Racial Fairness in Promotions

[Danger 160]

Here are a few recent articles on the topic:

New Haven CT:

"A Missed Opportunity to Put Skills Above Race"

...President Obama and his chief law enforcement officer have missed an opportunity to live up to their promise to take the nation beyond the old battle lines over race.

In one of the most important affirmative action cases of the last 20 years, the Obama administration has decided to support the use of race by New Haven, Conn., in making hiring, firing, and promotion decisions.

similarly:

Race Case? Duck and Cover

in slightly better news...better late than never?

75 Chicago Firefighters Win Reverse Discrimination Suit After 20 Years of Litigation

AFTER 20 YEARS OF LITIGATION, 75 CHICAGO, ILLINOIS, FIREFIGHTERS have been awarded victory in their reverse-discrimination suit against the city. The white firefighters were all on the lieutenant’s promotional list following an examination in 1986, but the city bumped them down the eligibility order when it implemented a scheme known as “race norming” claiming that the test was unfair to black firefighters.

Yesterday U. S. District Judge James Holderman ruled that it was the treatment of the firefighters on the eligibility list that was unfair and awarded the group a $6 million settlement for damages and lost pay from not being promoted. Many of the firefighters have already retired.

A group of 100 other white firefighters previously received tens of millions of dollars and benefits in a separate settlement in the same suit, however they were higher up on the eligibility list because of higher test scores.

[FFLieu 70]

Race does not belong in our line of work. Civil Service Exams exist for one reason: to find the most qualified individual(s) for a particular job. End of story. If I am passed over for someone of a different race who scored lower, or if I am picked over someone of a different race who scored higher, shame on the hiring department.

[OnTheWheel 43]

Civil service exams show who can take a test, there are plenty of "qualified" people who aren't good test takers. I think they put too much emphasis on the test and need to bring more of training and experience into the hiring/promotional process. But definitly not anything else!

[FirNaTine 370]

One thing a Municipality should never do is dumb down a Job by lowering Standards and instituting a grading curve to meet an Objective, plain and simple! If they do, they will regret it in the long run, GUARANTEED! Let's please stop begging people to take a test to reach a quota. You want the Job, then EARN IT! Don't be handed it, Period!

[jayhalsey 6]

Race does not belong in our line of work. Civil Service Exams exist for one reason: to find the most qualified individual(s) for a particular job. End of story. If I am passed over for someone of a different race who scored lower, or if I am picked over someone of a different race who scored higher, shame on the hiring department.

Fully agree. How is someone getting picked because of his race not discrimination against the person that wasnt hired?

[ajsbear 11]

Whet ever happened to "Best Qualified?"

[FFFORD 27]

^^^ exactly my thoughts, i was going to say what happened to "the best man for the job"

[firecapt32 282]

Not to drift off the subject but what about resident hireing lists?? I know its not quite the same but a resident of lets say living in White Plains can score a 75 on the exam and person living in North White Plains can score a 95 but the resident with the 75 gets hired!!! thats not quite right either. Maybe we need one standard

[FirNaTine 370]

Not to drift off the subject but what about resident hireing lists?? I know its not quite the same but a resident of lets say living in White Plains can score a 75 on the exam and person living in North White Plains can score a 95 but the resident with the 75 gets hired!!! thats not quite right either. Maybe we need one standard

Agree with ya 100%. The best candidate for the Job isn't always the one who resides there. Who cares where one lives choose the most qualified and that means having one Elegibility List. To hell with residency requirements! Most guys move out of town anyway, so it's meaningless.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Agree with ya 100%. The best candidate for the Job isn't always the one who resides there. Who cares where one lives choose the most qualified and that means having one Elegibility List. To hell with residency requirements! Most guys move out of town anyway, so it's meaningless.

While I'm all for the top candidate getting the job, the residency clause generally has a purpose. First, if you have a test that any candidate who passes will work, sometimes the best test taker is not the best person. A municipality must look out for itself. Giving preference to residents helps employ residents whose money stays locally. Also, candidates from away are less likely to stay as local residents who have ties to the community. Locals tend to know the area better which is always a benefit.

