol. chief cars then i do anything else???

Well this question could be directly tied to you first one, if it is driven out of the district daily lets say 20 mile each way and then to 1000 calls a year, training, meetings, conferences the mileage adds up pretty quickly.

I must have missed all the new chief vehicles posted because I haven't seen that many, the ones that have been are pretty even mix of paid/volunteer.

[gamewell45 258]

What ever happened to the time where there weren't chiefs vehicles for all of the chiefs? They used their personal vehicles and maybe recieved some sort of compensation for their gas and lights and sirens. There weren't 3 brand new suv's with lights and radios everywhere. Why did that work for so many years? And now municipalities are raising taxes, cutting budgets including fire/ems and police, just read the news papers. I have seen plenty of personal vehicles with red lights, any many with no markings, at fire scenes. Alot of dept's don't give their members anything for responding to calls with personal vehicles, it is "part of the job" of being in an emergency services department, a personal choice and maybe a small sacrifice. Going back to old practices in regards to the vehicle issue might not be a bad idea.

I don't know how long you've been in the fire service, but its constantly evolving; how'd we get along all those years w/o SCBA's or portable radios or cell phones or bunker pants and the list goes on and on. Could you imagine the chiefs in NYC being told to use their own cars and we'll pay for the lights and sirens and give you an allowance for gas?? I honestly don't thing it'd go over to well with them. If your doing work for any public agency where you need to be able to go out on the road on a moments notice you need to have the tools to do the job properly; and in many cases having a chiefs car is a "tool" that they need to have.

[ec255 22]

Just go to a meeting and ask the question or file a FOIL request or better yet ask someone from that Department. With new vehicles and what they cost, the days of installing lights, siren and radios in someones personal vehicle are pretty much gone. There is nothing to be afraid of- this is public information. During my days as a volunteer Chief I stopped and provided assistance at many an accident scene on my way to work.

[gamewell45 258]

Next question

What determines the need for a new Chief's car every 3 years that only does 600 to 1000 calls a year??? i see more pictures on this site of new vol. chief cars then i do anything else???

What determines the need for a new Chief's car every 3 years?? most likely mileage on the car; remember some districts are can be 60-70 sq miles, if your doing 600-1000 calls per year it all adds up; plus alot of chiefs cars remain running at fire scenes so there's additional wear and tear on the engines, etc.

[5slow 9]

Ok so my second question kinda got answered but not really. There are career departments that run 3000 to 4000 calls a year that update command cars less then the volunteer service. But even though the volunteer service does 1000 calls a year and most milege is put on for non department driving its a justified cost put off to the tax payer to replace a command car!

My first question is still out there! No one can justify this car or any car going to a personal job on the tax payer buck?

Next question

How many volunteer departments in Westchester have more then 1 Chief with a department car for personal use?

FYI due to the current economy people are losing jobs every day and the unemployment numbers are at there highest yet someone can use these cars to travel to work? Its not just the one I saw its all over in every city, town and village. Eliminating the uses can save dollars and help save jobs! I'm not saying eliminate the command car but don't drive it 20 miles away for your personal job!

First: Hastings to Pelham on Mapquest/Google etc... is approx 11 miles, so stop blowing up the numbers to serve whatever your cause is.

Second: You're posing as a career firefighter somewhere, but drive to work everyday on the Hutch and see this vehicle everyday. I don't know many firefighters who go to work everyday, but maybe you're different...

Third: Is this chiefs vehicle parked on the side of the Hutch, because your profile shows that you work in New Haven, CT. So, while you go to work everyday in New Haven, CT you exit the Hutch in Pelham/Mount Vernon to look around and then get back on northbound I guess... Good bagel and coffee shop around there I guess?!

I question your integrity and your cause. Good luck with your posts.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Some companies choose to have them use personal vehicles for chiefs and deal with the standards required by DOT.

What standards does DOT require?

[Tanker 10eng 140]

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What determines the need for a new Chief's car every 3 years that only does 600 to 1000 calls a year??? i see more pictures on this site of new vol. chief cars then i do anything else???

