Westchester County Technical Rescue Team

[Remember585 815]

Was up in the Chief's Office today, saw a fax from Westchester County DES that the Technical Rescue Team is now IN SERVICE!

Glad to hear it, good luck to those whom have been working on this for a few years now.

Kudos to Deputy Commissioner John Jackson for helping push this along and for the acquisition of their Rescue and Collapse rigs.

[ENG47INE 17]

EMAIL i got from the county said it will officially be in service as of Sunday March 8,2009

[Guest]

congrats

[billfitz 109]

Here we go again - this will be construed as a Paid vs. vollie rant - but I would rather call it a case of the "emperor has no clothes" .

A few weeks ago there was a Trench collapse in Eastchester where over 50 First responders (FF & Con Ed) responded. virtually ever FF on the scene was certified in Trench Collapse Operations. = The training records are documented and can be verified!

The County Team while they may have a few trained members does not, will not and will never have the capability that they advertise (The emperor has no clothes) - every one is afraid to acknowledge the fact that it is not a viable team. This is an attempt to jump the gun and say they are in service to compete with other resources in the County and fly their flag!!! This is a dangerous perception. A team needs to be based on training and verifiable records - must have a track record - and not just good intentions!!!!!!!! While many people may have the best of intentions as a "First Response" group they will never have the capabilities that they advertise -

Will everyone else out there be silent, buy a Tech Rescue hat and tee shirt and jump on the band wagon - for fear of saying "The Emperor has no clothes

[wmurpht 1]

Here we go again - this will be construed as a Paid vs. vollie rant - but I would rather call it a case of the "emperor has no clothes" .

A few weeks ago there was a Trench collapse in Eastchester where over 50 First responders (FF & Con Ed) responded. virtually ever FF on the scene was certified in Trench Collapse Operations. = The training records are documented and can be verified!

The County Team while they may have a few trained members does not, will not and will never have the capability that they advertise (The emperor has no clothes) - every one is afraid to acknowledge the fact that it is not a viable team. This is an attempt to jump the gun and say they are in service to compete with other resources in the County and fly their flag!!! This is a dangerous perception. A team needs to be based on training and verifiable records - must have a track record - and not just good intentions!!!!!!!! While many people may have the best of intentions as a "First Response" group they will never have the capabilities that they advertise -

Will everyone else out there be silent, buy a Tech Rescue hat and tee shirt and jump on the band wagon - for fear of saying "The Emperor has no clothes

I have been in the fire service as a volunteer for 16 years, and am also a member of your so called 'toothless' Westchester County Rescue Team. And for the fact I have earned pretty much every qualification that all your super paid guys have (feel free to verify). So have many of the dedicated members of the tech rescue team. It seems that when we train with paid instructors or paid firemen there is quite a large amount of amity and respect for each other, but on this board there is little support between the two groups. Maybe if the Yonkers guys trained with some of the their volunteer brethren on occasion, they would see that there are a number of good, qualified, and experienced volunteer firefighters in Westchester. Instead of criticizing the training and experience of fellow firemen which you have never verified, I think it would be much more productive to actually support and foster the efforts of everyone who serves in the fire service. So maybe one day, if the tech rescue team does get called out to support the citizens and community they live in, we could actually work together without any nagging suspicions of some lack of respect and understanding between each other. In the mean time I will be trained and ready to respond to whatever I am called to do, and I will do it well when called upon.

Edited March 7, 2009 by Chris192
Inflammatory remark removed.

[Guest KFD236]

Wow that is so kind of you. I am sure these people have worked their tails off and im sure the people at the county has as well. I dont believe that the county would jeopardize people's lives by giving someone a shirt as you put it and sending them out to go rescue someone or what have you. I for one would like to congratulate everyone on the team and those at the county and I wish them all the best of luck.

[billfitz 109]

I don't think I mentioned the Yonkers Fire Dept. in my post- I thought I was talking about training and certifications - which I mentioned I am sure several members of the County Team have - I think the point I was trying to make is that good intentions do not translate into responding to a Tech Rescue incident within 30 minutes with enough trained and qualified personnel M-F, 8-5 when most dept's can't get an engine or ambulance out the door. When you can guarnatee a minumum of 30 First Responders on the scene trained and ready to go - to operate at a collapse incident within 30 minutes with the proper equipment and PPE then will talk. until then -

[Guest DFD189]

