When does the "new guy" become a firefighter?

[helicopper 1,050]

I know that I’ll probably be burned in effigy for this thread but I’m going to ask the questions anyway.

When does a new member of a volunteer fire department become a “firefighter”? The distinction is clear in a career department; they’re not a FF until they complete the academy so therein lies the issue.

Is a new member with no training a “firefighter”?

Does one become a firefighter after completing the minimum training required for that position? OK, that’s a reasonable definition, so what’s the minimum training?

Does the designation as interior qualified make one a FF? Why or why not?

If you say that every member of a fire department is a firefighter I’m going to call foul! If we deceive ourselves and our constituents by leading them to believe that there are X number of firefighters in the department because that’s how many members we have we’re doing everyone a disservice. How many of the members can actually be called upon at any hour of the day or night to perform all of the duties required of a firefighter?

Do you require that everyone who joins to become a firefighter become interior qualified? Is there a timeframe? Again, why not?

Does your department’s workers compensation insurance apply to all members or just those designated firefighters and fire police? If you have 300 members but only 100 are firefighters and/or fire police are you paying to cover the 200 other members as well?

There have been many threads on many of these topics and these questions have built up so I’m doing spring cleaning for my question box – don’t worry though, there’ll be plenty more.

[Mofire24 27]

Chris

I will try and answer this

We have new members go through a medical physical to determine if they are able to go interior or exterior. They become firefighters when they go through our inhouse training. If they are able to be interior firefighters they MUST go through firefighter 1 before they can become an interior firefighter. The insurance covers all our members if they operate onscene if they are fire police,exterior,interior they are covered by the insurance or they can not be there.

We have orange front pieces on there helmets to distinct the difference between interior and exterior so you can tell the difference between they and fire police obviously carry different equipment so they arent interior or exterior firefighters.

There is a time frame usually we like them to get the firefighter 1 class is usually within 1 year

[TAPSJ 30]

When the OLD Guy retires, LOLOL.

Thomas

Edited April 16, 2009 by TAPSJ

[x129K 1,393]

We have orange front pieces on there helmets to distinct the difference between interior and exterior so you can tell the difference between they and fire police obviously carry different equipment so they arent interior or exterior firefighters.

Some neighboring departments by me do the same as far as the shields go, but let me ask you this - does the orange signify probationary, or exterior? I always just thought a probie was an exterior member till they got off, then they could start "goin' in".....but I had my eyes opened by a good department here in Dutchess, who uses the orange/probie shield ID system, but at a multi alarm fire, he was packed up, with tools, a light, the whole 9. It hit me....just because a member is on probation, doesnt mean they cant fight fire...it all depends on the level of training. Thank you Beekman.

To answer the question, if it even has an answer...it depends on the person joining up. The sooner you can get your basic qualifications and some time under your belt - the better your chances are to be a full fledged firefighter as soon as possible.

[Bunkers 0]

RD3TRK, I like what you said... Show your face. Let the officers and older guys know that you want to be doing what you signed up to do.

Chris192, nice topic. This will give those t-shirt members and facebook picture posters something to think about

[Bnechis 3,961]

I know that I’ll probably be burned in effigy for this thread but I’m going to ask the questions anyway.

Chris its a good thing you are armed

When does a new member of a volunteer fire department become a “firefighter”? The distinction is clear in a career department; they’re not a FF until they complete the academy so therein lies the issue.

Chris, in many career depts. when you complete the academy you get an orange front piece, "probie" and you still have 1,000 of hours of learning ahead of you. In fact you can be "let go" without reason at anytime until you complete your probation period (ususally 1 year). After 1 year you often are considered a ff (but you still may have to prove yourself, if you have not yet).

Is a new member with no training a “firefighter”? Does one become a firefighter after completing the minimum training required for that position? OK, that’s a reasonable definition, so what’s the minimum training?

No, but I've seen many depts that will consider it. Just because you have completed the training does not mean you have learned enough to do the job.

If you say that every member of a fire department is a firefighter I’m going to call foul! If we deceive ourselves and our constituents by leading them to believe that there are X number of firefighters in the department because that’s how many members we have we’re doing everyone a disservice. How many of the members can actually be called upon at any hour of the day or night to perform all of the duties required of a firefighter?