I can not comment anywhere else, but in Croton the normal rule of thumb is every 6 years.... a Chief's car is replaced under the supervision of the Village's Mechanic, who is incharge of the fleet.... he set up a program for replacements so that they are spaced out in a manner to best suit the taxpayers..... now if a vehicle is in good shape, as many have been, this time period maybe stretched out... but again that is under his advise...

Our mechanic does it as a warranty vs man hour to repair thing, if the cars are under warranty, all he has to do is budget in man hour for service... not repairs... and for what the Village pays for them !!! wow... love state bids... and after the useful life of a chief's car, Croton usually uses the vehicles for local DPW service...

I do question the town or Village's rule on just how far a vehicle can go for personal use... There are causes were this is abused, and that is a sad fact.... but lets face it, the abuse runs in paid personel postions were take home cars are used... from Town officials on down... just look at all the reports in the paper about all the take home cars in Yonkers ( I am not pointing at the FD ), and half the time you hear Yonkers crying for more money from NY.... aaaaaaaa

As a taxpayer, I have not problem with the Chiefs cars, but I sure think there needs to be set limits that they respect...

[lad12derff 283]

Well lets turn the question in the reverse direction....What about the Volunteer Chiefs who use their personal vehicle for fire district related business and calls and receive no fuel compensation or "perk" as some of you put it. Keep in mind there are some insurance companies that WILL not cover personal vehicles if they are being used as emergency vehicles. I am not talking about people that have chiefs vehicles already, but people that currently use their personal vehicles for response. Keep in mind the tax payer does not pay for that vehicle. Don't think for a second that just because they are doing district business in a personal vehicle that they will be covered under a district wide insurance policy id something goes wrong.

With that being said... Keep Safe and use your vehicles wisely.

Then why would you do it? Why would you risk your families future to drive around and respond when you know you are not covered. You can't reverse the question because you have a choice.

[Remember585 815]

I can not comment anywhere else, but in Croton the normal rule of thumb is every 6 years.... a Chief's car is replaced under the supervision of the Village's Mechanic, who is incharge of the fleet.... he set up a program for replacements so that they are spaced out in a manner to best suit the taxpayers..... now if a vehicle is in good shape, as many have been, this time period maybe stretched out... but again that is under his advise...

Our mechanic does it as a warranty vs man hour to repair thing, if the cars are under warranty, all he has to do is budget in man hour for service... not repairs... and for what the Village pays for them !!! wow... love state bids... and after the useful life of a chief's car, Croton usually uses the vehicles for local DPW service...

Actually Bill, our cars are getting replaced on an average of almost seven to eight years now. The car that 2082 just had replaced had just under 100,000 miles and it was a 2001. The car I am using, which is a twin, only has 83,000 miles on it and is slated for replacement this Summer or Fall. The Village is retiring vehicles from their primary roles around the 90,000 mile mark, which is reportedly going to increase to 100,000 miles, assuming it still runs and functions as it should. This applies to the PD cars as well as the FD Chief's cars. As far as vehicle replacement goes, it shouldn't just be based on the use of the vehicle, but the type of vehicle too. The car we replaced most recently, as well as the one I use, are 2001 Ford Explorers. The equipment in our vehicles is close to pushing the threshold weight on these vehicles, and over time they are / were becoming underpowered and struggle to move on certain hills. Additionally, you have to take into consideration that these vehicles are left running at scenes sometimes for several hours - another stressor on the vehicle. It isn't all about the mileage, it's everything that these cars are exposed to and put through that adds up over time.

For a volunteer Chief in Westchester County, you generally need two vehicle radios plus whatever warning devices you choose to have. Many need to keep a portable radio or two charging, and a flashlight or two. If you have to use your own vehicle, do you really want to add all of this stuff? I know in my own POV I only have one radio and a couple of LED lights, but it is my choice. Other Chiefs who aren't as inept at wiring stuff and putting things in their own POVs may only have a dash light, which is actually a violation of VTL, considering you are required to use a siren with the light. Now, with the county Trunk radio system, you can get away with using the portable only in many areas but not all. So if you are responding on a Mutual Aid run in your POV and the incident is on trunked, how do you communicate if you're in a bad area for portable reception? Personally if we're going Mutual Aid and there's room, I ride the apparatus - how many Chief's cars do you need at a scene anyway?