[Guest]

I agree with all of the previous posters. Race does not belong in our career fields. It was said before, what happened to "best man for the job"?

[wraftery 1,275]

More often than not, with resident hiring, the "resident" moves out of town within a couple of years of his hiring.

Nothing against him.

Ya gotta live where you can afford it. You simply get more bang for your buck out of town.

[Guest]

Yeah I also agree that "most qualified" or highest scoring should be offered the positions not based on race. The problem is even the unions can't keep it together on the same page were always separate look at this for example (http://www.iabpff.org/index2.htm). Is there really a need for a separate union for black firefighters? NO not at all shouldn't matter what race you are were all firefighters........ so much for "brotherhood"

[antiquefirelt 994]

Yeah I also agree that "most qualified" or highest scoring should be offered the positions not based on race. The problem is even the unions can't keep it together on the same page were always separate look at this for example (http://www.iabpff.org/index2.htm). Is there really a need for a separate union for black firefighters? NO not at all shouldn't matter what race you are were all firefighters........ so much for "brotherhood"

Works good for management, now you have less people speaking from one sheet of music. It certainly makes "divide and conquer easier for City Hall when you are already divided. Some much for firefighters just being firefighters.

[FFPCogs 863]

Time for the Devil's Advocate to make an appearance. First off let's get one thing straight predjudice always has and still does exists everywhere, and it is not only black v white as we all know. I can safely say that if it were not for Affirmative Action or the ERA there would be far fewer minorities and women riding those big shiny rigs because the culture that kept the fire service a predominately white male service would never have changed. And since for the most part minorities had fewer educational opportunities they were not considered "capable" of doing the job and sadly this is still true today, (although to be fair there are other reasons for this besides simple predjudice on the part of "the man"). As has been mentioned here race/gender should not be a factor in becoming a firefighter or anything else for that matter, but truth be told that is not the reality of the world in which we live. Old predjudices die very hard, on all sides of the issue, and this is evident by simply walking down the street or better yet watching people's reactions when taken out of their "element". As insidious, destructive and ultimately ridiculous as racism/sexism are, it does exist and it does have an impact on the potential to gain civil service employment and in society in general, to believe otherwise is to live in a bubble. Then of course there is the one fact that has been overlooked, Affirmative Action or other quotas exist...when you willingly take an exam where they apply you willingly accept that this may have an impact on your chances of getting a job. If you don't want to deal with what may in the end be an unfair advantage don't take the tests that have quotas or apply in cities that traditionally use them. Just a side note; in the 1980s I was passd over for employment on a couple of occasions due to Affirmative Action quotas..was I happy about it NO "blanking" way but it was a situation I was fully aware of. I understood that right or wrong quotas are a fact of life

Honestly I do not approve of AA or ANY quotas, but I do understand why they are in place and as unpopular as it may be can still see the need for them...but only AFTER candidates have legitimately and successfully passed every phase of the hiring process.

Cogs

[gamewell45 258]

Yeah I also agree that "most qualified" or highest scoring should be offered the positions not based on race. The problem is even the unions can't keep it together on the same page were always separate look at this for example (http://www.iabpff.org/index2.htm). Is there really a need for a separate union for black firefighters? NO not at all shouldn't matter what race you are were all firefighters........ so much for "brotherhood"

I took a brief look at their website; they appear not to be a labor organization covered under the NLRA of 1934. Its just an association for fraternal relationships and common interests among black firefighters.

