Are we doing it for free?

[ckroll 101]

It may be old but it's still relevant. A recent post on another thread referred to volunteer EMS as doing it 'for free'. I'm 20 years volunteer fire/15 years volunteer EMS and 6 years paid EMS. As much as I love volunteer service and all it represents, is it for free? When I was captain in 2001 our budget went from 70K to 90K to service 10,000 households. The town is not that much larger, though we now have a bay that will hold 8 ambulances [ parked really, really tightly] and we have a budget that now approaches that of our fire department, [apparently a goal of ours. ] We do not get paid to respond to calls, but our patients get billed and every household pays their share of our budget, as much as $50 a year.

When we got $9 per house per year, that felt like we were doing it for close to free. At $50 per house per year, [and this is really rough math] If there are 500 calls a year and 10,000 households, that's one call per household every 20 years. [i've lived here 22 years and called an ambulance once.] 50 x 20 is $1000. And that is more than paid service would have cost me for the one time I needed an ambulance.

The responders may feel like it's free, but taxpayers still pay, both in taxes and when they use the system. In my humble way of thinking, volunteer EMS has a cost, and it is rapidly becoming a large cost. 'We will come if we feel like it, and we may look like homeless people when we do it.'....that may have been a fair trade off for service 10 years ago. Now that we bill and we drink deeply from the public trough, [and, yes, we cover more calls], and now that we cost as much or more than a paid service..... I don't think it is at all unreasonable for residents to expect that there will be a crew in uniform in quarters ready to respond.

What do I expect from volunteers? As a volunteer, and a paid professional, and as a taxpayer, I expect whatever service my town provides to suck it up and to provide that service in a timely fashion, trained like professionals, a looking like a professional. If that means crews in quarters, then so be it.

What do taxpayers in various towns pay, directly or indirectly, for ambulance service? I'm guessing it's not 'free' anywhere.

[Goose 188]

Nothing is for free, we all know that. But you are correct that many volunteers like to point out that they "do it for free." Sure they don't get a paycheck but like you aptly discussed, some of the operating budgets are insane. I know of area departments that have budgets that are anywhere from 1 to in excess of 1 million dollars. Maybe they do ~700 calls a year? Often hit or miss if they get out. The cost-benefit ratio is rather low.

Look at most Westchester towns/villages/hamlets - they have their own fire department and ambulance corps (if it's not part of the FD). Two huge budgets for a miniscule swath of land. 2 ambulances, engines, ladders, rescues, utilities, 24 cheifs cars, etc.

It's just bizarre. The millions of dollars in apparatus, equipment and buildings, the large budgets and still it takes 4 departments to put out a fire and hell, forget about EMS - 1 EMS call overwhelms most agencies in Westchester.

Forget crews in quarters or uniforms, thats unlikely to happen. Remember, they volunteer. I agree with you, and at times i wonder if they are not holding things (primarily in EMS) back. Why shouldn't they pull in-house duty hours and wear a uniform? There is no real reason they can't or shouldn't have to, but many play both sides of the "im a volunteer" mantra. It's such a complicated politically charged mess it's unlike to change. Only in the wake of a horrendous catastrophe will things start to be shaken up...

Edited April 24, 2009 by Goose

[MJP399 4]

To me it seems like the operating cost of equipment is where it goes. Each rig is an expensive investment that needs up keep throughout the years. There there is the cost of training, unless it is in house training with no gear or a rental fee than it costs something. Than possibly recruitment for furture generations to continue what you have laid out in your years of service to keep that organization alive. Lastly besides from the apparatus the equipment needed to outfit the rig in order to get the job done effectively, since like a high operating cost, that both paid and volunteer departments need for their budget.

If for some reason there is a problem in the service that is provided with a timely manner, with the 8 rigs that the department has as mentioned, you and various other departments that are having trouble may want to look into how they can effectively service the community better. Maybe having duty hours to ensure that each of the 8 rigs is effeinciently staffed, and than there shouldnt be a problem. Secondly if you are billing and feel like the public is not getting the service that they desearve maybe look into a career staffing of the rig, which I am sure will eat into the operating budget rather quickly, and thus presumably add to the tax rate for the community.

I feel paid or vollie there are operating costs, and nothing is free, we are helping cut costs by being volunteers, however, both groups still need to tax the public to be up to date and code, as well as provide the services.

Now I did say we as volunteers do the service that a paid guy can do for free, but however this is not even a dig in that direction, as I have the utmost respect for you guys and gals that are providing as service as your livelihood. And the training that you must go through, which in fact i believe some of the more progressive volunteer deptartment whom want to better themselves and further themselves are completing as well. Career ff's and ems are good when the situation arises, i.e. call volume, city size, traffic volume etc...

But when you look at it, it will cost everyone no matter career nor vollie.

Just my two cents

[MerlinMedic 5]

Are we doing this for free? Depends where in the State you live. The Hudson Valley up thru Saratoga has many 'volunteer' agencies that bill, plus receive tax dollars. Start heading West, and it is another story. Some agencies bill, few tax and call the comercial gency & you are likely to see the same faces, just in a blue shirt. My own volly squad runs a 13 year old rig; our monitor is a monophasic Life Pac 12 that we have been trying to replace for 2 years. Our budget is 45K, with pancake breafasts, chicken bar-b-q's and 2 weekends a year where we mug anyone going thru our one stop light for spare change. We pass the hat once a month to pay for flowers or some building improvement. We have to cover the State prision -- there is no Alamo to call. This is true from the Adirondacks to the Southern Teir up to Tug Hill out to Buffollo.