We're all accountable to those paying for our vehicles and equipment, so best judegement should be exercised. If a Chief works out of town and at a job they can't leave, then that car is best suited staying in town. If that Chief works somewhere and can actually leave then I don't see an issue with taking it. We're usually fortunate enough to have Chiefs who work in town or take the train into NYC which leaves that car here, in case we need it. Knowing too that there may be a time or two (it doesn't happen often) where one of our Chiefs isn't here for a call for whatever reason (home sick, work, etc.) we have the Command Board, Command Vest and additional radios available to whomever may play the IC role. As another rule, if any Chief is going to be out of town on vacation, we give the car to Deputy Chiefs. Right now our Chief is out of work on injury, so he is in town at home all the time. If the two Assistants aren't going to be around either his car or one of ours is available for a Deputy Chief to use. Many of our Deputies pass on the car and man the apparatus, or even use their own car.

It's all about accountability to those footing the bill for us. If your Commissioners or your Village board says to change something, then change something. The reality is that most politicians don't know what's going on and/or are doing things they know are questionable so they're not about to start stirring the pot about Chief's cars.

[Remember585 815]

Then why would you do it? Why would you risk your families future to drive around and respond when you know you are not covered. You can't reverse the question because you have a choice.

Don't assume that you are covered if you crash a work / volunteer FD rig either. I know of a couple incidents where someone had an accident driving the fire engine / Chief's car on official business and their personal insurance carrier gave them the ax. I don't agree with it but this is the truth and it sucks.

[demps121 39]

I don't want to high-jack the thread however, when a personal vehicle is used with lights and siren, should you comply with the NFPA standard for lighting on an emergency vehicle with 360 degree lighting coverage. Some lawyers would have a field day if someone was to get in an accident and only had a dash light and siren. I don't think you should risk your families financial situation. Protect yourself if you need 360 degree lighting to protect yourself than do it. I am not sure what the requirement is on POV running as emergency vehicle as it relates to lighting coverage.

[lad12derff 283]

Don't assume that you are covered if you crash a work / volunteer FD rig either. I know of a couple incidents where someone had an accident driving the fire engine / Chief's car on official business and their personal insurance carrier gave them the ax. I don't agree with it but this is the truth and it sucks.

We are held by the same laws as a civilian. We have discussed this on this forum before. We all must drive with caution, wear our seatbelts and use good ol' common sense when we respond. The law does not care paid or volly you are on your own if you screw up.

[Remember585 815]

We are held by the same laws as a civilian. We have discussed this on this forum before. We all must drive with caution, wear our seatbelts and use good ol' common sense when we respond. The law does not care paid or volly you are on your own if you screw up.

"True Dat."

[demps121 39]

Remember585

I don't know if it still holds true, if you are in an accident with a fire vehicle and a MV104 is filled out there is a box that should be marked with the letter F (for fire). The accident was not to go on your personal driving record and insurance. Maybe some could give more info on the subject, I know this was true on the career side a number of years ago.

[steve shryock 0]

Being that I sell auto Insurance I can tell you that your personal auto policy will NOT cover your personal vehicle if it is being used as an authorized emergency vehicle. Only a few insurance companies in New York will offer vehicle insurance on Authorized Emergency Vehicles so using your POV as an authorized emergency vehicle will definately cost you a lot more. The reasoning is just like a personal car being used as a business vehicle there is more exposure to being in accidents and they will charge you accordingly to your exposure.

What I have seen is that the District or Municipality will specifically add that POV to their policy for Emergency Use only so they will defend & indemnify the "employee".

POVs used in non emergency mode with blue lights are covered by personal auto carriers, no additional premium and if there are any accidents regardless of whose at fault, most do not surcharge the operator if they are responding TO an alarm, again as a POV non authorized emergency mode.

[steve shryock 0]

Remember585

I don't know if it still holds true, if you are in an accident with a fire vehicle and a MV104 is filled out there is a box that should be marked with the letter F (for fire). The accident was not to go on your personal driving record and insurance. Maybe some could give more info on the subject, I know this was true on the career side a number of years ago.