[FirNaTine 370]

Time for the Devil's Advocate to make an appearance. First off let's get one thing straight predjudice always has and still does exists everywhere, and it is not only black v white as we all know. I can safely say that if it were not for Affirmative Action or the ERA there would be far fewer minorities and women riding those big shiny rigs because the culture that kept the fire service a predominately white male service would never have changed. And since for the most part minorities had fewer educational opportunities they were not considered "capable" of doing the job and sadly this is still true today, (although to be fair there are other reasons for this besides simple predjudice on the part of "the man"). As has been mentioned here race/gender should not be a factor in becoming a firefighter or anything else for that matter, but truth be told that is not the reality of the world in which we live. Old predjudices die very hard, on all sides of the issue, and this is evident by simply walking down the street or better yet watching people's reactions when taken out of their "element". As insidious, destructive and ultimately ridiculous as racism/sexism are, it does exist and it does have an impact on the potential to gain civil service employment and in society in general, to believe otherwise is to live in a bubble. Then of course there is the one fact that has been overlooked, Affirmative Action or other quotas exist...when you willingly take an exam where they apply you willingly accept that this may have an impact on your chances of getting a job. If you don't want to deal with what may in the end be an unfair advantage don't take the tests that have quotas or apply in cities that traditionally use them. Just a side note; in the 1980s I was passd over for employment on a couple of occasions due to Affirmative Action quotas..was I happy about it NO "blanking" way but it was a situation I was fully aware of. I understood that right or wrong quotas are a fact of life

Honestly I do not approve of AA or ANY quotas, but I do understand why they are in place and as unpopular as it may be can still see the need for them...but only AFTER candidates have legitimately and successfully passed every phase of the hiring process.

Cogs

Bottom line is don't lower standards and dumb down a test to reach a qouta period! Some people just don't have an interest in a certain Profession and there's nothing wrong with that. Do you think to reach a qouta a Municipality should accept citizens without a High School Diploma/GED and even a Felony Conviction for a Civil Service position? The Military doesn't. Not to mention the $$$$ that's spent on a Recruitment Drive. FDNY spends Millions of $$$$ on their Recruitment Program and still has only raised slightly the % of Minorities and Women taking the test. Not to mention they give these individuals wake up calls and offer them rides to the Testing Sites. Are these the type of individuals you want by your side in a Job? Not me. I want the "Go Getters" who sought this Profession on their own and didn't have to be coerced to take a Job to satisfy a Quota! Maybe we should start playing the same Quota game b/s with the NBA?

[FirNaTine 370]

While I'm all for the top candidate getting the job, the residency clause generally has a purpose. First, if you have a test that any candidate who passes will work, sometimes the best test taker is not the best person. A municipality must look out for itself. Giving preference to residents helps employ residents whose money stays locally. Also, candidates from away are less likely to stay as local residents who have ties to the community. Locals tend to know the area better which is always a benefit.

If this is the case then no civil service employee should be able to move out of the municipality in which they work. As far as knowing the area better that's also not true. I've worked with many guys who grew up in the city in which they now work and have absolutely no clue to their whereabouts when the bell strikes, even after being on the job for 15-20yrs. It's really pitiful! Then there's the guy who is the out of towner, who knows every street in the city especially his 1st due territory, because he makes it his Job to know and has a insatiable appetite for learning. He actually wants to be a FF. and loves his Job and wants to be the best he can be at it. I/M/O, Residency Requirements should be tossed out the window.

Edited March 24, 2009 by FirNaTine

[hudson144 150]

In reference to this subject- if you don't stand up and fight for your rights then nobody will do it for you! Was there discrimination years ago? yes,does it still exist yes,its now a 2 way street but if you are a white male and you fight for your rights because you got screwed by the leaders of your own department you are a racist? Throughout the nation in education, trades and emergency services cases are being overturned from the 70's and 80's because of the so called "reverse discrimination", there is by the way no such thing as "reverse" its just plain old discrimination! Cogs- maybe when you got denied a position you took it off the chin and let it go, well sir its because of many of us that did that in the past we are in the situation of today. You want equal rights? Then let it be equal across the board! Education- I went to school did my best, joined the military did my best, took civil service exams did my best, and had to deal with quotas and goals, what a bunch of BS! SEE YOU IN COURT!!!

Edited March 24, 2009 by hudson144

[FirNaTine 370]

Can you imagine if the Special Forces Divisions of the Military (Delta Force, Navy Seals, Green Berets, Rangers) had to follow a Federal Mandated Decree. Man our National Security would really be in DANGER!

