911 worker didn't warn Pittsburgh police of guns

[x635 4,066]

As I mentioned in another thread, proper 911 calltaking plays a crucial role in responder's safety:

911 worker didn't warn Pittsburgh police of guns

PITTSBURGH – The mother of a man charged with killing three Pittsburgh police officers told a 911 dispatcher he had weapons, but the dispatcher didn't relay that information to officers, the official in charge of county dispatchers says.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090407/ap_on_...sburgh_shooting

[Guest Local596Secretary]

My gut reaction here is that this information should have been kept "in house". I think that for the Police Chief to make this statement to the press can not help any of the victims families, the public, or the police officers themselves. This dispatcher should have been dealt with internally and removed from his posistion and shown his walking papers. Those officers died because some rat a***ole decided he was going to unload on them. This is monday morning quarterbacking at it's worst.

[Bull McCaffrey 162]

My gut reaction here is that this information should have been kept "in house". I think that for the Police Chief to make this statement to the press can not help any of the victims families, the public, or the police officers themselves. This dispatcher should have been dealt with internally and removed from his posistion and shown his walking papers. Those officers died because some rat a***ole decided he was going to unload on them. This is monday morning quarterbacking at it's worst.

Why should this be kept "in house"? The fact that this guy had guns in the house dispatch knew about it yet failed to inform the responding officers to me seems like a fatal error on his/her part. Had these officers known this little piece of information, things might have turned out quite differently that morning.

Firemen, EMTs and especially cops are held under a microscope when performing their duties. Why should dispatchers be any different? I sure this person feels horrible for the way things turned out but the fact of the matter is that he or she quite possible played an indirect role in the death of these 3 officers by withholding pertinent information.

Hopefully, by making the details of the incident available to the public, it prevents another tragedy such as this from happening.

[Oswegowind 17]

My gut reaction here is that this information should have been kept "in house". I think that for the Police Chief to make this statement to the press can not help any of the victims families, the public, or the police officers themselves. This dispatcher should have been dealt with internally and removed from his posistion and shown his walking papers. Those officers died because some rat a***ole decided he was going to unload on them. This is monday morning quarterbacking at it's worst.

"IN HOUSE" What?????!!!!!!!

It is the dispatcher's RESPONSIBILITY to relay all PERTINENT and IMPORTANT information especially if it involves any type of hazard or danger that the responders may encounter! This is 100% on that dispatcher. I am a dispatcher and constantly see people omit information for what appears to be one stupid reason after another. I have heard things like..."I didn't see that..." or "It didn't sound true..." Come ON! As a dispatcher our 1st and most important responsibility is to provide information to all of the services responding that will keep them SAFE! I don't care what someone's gut feeling is! If a caller tells you there is a GUN then you tell the officer's that there is a GUN! Domestics and traffic stops are the most common types of incidents in which police officer's lose their lives. As a dispatcher I hope that I never have to deal with such a thing, but I am damn well prepared to first give the info, second pay attention, and third get them help when it is needed! I may not know all of the officer's I work with, but I consider them family while we are working together, even if I don't care for them personally!

I hope every dispatcher on this forum reads this article and gets chills, because if this doesn't bother you, you need to get a new job!

[moggie6 54]

Hopefully this will be an eye opening to all dispatchers to relay all information to the units in the field. I know in certain county level dispatch centers there is information that is sometimes not relayed between police and fire to those responding. Often times the link between police, fire and ems is the dispatcher because there is no common frequency.

[Guest Local596Secretary]

Perhaps I hadn't made myself clear. The dispatcher is absolutely at fault. He neglected to inform the officers of an extreme threat for whatever stupid reason. He made an error which, quite possibly, cost the officers thier lives. My point here is that putting the statement out to the public has now squarely placed all blame on the dispatcher.

All of a sudden, the public has an official to blame for the events. The cause of these deaths is no longer on the shooter. The man who pulled the trigger while aiming at officer's faces no longer holds real blame. The public will now view this dispatcher as a criminal. He knew the blame rested with him. The city knew the blame rested with him. He has to live his life knowing what his mistake has caused. Making it a public tar and feathering is wrong.

This information should be disseminated to emergency service workers as a learning tool. We all read the "close calls" and after incident findings that help us to learn what not to do. Why should this be any different.