I'd be willing to bet that most VFD's consider any "active" member to be a firefighter. I've been to many FD events in many different VFD's and found many "firefighters" that were clearly no longer able to participate as interior, exterior and firepolice due to age, medical condition, residence (found a few who lived in FL or in nursing homes) that the dept considered as firefighters (yes the were once, and no-one wants to take the title away).

Go to many dept. websites and see what they list as the # of firefighters.

And while this has been discused many times here the value of "exterior only" members, what happens when they are the only ones that show up. does the public know how many of your members are unwilling or unable to go into a fire area?

In addition to deceiving oneself & the public, having unqualified members hurts your ISO rating and can cost your communities property owners $$$.

If you have 100 "firefighters" but only 50 actually train, respond, & participate and the 50 members average 8-9 hours per month of training (100 hours per year) or a total of 5,000 training hours, ISO divides the 5,000 by 100 members and considers that your "firefighters" have 50 hours of annual training or half what you claimed because the other 1/2 is credited to the "firefighters" who are not real.

[ex-commish 490]

I've been to many FD events in many different VFD's and found many "firefighters" that were clearly no longer able to participate as interior, exterior and firepolice due to age, medical condition, residence (found a few who lived in FL or in nursing homes)

Mutual aid???

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

As I am going through a similar process, the new guy is a firefighter when chiefs says jump and he already knows how high. Example, chief says hit the hydrant, already know how to and are proficient in hitting the hydrant; chief says throw the 25 footer, you know which one is 25 feet, where it goes and how to raise and secure it, foot it and avoid hazards. The new guy is not the new guy when he has his basic training and can do the same work the other guys can, only not as well.

Edited April 17, 2009 by bvfdjc316

[Hess1075 4]

It's kind of funny you posted this thread, My buddy and I were out to dinner last night and we talked about this same thing. How in many volunteer departments its really easy to be giving the title "Firefighter"... Good Topic! and Good Ideas by All

Randy H.

[abaduck 123]

And while this has been discused many times here the value of "exterior only" members, what happens when they are the only ones that show up. does the public know how many of your members are unwilling or unable to go into a fire area?

Do many departments have 'exterior only' members? How exactly does that work? In our department, as far as I know, the only FFs that would apply to are new recruits who haven't completed FF1/FF Survival - they can still learn a lot on the scene, obviously they can't enter IDLH. If you don't have a current medical for interior firefighting you're not allowed to respond to the scene.

When do you become a FF? Perhaps when the senior guys consider you one?

More objectively, perhaps you're a FF when you're a probie capable of performing interior firefighting tasks under the close supervision of an officer or senior man? Does that work?

[x129K 1,393]

Do many departments have 'exterior only' members? How exactly does that work? In our department, as far as I know, the only FFs that would apply to are new recruits who haven't completed FF1/FF Survival - they can still learn a lot on the scene, obviously they can't enter IDLH. If you don't have a current medical for interior firefighting you're not allowed to respond to the scene.

When do you become a FF? Perhaps when the senior guys consider you one?

More objectively, perhaps you're a FF when you're a probie capable of performing interior firefighting tasks under the close supervision of an officer or senior man? Does that work?

It is becoming more common for departments to differentiate between exterior/interioir fire members.

[Remember585 815]

We never really had this issue of Interior vs. Exterior because nobody ever took the time to notice the differences. Now, with all the liabilities of everything, it's more important then ever to make a clear distinction between the two. Some of the below is currently in effect, others are "coming soon."

Active Exterior Personnel

Completion of an annual Physical clearing them for "Exterior functions"

Completion of Scene Support Ops or an equivalent

Completion of Haz-Mat First Responder Ops & annual refresher

Completion of Confined Space Awareness & Safety & annual refresher

Completion of Initial OSHA 15 Hour Training and Annual "8"

Completion of CPR training (including AED)

Exterior Personnel have RED accountability tags. Exploration into possible different colored helmets is being looked into, or something similar.