[steve shryock 0]

It should be like the private sector,

Best person for the job is hired.

for promotions, they should put more emphasis on training, proven skills, and interviews and less on a test or any other crap that currently goes on.

I'll say it again. Since there is a fraternal association for non caucasion firefighters based on skin color, then the powers that be (courts/ACLU/liberals etc) should not itch & moan if there is an association for caucasion firefighters.

But as it currently stands with the idiots making these rules that would be labeled a racist group.

I lost a job a few years ago because someone of color played his cards (yes the race card) and my position was eliminated to create a BS position for this other person. I went to EEOC and they said the company did not discriminate because they wanted to have more minority employees.

Some people say I'm bitter but I have my reasons.

Edited March 25, 2009 by steve shryock

[lad12derff 283]

I took a brief look at their website; they appear not to be a labor organization covered under the NLRA of 1934. Its just an association for fraternal relationships and common interests among black firefighters.

A common interest between themselve to promote themselves at the expense of others. Great club, where do I sign up?

[helicopper 1,050]

It should be like the private sector,

Best person for the job is hired.

for promotions, they should put more emphasis on training, proven skills, and interviews and less on a test or any other crap that currently goes on.

There is just as much nepotism and favoritism (if not more) in the private sector! With no exams or civil service protections it is probably worse in the private sector.

Rather than strictly basing promotions on a single lucky Saturday, I mean written exam, there should be a more comprehensive approach including the written exam, skills evaluation (if applicable), interviews, and prior job performance. It makes for more well rounded candidates than just the exam. This way the guy who gets an 80 on the written but has high scores in everything else will have just as much of a chance as the test taker who hasn't done anything for the past year because they've been studying for the exam! That really sucks!

What can you do??

[Guest FFNick]

New Haven Register Article from 3/26

Here is another article under the subject.

[Guest]

Most qualified means absolutely ooogottz(how ya like that spelling).

[ajsbear 11]

Most qualified means absolutely ooogottz(how ya like that spelling).

couldn't find that in the dictionary.

[abaduck 123]

There's a... disconnect here. I truly do not understand this argument at any level. It's like... there's an alternative universe or something.

"Dennis Thompson, an Akron, Ohio-based lawyer representing the IABPFF, said multiple-choice tests such as the one administered in New Haven are poor indicators of qualifications and historically have hurt minorities"

Now it's perfectly arguable whether or not a multiple-choice test is the best way to pick people for promotion. At least it's fair on the face of it; unless someone is designing the test to favour a specific individual, or leaking the questions in advance, it's free from any possible bias, nepotism, or favouritism - which is why I suppose it's popular for civil service positions.

But I have no conception of how someone - even a hired-gun lawyer - can stand up with a straight face and say that multiple-choice tests 'historically have hurt minorities'. Why??!! What's the reasoning here? That sounds like a deeply racist statement. As far as I can see, multiple-choice tests can only hurt those who either

a. are lazy and don't study hard enough for the tests or

b. are just too plain dumb to ever score well or

c. are smart and study hard, but are just congenitally bad at taking tests

So which is he saying applies disproportionately to 'minorities'? a, b, or c?

I

Just

Don't

Get

It

And I suspect I never will.

[gamewell45 258]

I'll say it again. Since there is a fraternal association for non caucasion firefighters based on skin color, then the powers that be (courts/ACLU/liberals etc) should not itch & moan if there is an association for caucasion firefighters.

They most likely wouldn't itch & moan. There are already plenty of groups in this country that are white-only or discriminate based on religion or ethnic background. Likewise there are plenty that will accept anybody. As long as you don't receive federal or state funding I see no reason why the courts/ACLU/Liberals/Conservatives, etc would challenge it.

[NYMedic37 22]

HEY! I've got a novel idea.....how about promoting based upon MERIT instead of skin color or gender? Hmmmm.....

[gamewell45 258]

HEY! I've got a novel idea.....how about promoting based upon MERIT instead of skin color or gender? Hmmmm.....

That sounds pretty reasonable.