I don't think I mentioned the Yonkers Fire Dept. in my post- I thought I was talking about training and certifications - which I mentioned I am sure several members of the County Team have - I think the point I was trying to make is that good intentions do not translate into responding to a Tech Rescue incident within 30 minutes with enough trained and qualified personnel M-F, 8-5 when most dept's can't get an engine or ambulance out the door. When you can guarnatee a minumum of 30 First Responders on the scene trained and ready to go - to operate at a collapse incident within 30 minutes with the proper equipment and PPE then will talk. until then -

NY State runs a urban technical search and rescue team, NY Task Force 2, from Albany. It makes use of both paid and volunteer members. All are OFPC certified in their respective skill sets before they can respond operationally. There is a difference between a NY Task Force 2 response, and say a response by the City of Albany's Rescue Squad. If NY Task Force 2 is called in, the situation is more of a true technical rescue, and not your classic emergency response. A 30 minute response time is fine, but good luck sustaining operations on a major incident without the structure and resources of a dedicated team like NY TF-2.

I don't know what the implementation plan is for the Westchester County team. I would assume it is a light response unit, given the cost and complexity associated with building, training and sustaining a true medium-level collapse team. But in any event, I can't imagine that it is billing itself as a first-response type unit. It is a technical rescue unit, just like HAZMAT teams are technical response units. Your HAZMAT incident response team is not first due at most HAZMAT incidents -- that job goes to your engine company/truck company that got the original assignment.

Judge the new unit based upon the standards it sets for itself, and how it lives up to those standards. But don't judge it on standards which are not reasonable. Let the heavy rescue unit initiate a trench rescue, and complete it if possible. But if the rescue becomes complex, and requires more technical resources, then call in the team which can best handle the job. In upstate NY, that would be NY TF-2. In Westchester, I'll leave it up to you to make that call. But don't assume a combined volunteer/paid staff, or even an all-volunteer staff, can't do the job simply because of their affiliations.

[JFLYNN 681]

Was up in the Chief's Office today, saw a fax from Westchester County DES that the Technical Rescue Team is now IN SERVICE!

Glad to hear it, good luck to those whom have been working on this for a few years now.

Kudos to Deputy Commissioner John Jackson for helping push this along and for the acquisition of their Rescue and Collapse rigs.

As a Deputy Chief of the largest Fire Department IN Westchester, and former 9 year Captain of our Rescue Company, no one notified me of this prior to me learning it on here.

I will attempt to be totally objective and not make any assumptions.

Maybe this is a good thing for the Fire Service in Westchester and those we are sworn to protect...

So, what does this mean? What, exactly are the capabilities of this team?

If, Heaven forbid, we are in need of outside Tech-Rescue resources in Yonkers (the day will come again sometime unfortunately), what is this team able to provide? What will their response time be? How many personell will respond and what will be their level of training? Are there minimum and maximum age limits? Physical fitness standards? What equipment is available? How long will they be able to sustain operations? What is their Chain of Command? Have they been issued ID cards? Uniforms?

These are just a few questions that come to mind....I'm sure others will have many more...

[helicopper 1,050]

Judge the new unit based upon the standards it sets for itself, and how it lives up to those standards. But don't judge it on standards which are not reasonable.

I'm not going to say anything regarding any Westchester team or its capabilities, I'm just going to comment on the statement quoted above. Standards it sets for itself? Really? So somebody can establish standards that say two guys in a pick-up truck with a handful of 2x4's and bump caps that responds within 24 hours can be a technical rescue team? There has to be objective, realistic, and comprehensive standards for any kind of specialty team. NFPA or FEMA may set such standards and the bar should be set there, there should be no special considerations for anyone (paid or volunteer) because the rescue/haz-mat/tactical/etc. situation isn't going to discriminate.

NIMS also requires resource typing and this can not work without universal standards for teams as well as other resources. Though the FEMA resource typing guide doesn't describe response time criteria for any of the resources, there absolutely should be some kind of standard for response times too.

Before casting aspersions on the new Westchester County team, why don't we all wait and see what it is going to be able to do for us and then judge.

As for making this a career vs. paid or jurisdiction A vs. jurisdiction B debate, such comments will not be tolerated. They are counter-productive and inflammatory. Please be respectful and remember it's OK to agree to disagree!

[helicopper 1,050]

Wow that is so kind of you. I am sure these people have worked their tails off and im sure the people at the county has as well. I dont believe that the county would jeopardize people's lives by giving someone a shirt as you put it and sending them out to go rescue someone or what have you. I for one would like to congratulate everyone on the team and those at the county and I wish them all the best of luck.

