Chicago Family Finds Man's Body 2 Days after Fire

[x635 4,066]

Chicago fire: Family finds West Side man's body 2 days after blaze

Crosby Lipscomb was one of three men who lived in the basement apartment in East Garfield Park

By Sara Olkon | Tribune reporter

April 9, 2009

For two days, fire officials apparently missed the body of a man who had been living inside an East Garfield Park home where a fire broke out Monday morning, Larry Langford, spokesman for the Chicago Fire Department, said Wednesday.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/c...,0,966032.story

[markmets415 524]

What excuse will be used here? and how can they even have one.

[JFLYNN 681]

What excuse will be used here? and how can they even have one.

Judge not lest ye be judged...we have extremely little info. at this point..."Brother"...

[markmets415 524]

Judge not lest ye be judged...we have extremely little info. at this point..."Brother"...

it is not a judgement, it is a statement....."Chief"....

[IzzyEng4 427]

This is not the first time this has happened in recent time. There have been other fires (structure, car, ect.) where remains have been discovered some time after an incident. If I'm not mistaken, one occurred late last year at a structure fire somewhere in the mid-west where the remains were discovered a day or two later. Before that there was a car fire where the same thing happened and remains were not recovered until a few hours after the car had been towed because the remains were so disintegrated they look like they were part of the vehicle's interior.

Anyone who has come across remains after serious fire knows sometimes it is hard to identify and locate them if it is not obvious.

We'll see what happens.

[Guest Firediver]

Were there family members asking the FD to look/check again b/c the person in the car/ owner of the house has not appeared? answered calls? as in this case?

Possibly it would not come across as a "statement" or being judgmental if you were to pose your curiosity as a question? something like " I'm curious to see how the city of Chicago FD explains the fact that his body was missed during the primary, secondary, overhaul and even the crew that boarded up the house?" This is just a suggestion as to not be perceived as a MMQB.

Remember that there are NO STUPID QUESTIONS!! but there are STUPID STATEMENTS!!!

Edited April 9, 2009 by markmets415
spelling

[markmets415 524]

Were there family members asking the FD to look/check again b/c the person in the car/ owner of the house has not appeared? answered calls? as in this case?

Possibly it would not come across as a "statement" or being judgmental if you were to pose your curiosity as a question? something like " I'm curious to see how the city of Chicago FD explains the fact that his body was missed during the primary, secondary, overhaul and even the crew that boarded up the house?" This is just a suggestion as to not be perceived as a MMQB.

Remember that there are NO STUPID QUESTIONS!! but there are STUPID STATEMENTS!!!

Diver I respect this forum and the members here, had I "worded" my statement such as you did it most likely may have been perceived differently by some, however there are those that would still have found it necessary to question the very fact that this is even being questioned, you know that as well as I do, thank you for your insight.

[JBE 328]

OK, here's the question. How is the CFD going to explain this??

[Guest Firediver]

Too easy!

[firemoose827 324]

Well, I think that support should be offered to the guys in Chicago who are probably going insane with guilt right now, and let them know we are behind them. Mistakes are made every day, and people learn from them. I wonder how many people here have seen a body burnt in a fire? I have seen 4...It isnt pretty, and it isnt obvious sometimes either, sometimes they are unrecognizable.

I will keep the gang in Chicago in my thoughts, and my condolences to the family of the victim, may he Rest In Peace.

[x635 4,066]

A similar situation has happened somewhere in the HV in the mid-1990's. Upon arrival, the FD has heavy flames showing from a single story wood frame ranch with partial collapse. They couldn't force entry through the front door, as they were met with heavy fire and detiorating structural conditions. Neighbors were unsure if there was anyone inside the residence, and a thorough primary and secondary search was performed. The next morning, the family shows up and confirms that the victim had to be inside the residence. During overhaul, the front door was removed and severly charred, barely reconizable remains were found under the door. The investigation believed the victim was trying to put out the fire (which originated in the basement) when she realized she couldn't, and tried to escape, and was overcome by smoke just as she reached the door. There was no fire alarm, and neighbors called in the fire when they saw flames.

Being in EMS for 12 years, and going in and out of hundreds of peoples houses, it doesn't suprise me if sometimes a victim is overlooked for various reasons, especially in "colliers mansion" type conditions, situations with heavy fire conditions, and/or structural deteriotion. Often, there are elderly people who no one cares about, or only are checked on a few times each month. Sometimes, there's no immediate way of knowing because the damage and debris are so intense. Many of us know the smell of a deceased person who hasn't been checked on for weeks in the summertime-and the only reason we were called was because of the smell-or in one case-leakage.

We really don't know what happened, and as mentioned above, no one could have let people know that this guy was inside DURING the incident. The family or media can be painting a completly different picture. It also sounds like he was in a dark basement, in possibly a rooming house. It's hard for me to believe that Chicago FD wouldn't find this guy if there were relatives on scene telling them he was inside. Chicago FD is a really good department.

Very sad story whatever the true details come out to be.

[Remember585 815]

I don't think we should make excuses, but I can see how this happens. I've been to a few fires where there's been so much crap in the building or apartment where you can't find the floor, doors, beds, etc. Even using a TIC you're not going to find a body if it is deeply covered by junk, in a closet hidden behind shelves or mirrors, etc. People always seem to find new and amazing way of storing their stuff, and people are even finding ways to fit people into places that shouldn't even be considered living spaces.

[helicopper 1,050]

I don't think we should make excuses, but I can see how this happens. I've been to a few fires where there's been so much crap in the building or apartment where you can't find the floor, doors, beds, etc. Even using a TIC you're not going to find a body if it is deeply covered by junk, in a closet hidden behind shelves or mirrors, etc. People always seem to find new and amazing way of storing their stuff, and people are even finding ways to fit people into places that shouldn't even be considered living spaces.

Moreover you won't find a body with the TIC if the temperature of the body and surrounding environment are the same - such as in a fire. Also keep in mind that thermal imaging cameras do not see THROUGH anything. Someone could be on the other side of a closed door and you won't see them unless there's a temperature difference on the door itself. TIC's are great tools but they're not magic and the lack of understanding of their proper use has caused major misunderstandings in the legal community so do yourselves all a favor, train with and use the TIC often!!!

As for this Chicago fire, there have been no official statements and the investigation is only just beginning. Perhaps we'd be best served by waiting for some more information???

[ltmdepas3280 1]

I have had two fires during my career where a body was almost overlooked ......both times it was on the last sweep of the building that the person was found.....don't judge to harshly ....something aren't that obvious.

[Guest]

Await autopsy, was he really in the building at the time of the fire or placed in afterwards.