[Oswegowind 17]

The man who did the shooting decided to do the shooting on his own. He is still a murderer.

However, officers may have approached the incident more prepared and possibly in a different manner if they knew the subject had access to a GUN. Many times we get calls about disputes through a third party, not at scene who may not have enough information, however when someone at the scene gives you precise information, that info must be given to everyone involved so that they can make an educated decision as to handling the incident. In cases where it is a 3rd party, not involved, I make sure the officers know that we don't have all the facts and they have to use their heads and take precautions because you never know what is about to happen.

Yes, everything is 20/20 in hindsight, but the basic notion that this press release take the onus of murder away from the actual murderer is not true. He killed them. However, the inaction of the dispatcher caused these officers to enter a situation without critical decision making facts that may of changed the outcome. I am a dispatcher as it says over there on the left, I worked on the "street" as an EMT for years before I took this job, so my perspective may differ. However, I uphold my self to the same standard I feel everyone should be held to and that is DO YOUR DAMN JOB RIGHT! I don't care what person took the call...if it says something I tell whoever I am sending exactly what the calltaker says is going on. If I don't and something happens, I expect to be held responsible for my inaction!

If more people took responsibility, we wouldn't have to have this conversation! That person made a conscious decision to omit information, so be it, they have to live with the fact that their inaction may have led to each of those deaths. It saddens me that in this day and age of civil liability and litigation more persons don't "get it". What you do and what you don't do can cost you so much...and if "jobs" would begin to hold their personnel responsible for the smallest things I believe that these types of situation can be avoided in the long run!

[Guest Local596Secretary]

The man who did the shooting decided to do the shooting on his own. He is still a murderer.

However, officers may have approached the incident more prepared and possibly in a different manner if they knew the subject had access to a GUN. Many times we get calls about disputes through a third party, not at scene who may not have enough information, however when someone at the scene gives you precise information, that info must be given to everyone involved so that they can make an educated decision as to handling the incident. In cases where it is a 3rd party, not involved, I make sure the officers know that we don't have all the facts and they have to use their heads and take precautions because you never know what is about to happen.

Yes, everything is 20/20 in hindsight, but the basic notion that this press release take the onus of murder away from the actual murderer is not true. He killed them. However, the inaction of the dispatcher caused these officers to enter a situation without critical decision making facts that may of changed the outcome. I am a dispatcher as it says over there on the left, I worked on the "street" as an EMT for years before I took this job, so my perspective may differ. However, I uphold my self to the same standard I feel everyone should be held to and that is DO YOUR DAMN JOB RIGHT! I don't care what person took the call...if it says something I tell whoever I am sending exactly what the calltaker says is going on. If I don't and something happens, I expect to be held responsible for my inaction!

If more people took responsibility, we wouldn't have to have this conversation! That person made a conscious decision to omit information, so be it, they have to live with the fact that their inaction may have led to each of those deaths. It saddens me that in this day and age of civil liability and litigation more persons don't "get it". What you do and what you don't do can cost you so much...and if "jobs" would begin to hold their personnel responsible for the smallest things I believe that these types of situation can be avoided in the long run!

100% true and well put. Please understand my point though. What does making this public do? Why does the public need to know what this dispatcher did? This screw up should be documented, and spread through the emergency services alone so that we may all learn from it. The same way we all learn from the mistakes we have read about in "close calls" or from "incident reports". It turns out that the dispatcher has not actually been named as of yet. They have been placed on suspended leave and have been offered counseling. She has less than one year on the job including her training time (not that it changes anything). Let's not be so quick to tar and feather people in public. It can be handled appropriately in house.

[Oswegowind 17]

100% true and well put. Please understand my point though. What does making this public do? Why does the public need to know what this dispatcher did? This screw up should be documented, and spread through the emergency services alone so that we may all learn from it. The same way we all learn from the mistakes we have read about in "close calls" or from "incident reports". It turns out that the dispatcher has not actually been named as of yet. They have been placed on suspended leave and have been offered counseling. She has less than one year on the job including her training time (not that it changes anything). Let's not be so quick to tar and feather people in public. It can be handled appropriately in house.

