Low Pressure Air Bags

[JBJ1202 27]

I have a few questions regarding low pressure air bags:

Who has them and for how long?

How and where do you train with them?

Who is the manufacturer? (pros/cons)

What size bags do you carry?

What support equipment goes with using them?

What situations did your department need to use them?

Thank you in advance

JBJ

[16fire5 693]

Rescue Jacks might be an alternative because they address many of the situations low pressure high lift were/are used for. Rescue jacks would undoubtedly have a longer life span too.

[50-65 205]

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by "low pressure". We carry a variety of sizes. I'll have to check actual lifting capacities and sizes of each bag. These are the ones that run off a Scott bottle. The manufacturer's name escapes me right now.

We have had them for as long as I can remember. I have been a member since '95. We recently added some larger sizes.

As far as training with them, we usually incorporate them into an extrication drill which we try to do at least twice a year, although sometimes we will drill with just the bags.

We have used them to lift a tractor trailer off a person (roll over with ejection) and about a year or so ago were called mutual aid for them and our cribbing for a car under a trailer.

[JBJ1202 27]

High Pressure (120 psi)

Low Pressure (15 psi)

This is what I am basing my questioning off of. If any of this is incorrect feel free to correct me please.

JBJ

[Remember585 815]

Joe,

The only low pressure bags in my area that I know of are not in an FD, but with A&P Towing. They have a box truck full of LP bags and equipment. From what I recall all of the departments around my area, including ours, use HP bags.

[JFLYNN 681]

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by "low pressure". We carry a variety of sizes. I'll have to check actual lifting capacities and sizes of each bag. These are the ones that run off a Scott bottle. The manufacturer's name escapes me right now.

We have had them for as long as I can remember. I have been a member since '95. We recently added some larger sizes.

As far as training with them, we usually incorporate them into an extrication drill which we try to do at least twice a year, although sometimes we will drill with just the bags.

We have used them to lift a tractor trailer off a person (roll over with ejection) and about a year or so ago were called mutual aid for them and our cribbing for a car under a trailer.

If you are not sure what is meant by "low pressure" air bags, you have no business using any airbags. That is basic information which anyone who operates as a Firefighter in a department that carries low pressure, medium pressure, or high pressure airbags would need to know. QTIP

[JFLYNN 681]

High Pressure (120 psi)

Low Pressure (15 psi)

This is what I am basing my questioning off of. If any of this is incorrect feel free to correct me please.

JBJ

The bags in the pic on the bottom appear to be what is technically referred to as "medium pressure air bags"...same principle though as low pressure- you get high lift and the ability for the bags to contour or "pillow" (somewhat) to an uneven surface. Of course, you will normally still need plenty of cribbing as with high pressure low lift bags. They are also used in trench rescue to fill in a belly or a slough -in.

For certain incidents, they have advantages over low lift bags.

Key thing here is training, training, training, and reading, reading, reading...use of airbags in any department anywhere is a low frequency/ high intensity event...but, if they are carried on a rig that you may be riding, whether career or volunteer, it is your obligation to be fully competent in their use- this means a lot more than being able to hook them up to a bottle and inflate them.

Edited March 24, 2009 by moosecfd368
fixed quotes

[Guest Firediver]

the "low pressure" bags operate from the 6 or 7-10psi whereas the "high pressure" bags are in the 120psi range.( as far as I know)

[JBJ1202 27]

Thanks for the replies...

I just googled low pressure air bags for a visual reference... and added that picture.

I am very interested in the low pressure bags. My department has a good amount of interstate traffic (I-287/I-684) and I feel that this is an excellent piece of equipment to add. I have investigated different manufacturers and currently looking into the Vetter brand.

http://www.vetter.de/_Downloads/vetter/cat...%20Products.pdf (pages 14 through 19)

In the title page it states that the operating pressure is 1.45-14.5 psi. I believe this is considered low pressure… correct? Based on the numbers it seems that the bags greatest advantage is its lifting height, and not lift capacity.