The accident will go on your personal driving record. When you do your annual insurance review with your agent (takes about 10 minutes!) they will review the accidents and driving history to see if there are any changes but if you are driving, it is on your record.

When I do this review with my clients (I have a lot of fire & police as clients) I will review this with them and find out the facts and circumstances of the accident and review it with my underwriter. If it's in emergency mode and I can document it with an official report (accident report or letter from dept) he will note that in the file and it will not be held against them for insurance purposes. They will not be charged higher premiums due to those accidents.

[steve shryock 0]

I don't want to high-jack the thread however, when a personal vehicle is used with lights and siren, should you comply with the NFPA standard for lighting on an emergency vehicle with 360 degree lighting coverage. Some lawyers would have a field day if someone was to get in an accident and only had a dash light and siren. I don't think you should risk your families financial situation. Protect yourself if you need 360 degree lighting to protect yourself than do it. I am not sure what the requirement is on POV running as emergency vehicle as it relates to lighting coverage.

It's NYS V & T Law for emergency ights to be displayed 360 degrees

[demps121 39]

Steve

I do not know how a fire Dept can legally spend tax dollars to add a POV clause on a municipal insurance contract (not that it has not been done, however there may be legal issues of using tax dollars for that purpose)

also the MV-104 box for fire was to ensure that an accident did not follow onto your personal policy, maybe you can look a little more on that subject so we can all be better educated.

thanks

Edited April 25, 2009 by demps121

[demps121 39]

Steve,

you say V&T law say's 360 degrees of lighting, what about under cover cop cars some crown vics have lights front and back but not on the sides. Are police vehicles exempt and fire vehicles not? What about VAC officer POV?

This thread is getting good.

Edited April 25, 2009 by demps121

[steve shryock 0]

I'll look thru the VTL and check with a few friends who are attorneys that work for insurance companies and do the defense work on these types of accidents.

The municipality may get a rider from their insurance company to cover a POV only for the times the POV is used in emergency mode. that is usually coordinated between the insurance companies, the insured (dept member) and the agents. The member must still maintian his personal coverage to cover him when not on official duties but there have been agreements in the past with endorsements on the policies that if, for example, a chief uses his personal vehicle for response then the department will only cover him for those responses. Finally there member may have to have very high liability limits, such as a million dollars per accident coverage (nys min auto insurance is 25,000/50,000).

I will also check with the PD about the MV104 notations.

Finally VAC officer POV may be the same as for firefighter.

I'll make a few calls & research it. may take a few days though to get everyone's opinion.

[helicopper 1,050]

As for accident reports and insurance issues - every reportable accident regardless of what vehicle you're driving results in an accident being recorded on your driving record. When engaged in a bona fide emergency operation, a distinction may be noted such as "POLICE INVOLVED" or "FIRE VEHICLE INVOLVED" but even if the reporting officer notes this it won't prevent it from appearing on your record. It just shows that it was an emergency operation and I don't know what every insurance company will do.

Just routine patrol or returning to the station in apparatus will not result in such a notation and the accident will remain on your record and you can be subject to sanctions by your insurance company.

There are differences in the VTL for police vehicles. A police vehicle may be engaged in an emergency operation without lights/siren operating but that is an exception for the police due to responses for crimes in progress and such.

[demps121 39]

Chris,

I believe there was legislation a number of years ago that passed in Albany, that protected firefighters (from accidents following on personal insurance), it has been a number of years since I was a legislation rep, maybe firecap will remember if he signs on.

Edited April 25, 2009 by demps121

[firecapt32 282]

dont drag me into this I am headed to the big brush fires in Myrtle maybe Capt Demps can call his friend from upstate new york that does all that fire legislation stuff,, by the way Capt i saw Mark this morning at the airport and he says to say hello!!!!

[firecapt32 282]

ok ok you got me into this im in then middle of laundry but in reality how much does it realy cost in gas to give a chief a car and milage and what ever for doing the communnity and the public the service that they do??

