Mattydales

[FFPCogs 863]

What's the consesus on Matydales? I have over the years come to believe that strecthing lines (preconnected or not) off the rear of the rig is the way to go as opposed to the now "traditional" crosslays. The reason for this is twofold

1) When using crosslays the placement of the rig is many times wrong. Drivers have a natural tendency to line the mattydales on the rig up with the front door. Now I know we're all trained to pull past blah blah blah, but the fact is (and I've personally witnessed this more times than I can count) we end up with improper placement more often than not. Slow busy, paid volunteer it doesnt matter that first due engine usually ends up hampering Truck placement. By strectching off the rear it becomes the natural tendency to line up the rig for the most direct access to the front door, thus they normally pull past leaving the front of the building open for the Truck.

2) The chauffeur has less interference when stretching off the back since the only line at the panel is the feed line coming in. Gone is the tangle of hoses stretched in front of the pump panel and under foot, hence a safer operating area.

Any thoughts?

Cogs

Edited March 26, 2009 by FFPCogs

[markmets415 524]

Our first due engine is a top mount pump so the crosslays generally do not obstruct the operators access to the panel.

One other advantage to the rear pull is that there is usually more hose packed there as opposed to the normal 200' preconnect; if more line is needed it is just pulled. We have 300' preconnected off the rear; the extra 100' helps with a longer line stretch to the rear or 2nd floor.

Cogs point #1 is an excellent point as far as pulling off the rear and the placement, thus leaving room for the truck, if you have one or one is coming under M/A.

[CFD320 35]

I have no issues with crosslays on rigs in general but pre-connected beds lead to either sort stretching or line spaghetti. Properly controlling a stretch is one of the more difficult tasks on the fireground, this in my opinion is the reason why pre-connected beds have become common place. For most suburban departments who protect primarily single and two family private dwellings, running with two pre-connected beds (3 lengths and 4 lengths) of attack line will handle 90% of their fire incidents. These pre-connected beds are particularly useful for volunteer departments where staffing on the first due engine may be minimal, two men can easily stretch a 4 length mattydale of 1 3/4 line, there is no need for the "control" man to return to the panel to hand off to the chauffeur and convey hose diameter, number of lengths, nozzle type and tip, and what floor the fire is on. A simple radio transmission of "bed #1 to the second floor" allows the chauffer to calculate his "street hydraulics" because "bed #1" is always run for instance; 4 lengths of 2" attack line with 1 1/2" controlling nozzle with 15/16 MST he adds the floor for head loss/gain and bingo.

Now, I do agree that mattydales are partially responsible for poor engine placement but for a slightly different reason that you cited. The use of mattydales in conjunction with In line pumping (taking hydrant before fire building and laying in) almost strong arms chauffeurs to stop smack in front of the fire building because he doesn't want to have to repack more LDH and he is afraid of short stretching if he were to pull completely past the fire building. Ultimately, poor engine placement falls on the shoulders of the chauffeur and no one else. The City of New York is certainly a different world because of the hydrant frequency on blocks but their SOP is to backstretch attack line (where the chauffeur stops with the back step even with the front door, the attack team pulls their necessary folds then the engine proceeds to a hydrant after the fire building) in most cases ensures that the first due truck will have the opportunity to take a good position in front of the fire building. Obviously, back stretching with a mattydale bed is not going to work...

As far as the interference goes, maybe I'm old school but I prefer to have everything possible at my panel when I am operating. I was taught never to trust a gauge and there is no better test of a flowing hoseline than to stand on it and feel how much, if at all, it gives when you put wight on it. If I have a hose team calling me saying they need more pressure and I stand on the line and it is like a rock and flowing water I know that I have a kink issue and increasing the pressure is not the answer to my troubles. If my panel is on the outboard side of the incident and the mattydales are pulled off the inboard side, they may be out of my way but now I may need a helper to check on them for me because I am married to that panel once I have men in an IDLH area. I will happily deal with the tangle as it can be quite useful to me as the MPO.

[firemoose827 324]

I have no issues with crosslays on rigs in general but pre-connected beds lead to either sort stretching or line spaghetti. Properly controlling a stretch is one of the more difficult tasks on the fireground, this in my opinion is the reason why pre-connected beds have become common place. For most suburban departments who protect primarily single and two family private dwellings, running with two pre-connected beds (3 lengths and 4 lengths) of attack line will handle 90% of their fire incidents. These pre-connected beds are particularly useful for volunteer departments where staffing on the first due engine may be minimal, two men can easily stretch a 4 length mattydale of 1 3/4 line, there is no need for the "control" man to return to the panel to hand off to the chauffeur and convey hose diameter, number of lengths, nozzle type and tip, and what floor the fire is on. A simple radio transmission of "bed #1 to the second floor" allows the chauffer to calculate his "street hydraulics" because "bed #1" is always run for instance; 4 lengths of 2" attack line with 1 1/2" controlling nozzle with 15/16 MST he adds the floor for head loss/gain and bingo.