585... first, sorry you are missing your CB & C night... second, I was under the impression that certain departments in Westchester carried these already, but I cannot confirm. Maybe the night shift could do some CAD searching for me…

JFLYNN... As I stated above, the primary use of the bags would be for large scale extrication in my district. I know that they have other uses as you said, but I know the initial training on them would be for the extrication use. For the training, I've heard Stiloski provides large vehicles for extrication, any others? Most of the reading material I find is just forum discussions on the matter, maybe I'm looking in the wrong place. When you say a full complement of bags, what would that be considered?

Thanks again

JBJ

[gklein4 18]

I287 is under the Thruway for any kind of accident as such you would be getting a Thruway wrecker to work with if it is a passenger car then you would be dealing with Hannigans (514) out of Port Chester & if it is a commercial Vehicle then you would have Vincent,s (505) out of Mamaroneck to work with as for I684 you would be using whoever SP Somers has on the list they use for duty towing

[rescue40 30]

dont worry joe ill be coming with the rescue or the wrecker either way lol and just for eveyones info we used ny state t-way 505 which is vincents towing with there flatbed to winch the vehicle out from under the tractor trailer at the hairrison mva last week, lifted the truck then 505 pulled it out to gain access to remove person.the tow trucks are a great resource for heavy lifting or winching during calls, any t-way tow company is usally pretty fast getting on the highway and all you have to do is ask for them

[billfitz 109]

While low pressure bags generally have 1/7 the lifting capacity of high pressure bags - they can be extremely dangerous if you are not well versed in their use: Ex- high pressure bags generally only lift 3-8" at a time before resetting - thus you are almost forced to crib (lift an inch crib an inch) as you go - the low pressure bags may lift their max height 30" plus in one shot - the danger lies if you do not stabilize the load before you lift (utilizing a chain hoist w/ webbing or wire rope). You must do this in addition to cribbing as you go - these bags resemble a tire tube in construction. and the load may roll off the bag causing deadly consequences - be careful - we carry 4 sets in the field (Rescue & Squad 11) as well as three sets on the USAR Trailer

[Bnechis 3,961]

dont worry joe ill be coming with the rescue or the wrecker either way lol and just for eveyones info we used ny state t-way 505 which is vincents towing with there flatbed to winch the vehicle out from under the tractor trailer at the hairrison mva last week, lifted the truck then 505 pulled it out to gain access to remove person.the tow trucks are a great resource for heavy lifting or winching during calls, any t-way tow company is usally pretty fast getting on the highway and all you have to do is ask for them

Every extrication course I every took tought to never drag the vehicle with the patient still in it, unless there was no other way to get them out. All that movement could cause additional complications, thats why we stabilize the vehicle before we even gain access. I was not at this call, so I'm not trying to 2nd guess, but before telling some of the newbies that this is a good way to go lets consider it a last option only.

[JFLYNN 681]

Every extrication course I every took tought to never drag the vehicle with the patient still in it, unless there was no other way to get them out. All that movement could cause additional complications, thats why we stabilize the vehicle before we even gain access. I was not at this call, so I'm not trying to 2nd guess, but before telling some of the newbies that this is a good way to go lets consider it a last option only.

Good points Bob...my point in my somewhat sarcastic post above was that you can't really learn how to use airbags from this site. What generally happens with technical rescue stuff in volunteer departments is that someone decides they need a particular piece of equipment and they buy it. They then get "trained" by the manufacturer rep or salesman. Generally this training lasts a day or less. It then goes on the rig. Further training is generally a repetition of the schpeel that the manufacturer rep gave originally only now given by the "instructors" from this department. The generally well intentioned Firefighters in possession of this equipment incorrectly assume that they are proficient in its use. They don't know what they don't know.

Technical Rescue is just that- technical. This site is a good source of info for certain things, but if you are looking to learn the basics of tech rescue, you need to get yourself in a good hands on class and in the textbooks (not just websites or magazines).

