Collapse Rescue in Dutchess?

[on the job 68]

My question is who was called when the parking lot collapsed at the Galleria? Was a TRT called for that?

New Hamburg Fire District, Mobile Life, Arlington Fire District, Town of Poughkeepsie Police, Dutchess County Department of Emergency Response with the Field Comm. Unit, City of Poughkeepsie Police Department with the Mobile Command truck (due to the extreme cold and windy conditions that day and a unified command center for multiple police agencies), NYS Police with cadaver dogs and the Dutchess County Sheriffs Department

NYS OFPC USAR team out of Albany was called and they gave me an approximate 3 hour response time.

Not going into great detail but... thank god there was no one trapped. This was determined within an hour due to multiple security cameras under the deck and the quick and thorough interviews of multiple witnesses that were near or under the deck at the time of collapse by the Town of Poughkeepsie Police Department.

Let's keep in mind that this incident was out of the ordinary for most fire departments due to the deck itself being two foot thick of concrete and steel girders with approximately 100 tons of snow. The approximate weight of the snow was determined by state engineers.

This was a good post/discussion because this has always been on my mind on who to call if this should ever happen again.

[tdc202 0]

Does putnam County have a team?

[Danger 160]

I could have sworn I heard Village of Fishkill was starting to get in to collapse rescue, anyone hear anymore about them?

[50-65 205]

X129,

My apologies for getting off topic.

I myself appreciate the fact that we have never had to call anyone with that level of expertise. But, like you, would like to know who we could call in that event.

[texastom791 31]

Does putnam County have a team?

Nope. Putnam has a hazmat team i think a foam team a fire investigation team and a fire police team.

[Monty 35]

NYS OFPC USAR team out of Albany was called and they gave me an approximate 3 hour response time.

From when I was involved, that sounds about the right sort of expectation. The commitment was to get the fully staffed team on the road within two hours of the call being received by OFPC - throw in the response time from Albany, 3 hours is about right. That team is made up from members from multiple upstate Counties.

I don't know if anyone has any better information, but I suspect they do 1 or 2 calls a year. I know they were activated last year for a trench collapse (I think in East Greenbush).

[tdc202 0]

"Nope. Putnam has a hazmat team i think a foam team a fire investigation team and a fire police team. "

Thanks for the info.

[Guest]

Dan as far as command aspect start calling for stablization possible including East Fishkill as i know they have a large supply do to I84 (someone correct me if im wrong ) also start with the tic to see if patients can be located and extracted if safe to do so. Keep the hot zone personnel to only who has to be in there and rely on the county cars and DC911 for all the help they can give.

Edited March 18, 2009 by JHK3605

[JetPhoto 626]

Besides the topic of collapse teams, lets not also forget about High / Low angle rescue teams or trench rescue teams.

For basic collapse keep in mind that you should have a substantial amount of lumber available including plywood. It might be a good idea to get the manager of your local lumber yard and set up a plan that if you needed supply's at any time that they could supply it (and of course they will bill you).

The Orange / Sullivan collapse rescue group performed a trench rescue last summer in Kiryas Joel. Firehouse magazine had a photo story on it I believe in January of this year about it.

[MoFire390 118]

A very under utilized department is right here in your backyard guys......VA HUDSON VALLEY FIRE DEPARTMENT Castle Point & Montrose Campus. These guys are trained in confined space and Hazmat and are all FF's and EMT's......and they are on duty 24/7........

If I am incorrect I am sure that TDC202, Beekman and or Fireman3484 could set me straight

RN, yes Montrose VA is Trained in confined space rescue. MA-28 is their confined space response unit. i am not sure about Castle Point, but considering they are trained the same i would say yes they are.

Maybe one of the firefighters from there might be able to help out with that.

[JFLYNN 681]

Besides the topic of collapse teams, lets not also forget about High / Low angle rescue teams or trench rescue teams.

For basic collapse keep in mind that you should have a substantial amount of lumber available including plywood. It might be a good idea to get the manager of your local lumber yard and set up a plan that if you needed supply's at any time that they could supply it (and of course they will bill you).