Active Interior Personnel

Completion of an annual Physical clearing them for "Interior functions"

Completion of Firefighter I or an equivalent

Completion of Haz-Mat First Responder Ops & annual refresher

Completion of Confined Space Awareness & Safety & annual refresher

Completion of Initial OSHA 15 Hour Training and Annual "8"

Completion of CPR training (including AED)

Completion of Firefighter Survival

Completion of Personal Escape training & annual refresher (once we settle on a system and get them)

Interior Personnel have GREEN accountability tags. The tag colors are uniform within our Battalion which makes life easier when at an incident.

Beginning last year, we started buying "generic" helmet fronts with orange inserts saying "Prob. Firefighter" to give members until they complete their required training. Of course, some have finished the training and still have them because money is a little tight, and some that need it are using "spares" because we're all out. It's new and it's got it's growing pains, but hopefully by the end of this year it will all be in place.

As far as the training and "trial by fire" stuff goes - We've been lucky with our last dozen or so members. They either show great initiative and take all the training and come to drills and calls, or they just vanish and find themselves being dropped from the department. By lucky, I mean that it's either all or nothing and we're not sorting through the mess to figure out who is going to pan out and who is going to be a waste of our time.

It would be nice to see Westchester County create a uniform standard requirements for Interior and Exterior, agree to an accountability system (colors, at the least) and even a "helmet code" where one color helmet in Department A means the same thing in Departments B, C, L, Z, etc.

Rant over.... hope this info helps a little.

[fireman3484 1]

Some neighboring departments by me do the same as far as the shields go, but let me ask you this - does the orange signify probationary, or exterior? I always just thought a probie was an exterior member till they got off, then they could start "goin' in".....but I had my eyes opened by a good department here in Dutchess, who uses the orange/probie shield ID system, but at a multi alarm fire, he was packed up, with tools, a light, the whole 9. It hit me....just because a member is on probation, doesnt mean they cant fight fire...it all depends on the level of training. Thank you Beekman.

To answer the question, if it even has an answer...it depends on the person joining up. The sooner you can get your basic qualifications and some time under your belt - the better your chances are to be a full fledged firefighter as soon as possible.

We keep our guys on probation until they can prove that they can function as part of the team and do the skills needed to get the job done. Minimum, no matter what your background, is 1 year. To be interior in Beekman, you have to have FF1, survival, HM Ops, and annual rope training, at least 1 department live burn and 10 drills. Last year we did between 40-50 drills and 3 live burns. We weeded out all the dead wood and guys that just came for the "big one" and have a strong group of guys that I would be confident giving any job on the fireground.

The guy you saw Dan, is doing his OJT and is on his way to becoming interior, if its who im thinking. Pawling fire?

[FirNaTine 370]

When does a new guy become a FF.? When he can do his job proficiently without having to be taken by the hand and shown how to perform various tasks on every occasion. Just because someone graduates an Academy doesn't make them a FF. whether it be Career or Volunteer. There's both Career and Volunteer members with 20 yrs. in the Fire Service who still have no friggin clue of what they're doing. Bottom line ya gotta prove yourself!

[shadow12083 17]

I think it is when the other guys on the crew or the officer don't think of you as a probie and know you can handle yourself in a variety of situations. You can have all the training in the world but not the brains to act responsibility.

For me personally it was when the offices would trust me to get assign tasks done with out having to have someone baby sit me, they trust me to get things done when they tell me to do them. I still have a lot more training to be as knowledgeable as the other guys, but I remember what it was like when I started about three years ago and I think that I have come pretty far in that time.

Edited April 17, 2009 by shadow12083

[eckyphats 0]

he/she becomes a firefighter when we say so... have to prove yourself

[Bnechis 3,961]

It would be nice to see Westchester County create a uniform standard requirements for Interior and Exterior, agree to an accountability system (colors, at the least) and even a "helmet code" where one color helmet in Department A means the same thing in Departments B, C, L, Z, etc.

Not very likely to happen. Since NYS cant manage to come up with one standard and I see a number of departments that "interior" members do not meet the minimum OSHA standards to respond to any calls. In general the career depts have different needs for accountability than the VFD's so if they come up with a system its not likely that it will satisfy's both.