QTIP

[gklein4 18]

On the many accident's that I have been on I95 we always let the fire department do there work & only if asked to help with our equipment then we do other then that we get to the scene & wait for the fire department & ems to finish their jobs & then we move in & do our jobs

[JBJ1202 27]

While low pressure bags generally have 1/7 the lifting capacity of high pressure bags - they can be extremely dangerous if you are not well versed in their use: Ex- high pressure bags generally only lift 3-8" at a time before resetting - thus you are almost forced to crib (lift an inch crib an inch) as you go - the low pressure bags may lift their max height 30" plus in one shot - the danger lies if you do not stabilize the load before you lift (utilizing a chain hoist w/ webbing or wire rope). You must do this in addition to cribbing as you go - these bags resemble a tire tube in construction. and the load may roll off the bag causing deadly consequences - be careful - we carry 4 sets in the field (Rescue & Squad 11) as well as three sets on the USAR Trailer

Good points Bob...my point in my somewhat sarcastic post above was that you can't really learn how to use airbags from this site. What generally happens with technical rescue stuff in volunteer departments is that someone decides they need a particular piece of equipment and they buy it. They then get "trained" by the manufacturer rep or salesman. Generally this training lasts a day or less. It then goes on the rig. Further training is generally a repetition of the schpeel that the manufacturer rep gave originally only now given by the "instructors" from this department. The generally well intentioned Firefighters in possession of this equipment incorrectly assume that they are proficient in its use. They don't know what they don't know.

Technical Rescue is just that- technical. This site is a good source of info for certain things, but if you are looking to learn the basics of tech rescue, you need to get yourself in a good hands on class and in the textbooks (not just websites or magazines).

QTIP

Both points are appreciated...

Billfitz touched on the support equipment required for such operations. This equipment would not come from the same manufacturer as the bags themselves, where would you suggest I look into such equipment? I see how the construction of the bag can make a very dangerous work environment. Lifting such distances without the proper stabilization is very dangerous. We carry a variety of wood cribbing from 8x8 to 2x4, but I see how that would not be enough in these types of incidents.

JFLYNN I understand your position that it is very easy to purchase equipment and feel that you are qualified to operate with it without proper hands on training. In the price quote we received "training" on the bags is included, but as you stated this does not mean you a qualified to use it. I am very interested in some "good hands on training", and by bringing my questions to this site I was hoping I could find some direction in the subject. Where would a volunteer department get this type of training? I feel the career departments have the ability to network with each other and host these types of drill between themselves. Is private fire training instructors the way to go?

The last thing I want to do is purchase thousands of dollars of this equipment without going through the proper steps. I want the members of my department to have to correct training and equipment to handle the events that occur in the district. If outside assistance is required then I wouldn't hesitate to ask for it.

JBJ

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

I believe there is a class being offered in airbags at this years FDIC conference with lots of hand on opportunity.

[firemoose827 324]

My old rescue squad had these, they were called "Bull Bags" and could be hooked up to a vehicles exhaust system to inflate them. We used them for last resort emergencies only, in conjunction with cribbing, to remove life threats only if FD were not there yet. Only those of us with firefighting training could use them, and we had to have "Vehicle Extrication" training as well.

[antiquefirelt 994]

My old rescue squad had these, they were called "Bull Bags" and could be hooked up to a vehicles exhaust system to inflate them. We used them for last resort emergencies only, in conjunction with cribbing, to remove life threats only if FD were not there yet. Only those of us with firefighting training could use them, and we had to have "Vehicle Extrication" training as well.

We too had a set of high lift/low pressure bags with exhaust inflation tips. We took them out of service years ago in favor of hi-pressure/low lift bags. The training and use of all lifting equipment is extremely important and we could not see the justification for keeping the hi-lift's when we were cribbing an inch at a time anyway. While I'm sure it's happened and could again, I've yet to run into a scenario where we couldn't use the high pressure/low lift bags to remove a victim. Most time the amount of lift travel required is very little, but the amount of lift force can be considerable. While it's rarely bad to have as many tools in the box as you can, I'd say that your FD's ability to maintain trained competent personnel is a significant factor in adding more Hi-risk/Low Freq use equipment.