The Orange / Sullivan collapse rescue group performed a trench rescue last summer in Kiryas Joel. Firehouse magazine had a photo story on it I believe in January of this year about it.

At this point in this discussion I would recommend to any one out there who may be the IC at a building collapse/ trench/ confined space, etc. who does not have legitimate nearby resources to manage the situation to consider where the closest legitimate team is and reach out to their operations officer to determine if this team would consider responding if called and what the approximate response team would be.

You will have to determine your own definition of "legitimate". IMO there are quite a few teams around who can handle a basic trench or confined space incident ( a lot more who think they can but actually can't). There are a lot less teams around who can handle a complex trench or confined space incident or a major structural collapse (again there are some who think they can but can't IMO).

In the lower half of NYS as far as I know the only fully capable teams would be FDNY assets, SWSOTF, and the Capital Region Team. I'm sure there are those who would disagree though.

Next, I would reach out to nearby air (chopper) assets such as NYSP, County PD, Air Guard, etc. to see if they would consider flying in a couple of team leaders / technical assets on short notice. For instance, in the hypothetical example of a major collapse in Dutchess the request for a team from NYC, Southern Westchester, or Albany region could be requested and in short order the IC and / or Operations Officer could be flown in, weather permitting, and on the ground assessing the situation, making recommendations to the on scene responders and communicating to his team responding in by road what they have and what will be needed.

It's nothing to be ashamed of to admit you need help and call for it early. For many years in Yonkers, I used to say that if we had a major collapse we should call in FDNY immediately because we couldn't handle it anywhere near as well as they could. However, for us, those days are over and we are now capable.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Dan as far as command aspect start calling for stablization possible including East Fishkill as i know they have a large supply do to I84 (someone correct me if im wrong ) also start with the tic to see if patients can be located and extracted if safe to do so. Keep the hot zone personnel to only who has to be in there and rely on the county cars and DC911 for all the help they can give.

East Fishkill does have 2 rescue vehicles with a decent amount of cribbing, struts, and other stabilizing equipment. They also have a fully stocked trailer with table saw, a multitude of wood of different sizes and lengths, PasLoad guns, struts, jacks, hammers, nails, screws, screwguns etc...

While there is no specific team associated with such, it is a resource that is available, and they are always willing to go help and lend their equipment, and a few people with training in said area.

[BIGD3265 0]

RN, yes Montrose VA is Trained in confined space rescue. MA-28 is their confined space response unit. i am not sure about Castle Point, but considering they are trained the same i would say yes they are.

Maybe one of the firefighters from there might be able to help out with that.

Mo

Castle Point unit 91-69 is double duty for Hazmat/Decon and confined space rescue

[x129K 1,393]

John - that helicopter idea is excellent! I never would have thought of that...

[Guest]

John - that helicopter idea is excellent! I never would have thought of that...

Dan as you said your threads get people thinking as i spent sometime last night thinking about this a helicopter transport of a team was an idea i thought also not to mention turning off utilities, evacuating other building effected and closing road in the area to name a few. Great thread

[helicopper 1,050]

Next, I would reach out to nearby air (chopper) assets such as NYSP, County PD, Air Guard, etc. to see if they would consider flying in a couple of team leaders / technical assets on short notice. For instance, in the hypothetical example of a major collapse in Dutchess the request for a team from NYC, Southern Westchester, or Albany region could be requested and in short order the IC and / or Operations Officer could be flown in, weather permitting, and on the ground assessing the situation, making recommendations to the on scene responders and communicating to his team responding in by road what they have and what will be needed.

I'm so glad that someone else brought up this point. I was reluctant to for fear of being accused of shameless self promotion and advertising on the site!

Seriously though, NYPD could transport a large contingent of specialists from the city, we could transport a smaller group from Westchester, and the State Police could transport a group down from the Albany area so that should definitely be put into the toolbox. Even if a full ground response of a complete team from one of these places isn't warranted, the technical expertise and experience could be used with existing resources to resolve an incident.

If a ground response is warranted, air assets could be used to move additional personnel or special equipment (SAR K-9, acoustic or fiberoptic search devices, etc.) to the scene while the heavy equipment is brought in.