Point of clarification - the post to which your refer does not state the County is giving people a shirt and sending them out to perform a rescue. The post in question challenges the overall capabilities of the team while acknowledging that there are trained and experienced individuals on it. This can (and I'm sure will be) debated for some time to come but let us not misinterpret things. Some legitimate questions about team (not individual member) qualifications and capabilities have been asked - why don't we seek the answers to either support the argument or put it to rest?

There is no reason to engage in a negative exchange with a member who is skeptical; simply prove him wrong. If he is right, however, the statement about ignoring deficiencies (below) is a valid one.

Will everyone else out there be silent, buy a Tech Rescue hat and tee shirt and jump on the band wagon - for fear of saying "The Emperor has no clothes "

[billfitz 109]

Chris - you are 100 % right - that is why I stated there needs to be verification & validation of training & resources - NIMS already outlines what the different levels of team are Type I. II. II. & IV. NFPA 1670 outlines training standards. Judging by the County's track record I am sure they will be just as effective as the County HazMat Team. "The Emperor Has No Clothes" - no one dare wants to say it or call them on it - the record speaks for itself. This is not a disparaging comment or an attack on any group but a statment based on reality!

[Monty 35]

Posted below is a memo that was emailed out to those that are subscribed to the County fire email list:

To: All Agencies

From: John E. Jackson, Deputy Commissioner/Fire Coordinator

Re: Technical Rescue Team

Date: Sunday March 8, 2009.

Dear Chief,

It is my pleasure to announce that the County’s Special Operations Division’s Technical Rescue Team is now in service and available to respond to technical rescue emergencies The Team can respond to requests to implement a rescue, or to assist your department with equipment and trained manpower in executing a rescue. At this time our members are trained and equipped to respond to structural collapses, confined space rescues, trench collapse rescues and wilderness search events. Soon the team will be prepared to respond to swift water rescues as well.

The Team is available to an Incident Commander by making the request thru 60 control.

If you have any questions contact

Peter Pitocco, Chief of Special Operations

914-231-1689 or mailto:PAP8@westchestergov.com

As a Deputy Chief of the largest Fire Department IN Westchester, and former 9 year Captain of our Rescue Company, no one notified me of this prior to me learning it on here.

I will attempt to be totally objective and not make any assumptions.

Maybe this is a good thing for the Fire Service in Westchester and those we are sworn to protect...

So, what does this mean? What, exactly are the capabilities of this team?

If, Heaven forbid, we are in need of outside Tech-Rescue resources in Yonkers (the day will come again sometime unfortunately), what is this team able to provide? What will their response time be? How many personell will respond and what will be their level of training? Are there minimum and maximum age limits? Physical fitness standards? What equipment is available? How long will they be able to sustain operations? What is their Chain of Command? Have they been issued ID cards? Uniforms?

These are just a few questions that come to mind....I'm sure others will have many more...

As to some of your questions, yes there are ID cards issued, PPE issued. Yes, there has to be certification that the team member is fit for duty (usually by the head of the primary agency that the team member belongs to). I'm not aware of a maximum age for the team, but most on the team have taken the series of state classes on structural collapse and trench operations as well as swift water rescue. I'd be surprised if anyone on the team is over the mandatory career FF retirement age.

The team purchased two stocked technical rescue vehicles from Syosset FD on LI when they decided they could not adequately provide a technical rescue team. Since then various equipment has been added.

I'd suggest that anyone who wants to find out more about the specifics of equipment available, planned response time & manpower levels, team structure etc contact the County. I imagine that they will be happy to show off the equipment and discuss the details. I'm sure that there will be some kinks initially, but a lot of effort has gone in to getting this far and I'm sure it will continue and the team's training, equipment procedures etc will only get better over time.

Monty.

[DOC22 1]

Monty, you are absolutely 100% correct!!! Some of the posts on here could have been better presented with the negativity and skepticism left inside the keyboard. A lot of people have worked long and hard to bring this to fruition, so lets ALL take a step back and give these folks a chance to prove their value. Some of you might be surprised. Like anything new things may need to get worked out. I doubt very highly that this team id just going to run out there without required training and certification. So at least, for the time being why don't you naysayers QTIP and let them have a chance. And one more thing LET'S KEEP THE CAREER/VOLLY NONSENSE OUT OF THIS!!!!!

JMHO

[JFLYNN 681]

Posted below is a memo that was emailed out to those that are subscribed to the County fire email list:

As to some of your questions, yes there are ID cards issued, PPE issued. Yes, there has to be certification that the team member is fit for duty (usually by the head of the primary agency that the team member belongs to). I'm not aware of a maximum age for the team, but most on the team have taken the series of state classes on structural collapse and trench operations as well as swift water rescue. I'd be surprised if anyone on the team is over the mandatory career FF retirement age.