Because the public has the right to know. As a civil servant you take a job to work for the public. I understand that it makes all of us dispatchers look like we can't do our jobs, but maybe this is the last time we will read about this type of incident because people will start doing what they are supposed to do. I am tired of hearing about "black eyes", if you don't like it, don't be the reason and don't let the person sitting next to you be the reason. I am a firm believer that secrecy is not the answer, people need to learn from not only their mistakes, but the mistakes of others. If the dispatcher had saved a life, I expect to read about that too. Do good, look good! Do bad, too bad!

[Bull McCaffrey 162]

100% true and well put. Please understand my point though. What does making this public do? Why does the public need to know what this dispatcher did? This screw up should be documented, and spread through the emergency services alone so that we may all learn from it. The same way we all learn from the mistakes we have read about in "close calls" or from "incident reports". It turns out that the dispatcher has not actually been named as of yet. They have been placed on suspended leave and have been offered counseling. She has less than one year on the job including her training time (not that it changes anything). Let's not be so quick to tar and feather people in public. It can be handled appropriately in house.

I wonder if you would be so quick to "cover things up" if this was a video of a police officer using excessive force to arrest some criminal. Should that also be handled "in house" or should it be made public (as those types of videos always are) so that everyone can second guess the officer?

[JBE 328]

No way should this have been swept under the rug, kept out of the public eye, whatever you want to call it. This dispatcher screwed up and screwed up royally. I just hope some grieving relative doesn't try to extract their pound of flesh out of this guy with a lawsuit. He's gotta be suffering enough.

[TSull 33]

No way should this have been swept under the rug, kept out of the public eye, whatever you want to call it. This dispatcher screwed up and screwed up royally. I just hope some grieving relative doesn't try to extract their pound of flesh out of this guy with a lawsuit. He's gotta be suffering enough.

Of course some one is going to file a lawsuit. And a defense lawyer would jump all over that "omitted" fact to get a murder conviction dropped down to manslaughter.

[Guest]

This calltaker should be arrested for negligent homicide. How do you not relay that to someone! It makes me angry to even think about it.

[x635 4,066]

As I said in another thread, proper calltaking and dispatching saves lives.

[JBE 328]

This calltaker should be arrested for negligent homicide. How do you not relay that to someone! It makes me angry to even think about it.

I think that's a bit much. Even if he had told the cops this guy was armed, would it have stopped the shooter from pulling the trigger?? We can't speculate that the inactions of the call taker cost these cops their lives, it may or may not have changed the situation. That's like saying if I don't relay to the first in truck that we got a report of a person trapped that I am responsible for that person dying. I didn't kill that person, the smoke or fire did. You can't say that even if I had told the first in truck this person was trapped, that they weren't gonna be killed. To hold this guy criminally responsible is too severe.

[Guest Local596Secretary]

I think that's a bit much. Even if he had told the cops this guy was armed, would it have stopped the shooter from pulling the trigger?? We can't speculate that the inactions of the call taker cost these cops their lives, it may or may not have changed the situation. That's like saying if I don't relay to the first in truck that we got a report of a person trapped that I am responsible for that person dying. I didn't kill that person, the smoke or fire did. You can't say that even if I had told the first in truck this person was trapped, that they weren't gonna be killed. To hold this guy criminally responsible is too severe.

Thanks for keeping a level head and understanding what I am trying to say. I think you made my point when you used the person trapped scenario. Some more information that some might not be aware...

The mother of the man who killed the officers called 911 to have him removed from the home. She stated he just comes and goes and is no longer welcome in her home. The son has ignored her requests to leave in the past. The mom woke up from a nap, realized her son was there, and called 911. There was no arguing, no fighting, no physical anything involved during the call. When the dispatcher asked if there were weapons, the mother stated yes and that they were legal. The mom was calm, collected, and just wanted someone else to take care of the problem.

This does not excuse the dispatcher whatsoever. She screwed up. Her inexperience and complacency may have contributed to the deaths of the officers. Her co-workers know what happened and that is fine. Other dispatchers should know so they can avoid these mistakes. I just don't think her neighbors need to know.

FYI- to the poster that asked whether I would jump on an officer video taped for alleged brutality...ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! If you know me or anyone who does, then you will know I am the first person in the room to say that what you see on TV is worthless and not the whole story!