[on the job 68]

I have a few questions regarding low pressure air bags:

Who has them and for how long?

How and where do you train with them?

Who is the manufacturer? (pros/cons)

What size bags do you carry?

What support equipment goes with using them?

What situations did your department need to use them?

Thank you in advance

JBJ

I used to work for The City of Beacon Fire Dept. and they carried low pressure bags on the rescue. we only trained on them a couple times and never used them at an incident in the 5 years I was there. I do not know what..or if...they carry them at all now.

[50-65 205]

If you are not sure what is meant by "low pressure" air bags, you have no business using any airbags. That is basic information which anyone who operates as a Firefighter in a department that carries low pressure, medium pressure, or high pressure airbags would need to know. QTIP

OK. I have only ever used the one type of bag, which I now know is a high pressure bag. I didn't even know they made other types as we have never used them or been exposed to them.

As far as QTIP, I don't. I try to learn something new every day and today I did.

[billfitz 109]

Rigging equipment such as - chain hoist, come alongs, wire rope slings & webbing slings can be oredered from many industrial supply houses such as Grainger, Fastenal and Crosby just to name a few. Just be sure to order rated slings etc. with the rated capacities stamped, marked or otherwise identified on the equipment - when building a system just remember a chain is only as strong as its weakest link (Don't use a 1 ton chain hoist with a sling rated for 12 ton when stabilizing a 10 ton load)

[rescue40 30]

just to touch on it since it was talked about, we used vincents tow truck to pull the car out by the medics request, sure we could have taken alot more time and not having low pressure bags avail we might have not got him out and wasted alot of time,but the medics said do whatever u gotta do to get the car off of him as he was starting to fade away,we used the resources that were there and lifted the truck and pulled the vehicle about 3 feet from the bottom of the truck so the medics could work him, the guy is still alive and the steps were taken to insure no one was hurt or in jepordy of being hurt and the job got done

[ny10570 745]

rescue40, now that is an incident worth posting. Sounds like you guys did a good job.

[DR104 141]

White Plains has them on Rescue 88.and they had them for some time now.

[helicopper 1,050]

White Plains has them on Rescue 88.and they had them for some time now.

High pressure or low pressure or both?

Thanks to everyone who's contributed to this thread. It's informative and interesting and is a great example of how this forum can actually be a useful tool and not just another online chat.

[DR104 141]

High pressure or low pressure or both?

Thanks to everyone who's contributed to this thread. It's informative and interesting and is a great example of how this forum can actually be a useful tool and not just another online chat.

Both. They used the low pressure bags to remove a women who was stuck(pinned) under a Bee-line bus.

[JFLYNN 681]

OK. I have only ever used the one type of bag, which I now know is a high pressure bag. I didn't even know they made other types as we have never used them or been exposed to them.

As far as QTIP, I don't. I try to learn something new every day and today I did.

My apologies. My QTIP was an attempt to be preemptive based on my past experience with this site but it was obviously not necessary for me to direct it at you.

[rescue40 30]

well im glad we had this chat then i had no idea white plains has low and high pressure bags now ill have to update my mutial aid list for rescue,now i know that sound beach in greenwch and wp has them great to know thanks guys

[joeya7 1]

It’s ironic how every post has to turn in to a paid vs. volunteer debate. Why can’t it just be “Hey you guys did a good job with the equipment that was available”? We can all Monday morning quarterback every incident we see or hear of. I don’t think any aggressive firefighter weather paid or volunteer will argue that training is key. To add to the I-95 call in Harrison I (being the Capt of Rescue 40) requested Greenwich Rescue 5 to started out. I wanted them on the road while we began working. I know the equipment and the training that comes with Rescue 5. You can always sent them home if not needed. This request went through Bn. 15 and as you can see it never happened. That was not the time nor place to argue why my request wasn’t honored. We went there with a job to do. That job was to safely extricate one patient. That task was done to the best of our ability with the limited equipment on scene. What played a major part in this task was all of our training and yes I said training.