Now, I do agree that mattydales are partially responsible for poor engine placement but for a slightly different reason that you cited. The use of mattydales in conjunction with In line pumping (taking hydrant before fire building and laying in) almost strong arms chauffeurs to stop smack in front of the fire building because he doesn't want to have to repack more LDH and he is afraid of short stretching if he were to pull completely past the fire building. Ultimately, poor engine placement falls on the shoulders of the chauffeur and no one else. The City of New York is certainly a different world because of the hydrant frequency on blocks but their SOP is to backstretch attack line (where the chauffeur stops with the back step even with the front door, the attack team pulls their necessary folds then the engine proceeds to a hydrant after the fire building) in most cases ensures that the first due truck will have the opportunity to take a good position in front of the fire building. Obviously, back stretching with a mattydale bed is not going to work...

As far as the interference goes, maybe I'm old school but I prefer to have everything possible at my panel when I am operating. I was taught never to trust a gauge and there is no better test of a flowing hoseline than to stand on it and feel how much, if at all, it gives when you put wight on it. If I have a hose team calling me saying they need more pressure and I stand on the line and it is like a rock and flowing water I know that I have a kink issue and increasing the pressure is not the answer to my troubles. If my panel is on the outboard side of the incident and the mattydales are pulled off the inboard side, they may be out of my way but now I may need a helper to check on them for me because I am married to that panel once I have men in an IDLH area. I will happily deal with the tangle as it can be quite useful to me as the MPO.

Excellent points CFD, exactly my thoughts too. I would rather have the line there for me to check and be able to react quicker to the loss of pressure than to have to circle the truck to check every line every time a team calls for more pressure. Good points by all.

Crosslays are easier to get to for the attack team exiting the cab, but I agree, the extra hose piled up on the ground is a pain sometimes. My department trains to pull Everything off the bed, then advance. My old dept trained to take what you needed and brake it off and connect to the panel so there is no excess hose piled up on the ground causing a trip hazard for the MPO. Im trying to get my current dept to use the minute man load for the cross lays to avoid this situation, but if you are not an officer your pretty much out of luck.

Good topic.

[antiquefirelt 994]

We too have experienced difficulties making preconnected crosslays work. The rear bed preconnects tend to lay out better and generally are much easier to add to or to marry to a larger line to get more length. The crosslays tend to be more difficult to pull on congested streets, with cars, trash cans, bushes, etc. messing up the stretch. A main bed lay allows you a whole street to make the hose clear the bed. Here's some of what we've found with the ones we've tried:

Special Load Crosslays or speedlays: harder to stretch on congested streets. Always more complex to load and the reload is specific to the bed width length and height. These include triple layer loads, minuteman loads and modification or similar loads. I will note the Minuteman does pull nicely 99% of the time regardless of street conditions as you need merely 8 feet to clear all the hose from the bed and you take the load with you to the objective. While the minuteman load take only the length of the bed to clear all the hose, the triple layer takes 33% of it's length or 66 ft for a 200 foot precon.

Basic flat load crosslay/speedlays: Unless you have decent manpower these are problematic. It's too easy to end up with most of the hose on or at the engine once you reach the initial objective (front door). Very easy to load, and can be modified with pulling loops. Does one guy pay all the hose onto the ground while someone else pulls the whole thing which gets heavier and longer as you go? Or does one FF take the first 100 feet and a second take the remaining? What happens when you get all the hose clear of the bed and the hose is off? Do you drop what your carrying here and pick-up just a few folds?

Rear bed special loads: Includes horseshoe, triple layer, and modified loads. The horseshoe works well to bring a working length or two with you and this can be connect to either a larger line or static bed for much greater length and versatility. The triple layer works well here as you have open street to complete the stretch, even if you can get 6-8 feet before you take a 90 degree turn it can be done with another FF at the bed pulling the remaining hose out straight. The space in the rear bed generally allows for more options and longer overall lays.

Rear bed flat loads: Probably the most common load of all, though many only use it for supply or infrequently used hose today. The major issue is still manpower. Having each FF stretch 60-100 feet (two or three folds?) each can take anywhere from 2 to 4 FFer's . Or more likely in short staffed Fd's one man runs with the nozzle and another pulls hose into the street, then must follow along clearing pinch points or corners. Of course this is the easiest to load and allows for the most versatility in length or connection options.