[Guest]

I think that's a bit much. Even if he had told the cops this guy was armed, would it have stopped the shooter from pulling the trigger?? We can't speculate that the inactions of the call taker cost these cops their lives, it may or may not have changed the situation. That's like saying if I don't relay to the first in truck that we got a report of a person trapped that I am responsible for that person dying. I didn't kill that person, the smoke or fire did. You can't say that even if I had told the first in truck this person was trapped, that they weren't gonna be killed. To hold this guy criminally responsible is too severe.

Not anywhere near the same. When I pull up 1st or 2nd due it is in my duties to search for someone regardless if I know they are there or not. It would be the same as you NOT saying use universal precautions when an AIDS clinic calls to say they have a guy with a severe arterial bleed and its spraying everywhere.

For this guy to shoot not 1 but 3 officers and kill them how can it be justified that she did not contribute to any of their deaths? I find a lot of dispatchers are lazy, how hard would it have been to hit the alert button a few times and state, caller states guns in the home? It would have changed the whole situation, especially for the guys going in to it.

[emt301 4]

For this guy to shoot not 1 but 3 officers and kill them how can it be justified that she did not contribute to any of their deaths? I find a lot of dispatchers are lazy, how hard would it have been to hit the alert button a few times and state, caller states guns in the home? It would have changed the whole situation, especially for the guys going in to it.

From all reports it certainly looks like the 911 dispatcher screwed up in this incident, and this mistake certainly may have contributed to the officers fate. It's a true tragedy for all involved. However, I'm wondering why the "I find a lot of dispatchers are lazy" remark. Doesn't seem to accomplish anything positive here. There are plenty of lazy folks out there in ALL fields of employment, in both the public and private sector, in all fields. Most of us have come across them at some point in our lives. Yes, this unfortunately includes some dispatchers, and yes, unfortunately, even some firefighters, cops, & EMS workers too. What I think we need to remember here is that the majority of dispatchers out there really care about doing the job well, just as do the majority of our brother/sister firefighters, police officers, and EMS workers.

Edited April 8, 2009 by emt301

[JBE 328]

roof, here's another situation where you and I will agree to disagree. But kindly put the spoon down with the lazy remark. I will stand by my statement that no matter what this guy did, he was wrong not to make the necessary notifications. The situation went horribly sour, but blame can't be placed squarely on their shoulders. There are other factors, like the mindset of the perp, who I truly hope rots in jail or gets the needle.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

It's better to make it public on their own accord then have to deal with the frenzy if that information was leaked. Once it appears you are hiding something the gauntlet begins.

In addition...the fact that this information was not relayed was in fact itself a huge blunder on that dispatchers shoulders. The reference to not using universal precautions is interesting as I was thinking to myself as a provider that AIDS clinic or not I wear appropriate PPE on every call. Just as every officer treats domestics with the same sense of awareness as these tend to be highly emotional calls that are on the top of list for officer injuries and deaths regardless of what the information passed along pertains. These professionals were ambushed through the door. If they had that information it perhaps could have lead to a different outcome. Unfortunately their families nor the Pittsburgh PD family never will.

I can guarantee you that with the communication that occurs with PD's with such incidents like this and across the DOJ spectrum many departments will look at their system and make changes and train on such occurances. The one thing that I wish we as the fire service would learn from law enforcement is the sharing of information and the often immediate actions that take place due to another agencies misfortune and tragedy.

[Guest]

It's better to make it public on their own accord then have to deal with the frenzy if that information was leaked. Once it appears you are hiding something the gauntlet begins.

In addition...the fact that this information was not relayed was in fact itself a huge blunder on that dispatchers shoulders. The reference to not using universal precautions is interesting as I was thinking to myself as a provider that AIDS clinic or not I wear appropriate PPE on every call.

I am sure you wear your gown and eye shields on every run.

This entire industry is all about information. When you hold it back, a piece of the puzzle is missing, notice how I said hold it back, not have it. I have the right to say that some dispatchers are lazy. If I had that job I would do everything I could to give info to the guys going in, including checking call backs before. A guy who has since got on FDNY was a FDNY Dispatcher before, he was one of the best, would tell you where to look, what to expect, he would have been the next warren fuchs had he stayed.

I have said this before and it still doesnt get done, not in NYC but other places due North. Why not give the volunteers real cross streets. Most of the dispatchers in Putnam are great, but when they give cross streets that are 4 MILES long its kind of difficult to get a bearing.