[gss131 212]

Maybe its me ,but I read the thread as a question that asks what is needed to be considered a "legal" firefighter,not what evryone's opinion of one should be.In other words,if Department X has 15 exterior members and 12 interior firefighters,does that department advertise to the public that it has 27 firefighters available should their services be needed?Again maybe its me.

[AFS1970 504]

Good question, so I will not be running towards you with a torch. There is allot going on in this question however, which could lead to multiple answers.

When does the New Guy stop being the New Guy? When he begins to think of the team and not the individual. After showing that he is willing to help without being asked. When you no longer have to ask him where he was instead of training, and more importantly when he starts training more than one drill night a week, by his own choice. When the next new guy comes in and the last new guy is helpful instead of holding his few minutes of seniority over the really new guys head. That is when he stopped being the new guy.

When is a new member a Firefighter? This one really depends on who is asking. To the public we are all firefighters, like it or not. They see anything from turn out gear to a t-shirt and they assume us all to be Firefighters. The public does not know much about our training or certifications, and they certainly can not read a helmet shield. When I joined my department probies were issued yellow helmets. I also bought my own orange probationary shield for the front. During a presentation for some kids, one of the fathers was asking what probationary meant, and it was clear he just didn't get the concept that I was the new guy and still in training.

Now if it is the state or an other fire department asking, the answer is usually when basic training is over. In Connecticut this is Firefighter 1. Now there are a growing number of departments that are including Firefighter 2 as part of basic. Many also include either MRT (CFR) or EMT also. To a certain extent the add on parts are a home rule issue, dictated more by what services you provide than anything else.

But where it gets really sticky is in the minds of your fellow members. When are you a firefighter? probably somewhere after your first real working fire and somewhere before your 100th one. We had a group come out of a FF1 class last year, and almost all of the membership had the attitude that now all they needed were a few fires to really understand what is going on. Most of them were at the same big fire in another district and still there were a good number of us saying, OK that's one, but they shouldn't think that's it. Earning this title is very fluid and subjective.

What is a Probationary? This is both an easy one and a hard one, because the answer is usually a matter of policy. For us Probation starts the day you join and is a minimum of six months, it can last as long as 18 months. FF1 is one of the requirements to come off of probation in our department. For the entire time you are on probation you are issued an orange shield that says probationary on it.

However this does not always mean that you are not qualified as an Interior Firefighter. It simply means that either the time is not up or you have not taken our internal test to come off probation. We have had two members in recent the last couple of years that came in already certified FF1, they still wear the Probationary shield until the other requirements are met. We have another applicant who is certified coming in and he will also do this. Now to be fair these members usually serve a shorter probation than others but no one can serve less than a 6 month probation.

In most career departments probation is a matter of a set time in a contract. The academy (or other basic training) is much shorter, due to the fact that employees are available full time. It is not unusual to see someone several months out of the academy who is still on probation. and visibly identified as such.

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Good post Booger, very direct and to the point. Seems like yesterday when you walked through the door and got your orange sheild. how longs it been?

[gamewell45 258]

Maybe its me ,but I read the thread as a question that asks what is needed to be considered a "legal" firefighter,not what evryone's opinion of one should be.In other words,if Department X has 15 exterior members and 12 interior firefighters,does that department advertise to the public that it has 27 firefighters available should their services be needed?Again maybe its me.

I think the answer to your question is that most departments woiuld say "we have 27 members" and not differentiate between the breakdown. I've yet to see any fire department (Although its qute possible) describe themselves to the public as consisting of a department of "x" amount of interior firefighters, exterior firefighters, paid truck drivers, aministrative firefighters, fire-police, junior firefighters, cooks, house watchmen, firefighter/dspatcher, etc. I think most generalize their numbers most likely since the public could care less.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I think most generalize their numbers most likely since the public could care less.

Is it the public could care less or we are afraid to tell them (and ourselves) how bad things are?

[gamewell45 258]

Is it the public could care less or we are afraid to tell them (and ourselves) how bad things are?