Our FD determined that all hoseloads needed to be evaluated for functionality. Any 200 foot attack line must able to be stretched by a single FF. The load has to end with the working length of the hose at the objective, not at the engine. Also, the load must clear the bed in as minimal distance as possible to allow for turns in direction or around cars, fences, hedges and such. This required a modifies triple layer with a horse shoe finish for our crosslay/speedlays. The load works very well, but is far too complex to reload when you don't do it at least weekly. Where bends go, how coupling lay and loop lengths are critical to the success.

We just received our new Rescue Pumper which was specced with hosewells for 200 foot donut loads. These accomplish the stretch forward off the front bumper where you have open street and no obstacles. The donut rolls un-spin when pulled and clear the well in 25 ft. The donuts are connected together forming loops through which the FF slides an arms allowing them to pull the entire loads off and proceed to the objective. When the loop closest to the hand tightens up, it is dropped as this is the first 50 feet. You're now dragging the rest of the load until the next loop tightens and is dropped. And so it goes until you run out of hose or get to the objective with all the hose left in the lay. If you stop well short of the full length the hose is already nicely formed into a 25" long "s" shape. There are two of these wells on the bumper, each holds 4 lengths of 1.75". Given the way the rolls are coupled together to form the loops, you can disconnect and reconnect at any length required. This allows for a 50 ft. trash line for dumpsters and trash cans or connecting the two hosewells for a 400 foot rear yard line (not so great on FL). The load also can be disconnect from the bumper discharge and reconnected to the 2.5" or 3" line from the main bed for real long lays, mop up or after blitz attacks. Reloading is so simple a caveman could do it. Roll the hose into a donut, place into the well, connect the couplings and you're done. Amazingly, we have yet to have a critic in our FD after they've trained on the load.

[Remember585 815]

Great posts!

When I first joined, my Engine had a preconnected 1 3/4" line in compartments over the rear wheels. They were accordian packed and anytime we needed to pull them out it was a disaster. When we designed our current Engine, we all agreed we were done with accordian packed attack lines, because they never seemed to lay out as they should and became nothing more then a pile of spaghetti at the rig.

Training is needed when it comes to stretching in. Let's face it, Engine Company guys only have one task, to line in and get the fire. Truckies have a ton of responsibilities and the good Truck Companies have it down to a science (OV, Can, Irons, etc.) so why is pulling a line in such an ordeal?

In my younger years in the Department, calls weren't as frequent as they are now nor was training nights. I remember plenty of times when I was the nozzle guy running to grab it, getting it and running to the fire. I left a knot of hose behind me and often came up short of my target. Thankfully I matured and took more training and got the experience to learn from my mistakes.

1. Learning how to size up a building an decide how long a stretch is needed is vital. Add the length and width of the building to get your base stretch length. Then add a length (50') per floor. If the building is set back or otherwise inaccessible from the street or driveway, add as needed. For example, if you have a 100' x 50' two-story private dwelling without any setback issues, 4 lengths or 200' should be sufficient.

2. Know the length of your pre-connects! If you're stretching into a warehouse, don't pull the 150' crosslay unless you know for sure that your fire is within reach and not going to move. (Because we all know fires never spread...)

3. Know your hosebed loads. I know that on our 3 Engines they all have 1400' of 5" LDH (give or take) and at least 500' of 1 3/4" and 500' of 2 1/2". (In most cases our Engines carry more). Because we run five companies in three houses, we cross-train several times per year on all of our rigs.

4. Label EVERYTHING. Again, using our Department as an example, we have three Engine Companies. A guy assigned to E118 may be asked to pull a line off of E119, but isn't familiar with it's loads. We've put large labels on all of our crosslays and hosebed so anyone pulling knows what they're getting.

5. Hoselines can be added to, aerials can't. When possible sufficient room for the Truck or Trucks should be left by earlier arriving Engines. We should all have a general idea of the room needed for the Truck's outriggers, it's scrub area, etc.

I like seeing posts like these and reading the input from everyone. Keep it coming!

[Bnechis 3,961]

2. Know the length of your pre-connects! If you're stretching into a warehouse, don't pull the 150' crosslay unless you know for sure that your fire is within reach and not going to move.

If your stretching into a warehouse, consider using a 2" or 2 1/2" line with a stright bore nozzle. You need the GPM & the reach. Consider that if they use inrack storage (like home depot or Costco) the isles maybe collapse zones, and you need to hit palitized loads (that are wrapped in plastic). also consider that the sprinklers will only work on upper fires unless inrack sprinklers are installed.