Great idea. It is great to see people considering non-traditional methods to resolve problems!

[SageVigiles 1,194]

On the issue of air support. From what I've heard through people in the CT Dept. of Homeland Security and Emergency Management is that the CT TF-1 keeps some of their equipment in roll-off PODS similar to the FDNY pod units or roll-off dumpsters. Apparently the idea is that in the event of a large disaster outside of CT, the Task Force can be loaded up by CT Air National Guard's assets and transported anywhere in the country/world/galaxy/etc. I think that was a very smart move by the state.

Sure, trucks are nice, but the lag time in responding to an incident nationwide is significantly increased. Even IF CTANG had the resources to fit rescue trucks (I'd imagine you'd probably need C-141s or C-5s, though I'm not an Air Force Loadmaster) it would take up significantly more room and add unnecessary weight. This way, when your assets land, the roll offs can essentially be put on a large roll-off dumpster truck or similarly secured to bring to the incident site. I'm not sure on how big these containers are, but maybe a Chinook helo could transport them as well.

Anybody here a member of CT TF-1 that can verify what I'm saying?

[helicopper 1,050]

On the issue of air support. From what I've heard through people in the CT Dept. of Homeland Security and Emergency Management is that the CT TF-1 keeps some of their equipment in roll-off PODS similar to the FDNY pod units or roll-off dumpsters. Apparently the idea is that in the event of a large disaster outside of CT, the Task Force can be loaded up by CT Air National Guard's assets and transported anywhere in the country/world/galaxy/etc. I think that was a very smart move by the state.

Sure, trucks are nice, but the lag time in responding to an incident nationwide is significantly increased. Even IF CTANG had the resources to fit rescue trucks (I'd imagine you'd probably need C-141s or C-5s, though I'm not an Air Force Loadmaster) it would take up significantly more room and add unnecessary weight. This way, when your assets land, the roll offs can essentially be put on a large roll-off dumpster truck or similarly secured to bring to the incident site. I'm not sure on how big these containers are, but maybe a Chinook helo could transport them as well.

Anybody here a member of CT TF-1 that can verify what I'm saying?

For short distances a CH-47 or similiar helicopter might be able to sling load a container. But a number if issues arise... Where is the nearest Chinook based? Is it available for immediate release to a civil mission such as we're describing? What is the response time? How much weight is in the container? Was it loaded to military specifications and is the crewchief and/or pilot going to accept it if it was loaded by someone else?? Can it be safely transported from its place of storage to where it's needed? I don't know if they will carry a load like that over downtown Stamford/Waterbury etc. By the time all this is worked out it might be faster to drive it.

As for fixed wing airlift, again do we have ready access to such resources on short notice? Do we have airports that can accommodate such planes? Not just runway length but taxiways and ramp areas as well. Again, are the loads packed to military standards? yada, yada, yada...

Air transport is a great idea but if you talk to other federal teams (FEMA USAR, NDMS DMAT, etc.) there are many issues associated it - many of things carried in your load may be prohibited by the military. Some things may not be allowed in the same containers and that's how you've stored it.

I'm not trying to discourage it; I'm just urging those so inclined to make all the necessary arrangements NOW because it may not work out as intended if you don't.

It's great that we're discussing it in advance of an incident because someone might actually try to find out the answers to some of the above.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Chris,

Great points you brought up. CT Air National Guard does have CH-47s and other aircraft that would allow them to transport this equipment. As I understand it, the team also has trucks, or has contracted companies with trucks to transport the PODS when the incident is in-state. I believe the airlift option is really only intended for out-of-state deployments. Again, someone who works with CT TF-1 would have to confirm.

TF-1 will also send K9 units (usually State Police) to conduct searches during a collapse if a local department requires it.

http://www.ct.gov/demhs/cwp/view.asp?a=1916&q=288260

Edited March 19, 2009 by SageVigiles

[helicopper 1,050]

Chris,

Great points you brought up. CT Air National Guard does have CH-47s and other aircraft that would allow them to transport this equipment. As I understand it, the team also has trucks, or has contracted companies with trucks to transport the PODS when the incident is in-state. I believe the airlift option is really only intended for out-of-state deployments. Again, someone who works with CT TF-1 would have to confirm.