The team purchased two stocked technical rescue vehicles from Syosset FD on LI when they decided they could not adequately provide a technical rescue team. Since then various equipment has been added.

I'd suggest that anyone who wants to find out more about the specifics of equipment available, planned response time & manpower levels, team structure etc contact the County. I imagine that they will be happy to show off the equipment and discuss the details. I'm sure that there will be some kinks initially, but a lot of effort has gone in to getting this far and I'm sure it will continue and the team's training, equipment procedures etc will only get better over time.

Monty.

In your post, you use words such as "usually", "I'm not aware of", "most of", "I'd be surprised if", "I imagine that"...frankly, this speculation just doesn't cut it for me...

there are standards which are measurable...does this team meet them or not?...if I call them what am I going to get and how long after I call?

[Guest Chiefmcfuz]

WOW, Congrats! Nice to see things moving forward for this team! Great job guys!

And to address the whole t-shirt thing, I take a Double XL now, I gained some weight this winter.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I don't know what the implementation plan is for the Westchester County team. I would assume it is a light response unit, given the cost and complexity associated with building, training and sustaining a true medium-level collapse team. But in any event, I can't imagine that it is billing itself as a first-response type unit. It is a technical rescue unit, just like HAZMAT teams are technical response units. Your HAZMAT incident response team is not first due at most HAZMAT incidents -- that job goes to your engine company/truck company that got the original assignment.

Judge the new unit based upon the standards it sets for itself, and how it lives up to those standards. But don't judge it on standards which are not reasonable. Let the heavy rescue unit initiate a trench rescue, and complete it if possible. But if the rescue becomes complex, and requires more technical resources, then call in the team which can best handle the job. In upstate NY, that would be NY TF-2. In Westchester, I'll leave it up to you to make that call. But don't assume a combined volunteer/paid staff, or even an all-volunteer staff, can't do the job simply because of their affiliations.

The County Legislature only authorized this team after DES established a technical rescue oversight committee. This committee was charged with establishing all policies, procedures, equipment, training requirements and other related issues. The committee 1st met in October of 2005 and last met in 2007. At the last meeting required training levels were suggested but not voted on. To streamline the meetings DES decided to schedule the meetings to be quarterly after that. We have not had a meeting in at least 6 quarters (18 months).

At this point the oversight committee has never established minimum training (or any other standards) for this team, as was the intent of the County Board of Legislators

[Monty 35]

In your post, you use words such as "usually", "I'm not aware of", "most of", "I'd be surprised if", "I imagine that"...frankly, this speculation just doesn't cut it for me...

there are standards which are measurable...does this team meet them or not?...if I call them what am I going to get and how long after I call?

As I am not involved in the leadership of this team - I feel that I am not in a position to make definitive statements. I can only give my personal opinion.

Looking at the memo, it was addressed to All Agencies and the Chiefs of those agencies - they may have more information that has not filtered down to others.

Failing that as I stated, before you should contact the County.

If you have any questions contact

Peter Pitocco, Chief of Special Operations

914-231-1689 or mailto:PAP8@westchestergov.com

I can tell you about the 125+ hours training that I personally took in State / National classes last year, in addition to the previous training I've had. But as has already been posted, there are some members with more training, some with less. The best place to get the answers you (and probably others) are looking for is to go to the team leaders.

[EJS1810 7]

And to address the whole t-shirt thing, I take a Double XL now, I gained some weight this winter.

It all comes back to the donuts

[Bnechis 3,961]

The team purchased two stocked technical rescue vehicles from Syosset FD on LI when they decided they could not adequately provide a technical rescue team. Since then various equipment has been added.

I'd suggest that anyone who wants to find out more about the specifics of equipment available, planned response time & manpower levels, team structure etc contact the County. I imagine that they will be happy to show off the equipment and discuss the details. I'm sure that there will be some kinks initially, but a lot of effort has gone in to getting this far and I'm sure it will continue and the team's training, equipment procedures etc will only get better over time.

Monty.

The team did not purchase any vehicles the county did before the county "team" was even recognized as a team (yes there was a group started prior to that that was trying to get it self established0 and for those with really short memories there was an attempt in 1988-89 to start a team, that gave the county a petition signed by all but 2 FD's in the county (1 vol & 1 career - not YFD, they signed).

I'd love to know more about it, thats why I was on the oversight committee, we were charged with determining all of those items, but as I previously wrote, the county stopped having meetings as soon as we got up to minimum standards.

Maybe thats why some here are a little skeptical.