So, do we do it for free, yup. Just not here !

[ckroll 101]

Are we doing this for free? Depends where in the State you live. The Hudson Valley up thru Saratoga has many 'volunteer' agencies that bill, plus receive tax dollars. Start heading West, and it is another story. Some agencies bill, few tax and call the comercial gency & you are likely to see the same faces, just in a blue shirt. My own volly squad runs a 13 year old rig; our monitor is a monophasic Life Pac 12 that we have been trying to replace for 2 years. Our budget is 45K, with pancake breafasts, chicken bar-b-q's and 2 weekends a year where we mug anyone going thru our one stop light for spare change. We pass the hat once a month to pay for flowers or some building improvement. We have to cover the State prision -- there is no Alamo to call. This is true from the Adirondacks to the Southern Teir up to Tug Hill out to Buffollo.

So, do we do it for free, yup. Just not here !

So true. I vollie and work EMS in Putnam/Westchester, but our other home is in Paul Smith's, New York. Local agencies there are using aparatus we wouldn't deem good enough to cut up for extrication drills. Parts of New York are still living the genuine volunteer existence and I believe providing great service doing it. When one town I pay taxes to spends close to a million on fire and EMS and the other town spends 50K... Yes, the call volumes are much different, as is the level of service, but the results are pretty much the same.

So, yes, there are NY agencies out there that are not on municipal welfare and they make us proud.

[gamewell45 258]

It may be old but it's still relevant. A recent post on another thread referred to volunteer EMS as doing it 'for free'. I'm 20 years volunteer fire/15 years volunteer EMS and 6 years paid EMS. As much as I love volunteer service and all it represents, is it for free? When I was captain in 2001 our budget went from 70K to 90K to service 10,000 households. The town is not that much larger, though we now have a bay that will hold 8 ambulances [ parked really, really tightly] and we have a budget that now approaches that of our fire department, [apparently a goal of ours. ] We do not get paid to respond to calls, but our patients get billed and every household pays their share of our budget, as much as $50 a year.

When we got $9 per house per year, that felt like we were doing it for close to free. At $50 per house per year, [and this is really rough math] If there are 500 calls a year and 10,000 households, that's one call per household every 20 years. [i've lived here 22 years and called an ambulance once.] 50 x 20 is $1000. And that is more than paid service would have cost me for the one time I needed an ambulance.

The responders may feel like it's free, but taxpayers still pay, both in taxes and when they use the system. In my humble way of thinking, volunteer EMS has a cost, and it is rapidly becoming a large cost. 'We will come if we feel like it, and we may look like homeless people when we do it.'....that may have been a fair trade off for service 10 years ago. Now that we bill and we drink deeply from the public trough, [and, yes, we cover more calls], and now that we cost as much or more than a paid service..... I don't think it is at all unreasonable for residents to expect that there will be a crew in uniform in quarters ready to respond.

What do I expect from volunteers? As a volunteer, and a paid professional, and as a taxpayer, I expect whatever service my town provides to suck it up and to provide that service in a timely fashion, trained like professionals, a looking like a professional. If that means crews in quarters, then so be it.

What do taxpayers in various towns pay, directly or indirectly, for ambulance service? I'm guessing it's not 'free' anywhere.

I think the term "volunteer" is a natural term to mean "no salary paid" and that their time spent serving the community is considered "donated" in other words, without charge to the tax base.

Obviously as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, nothing is for "free" anymore. Fire departments need to have the necessary equipment to train, fight fires, fire station to house the equipment, etc along with whatever insurance that is necessary to cover their volunteers.

As far as ambulance service; in my town, they have a contract with a commercial ambulance service to provide ALS service 24/7, supplemented by the voluneer run BLS Ambulance. Patients insurance company is billed by the ambulance service (if they have insurance coverage) and all other uncovered expenses are paid for by the town. If memory serves me correct, the contract our town has with its commercial ambulance service is around 300k. which covers a town of approx. 10,000. BLS service by the Volunteer Ambulance is provided free of charge.

Edited May 10, 2009 by gamewell45

[Goose 188]

Free - as in you're not billed or as in the organization takes no tax dollars and does not bill you?

Ultimately, if we took all the money wasted on the overabundance of resources we have county wide, we could have a few million to start looking at a county wide third service.

[helicopper 1,050]

I think the term "volunteer" is a natural term to mean "no salary paid" and that their time spent serving the community is considered "donated" in other words, without charge to the tax base.

Obviously as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, nothing is for "free" anymore. Fire departments need to have the necessary equipment to train, fight fires, fire station to house the equipment, etc along with whatever insurance that is necessary to cover their volunteers.

As far as ambulance service; in my town, they have a contract with a commercial ambulance service to provide ALS service 24/7, supplemented by the voluneer run BLS Ambulance. Patients insurance company is billed by the ambulance service (if they have insurance coverage) and all other uncovered expenses are paid for by the town. If memory serves me correct, the contract our town has with its commercial ambulance service is around 300k. which covers a town of approx. 10,000. BLS service by the Volunteer Ambulance is provided free of charge.

I think you're right but many agencies still call themselves volunteer but employ personnel so it is not as simple as we'd expect.

BLS can not be free of charge because you can't bill for ALS treatment without also charging for the transportation. The ambulance also needs fuel and insurance, the building needs electricity and HVAC, telephones, etc. Equipment and training is needed there too so it is absolutely not free. Someone is paying.