TF-1 will also send K9 units (usually State Police) to conduct searches during a collapse if a local department requires it.

http://www.ct.gov/demhs/cwp/view.asp?a=1916&q=288260

That explains where the CH-47's I always see are going!

Great resources, time to dust off those old emergency plans and start updating the info!

[x635 4,066]

I could have sworn I heard Village of Fishkill was starting to get in to collapse rescue, anyone hear anymore about them?

From what I have heard, the Village Of Fishkill FD has started training to become a collapse unit. They apparently have purchased a special operations truck and are equpping it with collapse rescue stuff.

Anyone have further? Also, does anyone have the specs for the new special operations truck?

[x129K 1,393]

From what I have heard, the Village Of Fishkill FD has started training to become a collapse unit. They apparently have purchased a special operations truck and are equpping it with collapse rescue stuff.

Anyone have further? Also, does anyone have the specs for the new special operations truck?

Very interesting! I'd love to hear more..

[MoFire390 118]

Mo

Castle Point unit 91-69 is double duty for Hazmat/Decon and confined space rescue

thanks brother good to know

[Danger 160]

Looks like PECO has a converted ambulance as a vehicle for it...

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Looks like PECO has a converted ambulance as a vehicle for it...

A former East Fishkill FD Ambulance was purchased by PECo for a minimal price and repainted to their black-over-red scheme, and I was unsure of its intended use in the long run, but that seems like a cool idea. The PECo guys go all out, and are a highly trained, and well disciplined group.

If this is the case, best of luck guys!!

[ny10570 745]

The one thing that is clear, if anyone is faced with a major collapse they are going to to be on their own for a while. Albany 3 hrs, FDNY 3+, WSOTF 2(?). So what is your dept going to do in the interim? Mine, very little. Evacuate surrounding structures, water supply and hose lines in place, and assist all non-entrapped victims to safety. Other than that it'll be a whole lot of hurry up and wait.

[post4031 16]

If I remember correctly didn't OFPC get approval and funding to set up regional technical rescue teams a few years ago? I think it would be beneficial to all of Dutchess for departments to pool their resources and personnel and form a County Technical Rescue Team. There is definately a need and I am sure there will be interest it just needs some coordination.

Stay Safe!!

[JFLYNN 681]

The one thing that is clear, if anyone is faced with a major collapse they are going to to be on their own for a while. Albany 3 hrs, FDNY 3+, WSOTF 2(?). So what is your dept going to do in the interim? Mine, very little. Evacuate surrounding structures, water supply and hose lines in place, and assist all non-entrapped victims to safety. Other than that it'll be a whole lot of hurry up and wait.

Prior to the arrival of USAR assets, first responders can and should do the following:

1. Size-up

2. Removal of surface victims

3. Control Utilities

4. Establish secondary collapse zones

5. Control sources of vibration such as trains, venicle traffic, etc.

6. Establish water supply

7. Establish command post

8. Establish staging area(s)

***9. Get everyone off the pile and out of the collapse zone once surface victims have been removed! (Good luch with this!)

A good way to do this is to delegate all these people a specific task so they feel like they are accomplishing something- keep giving them jobs, even if not essential to keep them out of trouble

7. If possible identify voids and access points which may be ebtered for search upon arrival of USAR

[16fire5 693]

Adding to the previous post apparatus placement is important. Aside from getting a tower ladder in front (recon, rescue, highpoint) get the rest of the apparatus stagged. Leave the best spots for the USAR resources so they don't have to carry their equipment 1/2 a mile and they can set up their cutting station real close. Take hydrants out of the block, at one of the crane collapses last year the collapse broke the water main anyway.

[Remember585 815]

One tool I didn't see mentioned (probably missed it) is your TICs. They'll help you see things you may not with the naked eye. And as the Lt. and Chief have said, get a Tower in a safe position to overlook things, and if need be, put a guy with the TIC up there.

In the WC, we may even benefit from calling on WCPD Aviation for their thermal imaging capabilities.