[Bull McCaffrey 162]

Are there going to be any PD ESU guys on the team? I know of one that's on the county Haz Mat team.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Chris - you are 100 % right - that is why I stated there needs to be verification & validation of training & resources - NIMS already outlines what the different levels of team are Type I. II. II. & IV. NFPA 1670 outlines training standards. Judging by the County's track record I am sure they will be just as effective as the County HazMat Team. "The Emperor Has No Clothes" - no one dare wants to say it or call them on it - the record speaks for itself. This is not a disparaging comment or an attack on any group but a statment based on reality!

Chief as I look back at my notes, I find the team was classified as a type IV team and the Special Operations Taskforce (which 1/2 was at the Eastchester incident) was classified as a level 3 team.

The Albany OFPC team is a Type II and the NYC FEMA USAR TF1 is a type I

Note a type III team needs a minimum of 28 responders in its initial response.

[billfitz 109]

I was also a member of the now vanquished committee!!!!!!!!!! - So I do have a little more insight than most on this board.

[texastom791 31]

Do you have to be in westchester if you wanna be on the team ?

[x635 4,066]

My opinion, just call Yonkers FD. You've all seen their USAR tractor trailer, NEW Collapse Unit, and Incident Support Unit, amongst other resources. You'll not only get the equipment, but a ton of throughly trained and in most cases, experienced firefighters. Usually 20+ of them. AND, Yonkers is also lucky to have ESU and other resources to cover while they're out of town (in addition to working together when they are in town), not leaving the community "stripped". Yonkers will also come and help train you to interface with them! They have been the leader and pioneer in Westchester in every firefighting specialty over the years.

Too much duplication of resources in Westchester. There is no plan, there is no working together, despite what anyone claims. And people wonder why we're in the budget crisis we're in. The money can be found for a County-based Tech Rescue team, but where's all the "hard work" and money for a new, modern 60 Control facility, more staffing and training, and most importantly...PAYING THEM A LIVING, DECENT WAGE!

As far as the whole volunteeer vs. career goes, whatever. Both sides have their egotistical idiots that I wouldn't want anywhere near me or my family in an emergency. Likewise, both "sides" have their educated, professional members. Having experienced both "sides", I really think there's no difference, and I know a lot of volunteers that have seen more fire action then career firefighters. However, with volunteer's dwindling, focus should not be lost on training and response, and dependence on mutual aid-for fire suppresion.

[x635 4,066]

Oh, and as far as Greenburgh PD's team is concerned, with Fairview and Hartsdale FD (EXCLUDING Greenville), yes they are well trained and well equipped. BUT, HFD and FFD can't even staff a truck company with more then a driver and sometimes an Engine company with more then two guys. And GPD can barely staff an ambulance or EMS system, much less provide consistent patrol coverage in all their sectors. And they want to run Tech Rescue. As far as GPD is concerned, they want the staffing, but the town won't provide the funding. As with Hartsdale FD, I don't think staffing their truck company is anywhere on their "to do" list.

What I'm getting at is if you don't have the resources to do what you're supposed to do, do it properly and well, then don't get involved in all the extracurricular activities especially when there are such vast resources available so close.

[INIT915 1,119]

yes to me! am i not allowed to speak my opinion? did i insult anyone with what i said? if so we need much thicker skin! FYI this forum is not the genaral public soooooo we ALL know what im saying!!

Actually, there are some general public members, as well as media/news members.

[Guest Chiefmcfuz]

It all comes back to the donuts

Yes, yes it does.

Thanks Ed

just a note for you signature quote regarding the (2) firefighters

from the outside they may be (2) firefighters but from a training aspect you clearly know that the Career Brother has been through the fire acdemy. As for the Vol. that may not be the case and everyone knows it! Maybe im being bias and it does not have anything to do with the situation but you make that the main thing that jumps out on you post and i felt the need to answer. My feelings are my own you do not need to agree.

Jeremy

Jeremy

Thanks for your input too but I hardly think the person who's house is on fire sees it your way and that topic is something for another thread or a PM not for this thread.

This thread is to celebrate and congratulate this team. Great Job again guys!

[lad12derff 283]

Do you have to be in westchester if you wanna be on the team ?

No, you can respond from as far away as possible and arrive in a timely fashion. I heard at the kitchen table guys from as far away as Herkimer county wanted on.

[Guest Firediver]

How often is this "Team" going to train? one weekend a month? quarterly? semi-annually? will it just be the guys that can make it? or will everyone (thats qualified) train? no exceptions? or can you just make "Most" of the training? it's not a knock !!!!! I DON'T KNOW! That is why I ask.