In all honesty, If a member of the public approached me and asked for a breakdown, i'd have no problem with being upfront with him and giving him a break down if thats what he wanted to know. But I really think the average person, aside from those in the fire service or a buff does not care. They (the public) are more concerned with taxes most of the time. In the eyes of the public, a firefighter is a firefighter irreguardless of what function that person serves at the fire station or on the scene.

Edited April 17, 2009 by gamewell45

[Beekman 5]

Hey Dan,

I think I know who you are referring to and he will be spoken to as he is NOT Interior as he hasn't completed Firefighter Survival. The Chiefs Council came out with an Interior Standard a few years but I haven't a clue which departments are compliant as I know of departments that still don't have their folks complete physicals. This really becomes an issue when you have mutual aid departments on a call and you don't know what level their guys are trained to.

It's funny how you mentioned it though as the Beekman Officers will be discussing the "Probie" subject on Monday night. Fuel for the fire.

Thanks Dan.

Some neighboring departments by me do the same as far as the shields go, but let me ask you this - does the orange signify probationary, or exterior? I always just thought a probie was an exterior member till they got off, then they could start "goin' in".....but I had my eyes opened by a good department here in Dutchess, who uses the orange/probie shield ID system, but at a multi alarm fire, he was packed up, with tools, a light, the whole 9. It hit me....just because a member is on probation, doesnt mean they cant fight fire...it all depends on the level of training. Thank you Beekman.

To answer the question, if it even has an answer...it depends on the person joining up. The sooner you can get your basic qualifications and some time under your belt - the better your chances are to be a full fledged firefighter as soon as possible.

[gss131 212]

"In the eyes of the public, a firefighter is a firefighter irreguardless of what function that person serves at the fire station or on the scene." Because they don't know the difference.

[gamewell45 258]

"In the eyes of the public, a firefighter is a firefighter irreguardless of what function that person serves at the fire station or on the scene." Because they don't know the difference.

You are so correct; additionally, most of them don't care to know the difference. We generally don't come to mind unless we're needed. They call; we respond. Thats where it starts and thats where it ends most of the time.

[helicopper 1,050]

"In the eyes of the public, a firefighter is a firefighter irreguardless of what function that person serves at the fire station or on the scene." Because they don't know the difference.

That's true but in the public eyes when they call a firefighter whoever responds is going to be fully qualified to perform whatever job is required. After all, that's why they called the fire department. And of course William Shatner will be narrating everything...

The public's expectation is probably much higher than we anticipate. What if anything do we do to educate them about reality?

[Remember585 815]

That's true but in the public eyes when they call a firefighter whoever responds is going to be fully qualified to perform whatever job is required. After all, that's why they called the fire department. And of course William Shatner will be narrating everything...

The public's expectation is probably much higher than we anticipate. What if anything do we do to educate them about reality?

Good point, but most people in good ole' Westchester don't realize the difference between paid and volunteer firefighters and EMS, they see a cop at their door, and barely take notice of which agency they're from, and for the most part, people don't really acknowledge our existence until they need us or we somehow "impede" their lives. If you don't beleive me, look at the voter turnouts from the community when there's an issue regarding the local FD. The turnout is generally low, is made up of members, family members, friends of someone in the FD or EMS and the few older people who still beleive that voting is a responsibility and not just "something to do."

I am a volunteer firefighter and I was an EMT. I have been called a professional fireman, a****** volunteer, hero, moron, paramedic, cop, officer, that kid down the street and even been the brother of that girl that used to play with my kids. Nobody REALLY knows, nor do most of them care.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

"In the eyes of the public, a firefighter is a firefighter irreguardless of what function that person serves at the fire station or on the scene." Because they don't know the difference.

Really? So if you go to a hospital then everyone wearing a lab coat is a doctor to you because you don't know the difference. You know when they know the difference? When things go horribly wrong or they don't get the service they deserve.

When does the new guy stop being the new guy? When you learn his first name and in many many cases as I've seen when they actually come back after often feeling alienated for being the new guy.

When at work...when we tell them they are no longer a new guy.

[gss131 212]

Just for the record,"In the eyes of the public, a firefighter is a firefighter irreguardless of what function that person serves at the fire station or on the scene." is gamewell's post.