If a community wanted to save money on taxes or what ever---- they wouldnt be buying all those huge fire apparatus that I have been seening the last few days at FDIC.

a community that wants to save money--have a good look at the whole fire budgets not just gas/milage

[RWC130 594]

How about State, County, City, Town, and Village Vehicles?

Let's not just jump on the FIRE CHIEF!

I know of several people in Local Government and Municipal Services such as DPW, Highway, Etc

that have take home vehicles.

It's not just Police and Fire Departments.

If you live in the same county i.e. Westchester and you have a

take home vehicle because of a job title/position I have no problem

with that BUT........

When you work in Westchester County and you have a take home vehicle to

Suffolk County, Dutchess County, or Orange County I think that IS a problem

and a total waste of taxpayer dollars.

Maybe someone should ask the Greenburgh Town Supervisor Paul Feiner who is the Town of Greenburgh DPW

official that has the take home vehicle up to Dutchess County I see on Route 9 all the time?

USE IT, JUST DON'T ABUSE IT!

Just my TWO cents!

[demps121 39]

WE have lot's of stuff going on here

Chiefs vehicle out of town

POV as chief vehicle lighting requirements

Insurance requirements on POV operated as chief car(lights siren)

Municipal gov paying some form of insurance on POV with taxpayer money

firefighter in MVA with dept vehicle, does or does not follow on personal insurance

Any municipal vehicle as take home vehicle distance from municipality

come on guy's what else

this is good stuff maybe we can educate some so they do not put a hardship on there family or themselves

[Remember585 815]

When I was a VAC Lieutenant I called my insurance company to see what, if any, additional needed to be done to cover me. My agent said, "If you crash using your lights and sirens, don't report that."

I know of a couple insurance agencies that will give you coverage for the RLS, but it will cost you.

One of my members asked me if their car is being used to divert traffic at a fire scene, would we cover it if it got hit. My answer to him was, "Well, you know how the Village DPW took off a couple of our cars' mirrors in that one snow storm we were standing by at the firehouse for, and none of us saw a dime? I'm pretty sure it will happen in this case too."

Edited April 25, 2009 by Remember585

[ja3kfd 34]

I can say from experience, both mine and my father's me first, I had two accidents while I was chief, the 1st one was I had parked the car in a parking lot for a PIAA and a driver hit the car while it was parked, so there was no problem with that one as it was parked and i was not in it. The Second one I was driving to a call and a car did not yield after I was in the intersection, and hit me and sent me sideways into another car, this intersection was not controlled by a traffic light, and the cars on the main road did yield to me, anyways my point being I was not charged on my insurance and it does not show up on my driving record. I was driving a district owned vehicle for both of these.

My father was at a call, and the chief , (father was Asst.) had some one else take his truck to a station with air bottles to refill for a structure fire. A driver did not yield she went on the shoulder around stopped cars and the collided. She sued my father, and she won, the district did not cover this his insurance paid. His rates did not go up and he was not dropped. I forgot to put in that it was his POV, and we were just about out of bottles, when they were sent.

We know have 3 chiefs cars, with all the radios, and equipment we carry nowI do not even want to think what a electical night mare it could become for your POV.

The District does have polices for driving area etc. As well I do not think it is too much to ask for the District to have the Chiefs cars,

as long as they are used correctley.

Edited April 25, 2009 by ja3kfd

[CAM502 6]

First: Hastings to Pelham on Mapquest/Google etc... is approx 11 miles, so stop blowing up the numbers to serve whatever your cause is.

Second: You're posing as a career firefighter somewhere, but drive to work everyday on the Hutch and see this vehicle everyday. I don't know many firefighters who go to work everyday, but maybe you're different...

Third: Is this chiefs vehicle parked on the side of the Hutch, because your profile shows that you work in New Haven, CT. So, while you go to work everyday in New Haven, CT you exit the Hutch in Pelham/Mount Vernon to look around and then get back on northbound I guess... Good bagel and coffee shop around there I guess?!

I question your integrity and your cause. Good luck with your posts.

OK I'm not getting in the middle of all this but......he is not making it up!! I live on the Pelham/NR border and see this car almost daily.

Ok I'm done...