PD uses FD uniforms to arrest armed subject - good call or just crazy?

[abaduck 123]

http://www.firefightingnews.com/article.cfm?articleID=62960

"Police in Newport, N.H., say they dressed as firefighters to trick a man and arrest him after he pointed a shotgun at an officer. Police set off a fire alarm to evacuate an apartment building Tuesday night and arrested 34-year-old Matthew Miller when he opened his door."

Now I'm all for assisting our LE colleagues in any way we can. But compromising our identity by having armed cops dress as firefighters for a LE operation crosses a line, IMHO.

[INIT915 1,119]

http://www.firefightingnews.com/article.cfm?articleID=62960

"Police in Newport, N.H., say they dressed as firefighters to trick a man and arrest him after he pointed a shotgun at an officer. Police set off a fire alarm to evacuate an apartment building Tuesday night and arrested 34-year-old Matthew Miller when he opened his door."

Now I'm all for assisting our LE colleagues in any way we can. But compromising our identity by having armed cops dress as firefighters for a LE operation crosses a line, IMHO.

I think it just makes us even for FF's conducting traffic stops! (Note: I'm just kidding)

In all seriousness, this is a problem and is inappropriate. It's the same reason use of the International Red Cross symbol for tactical purposes is a Geneva Convention violation.

That's assuming the reporting is accurate.

[abaduck 123]

The reporting appears accurate. Google news gives many stories concerning this:

http://news.google.com/news?ned=us&hl=...tthew+Miller%22

This story gives more detail:

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?he...4a-317d7caeac1e

"Police obtained arrest and search warrants for Miller and his Sunapee Street residence and called in officers from Claremont, Sunapee and Goshen to help execute them.

The Newport Fire Department also was alerted in case medical care was needed.

"Police officers dressed as firefighters and using a fire truck entered the building and activated the fire alarm to evacuate residents in a safe manner so as not to bring attention to the pending arrest of Miller," Newport Police Chief David Hoyt said in a news release.

As residents evacuated the building, police officers saw Miller in his apartment window with a one-year-old child in his arms. When he opened his apartment door, the faux firefighters seized the child from his arms and took him into custody without incident, Hoyt said."

So it was apparently done with the co-operation of the local FD. But I still agree with INIT915; this sucks, for precisely the reasons stated; the Red Cross analogy is a good one. OK, it worked in this tactical situation; it solved this problem. But what does it do to scene safety for all of us, down the line?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

This is highly highly inappropriate and endangers the safety of other emergency services personnel in that area. This isn't the first time that this has happened. A department in the south, I believe in a large Texas city did the same thing, however in their case they didn't notify the fire department of their activity and the FD was very upset. This is something that is often discussed not only on the FD/EMS side but also within tactical teams in courses I've attended as a huge no no.

With that in mind, I am not faulting the PD for trying to get an edge on bringing in a dangerous perp. I more fault the FD for going along with the concept and not taking in the total risk that could be involved. As a tactical medic I try to do all in my power and capability (along with my co-workers) to foster a high level of inter agency cooperation and support which is critical for overall outcomes of incidents with combined operations. Some simple discussion of the risks and I'm sure the PD would not have been upset to come up with another plan. In fact I had a similiar incidence come about last summer where my tac team had a call out however their primary vehicle was down. The local VAC offerred one of their ambulances for use and was in the planning stages until the entire team starting arriving and I voiced my concern to my other tac medics who were with me, the tac team leader and the VAC Capt who all agreed and we came up with another plan to get an adequate and appropriate vehicle.

If that ambulance was used...it would have put all their members at risk as how would anyone know when it pulls up if its EMS personnel or tactical operators getting ready to pour out of it. The risk outweights the benefits.

[NJMedic 96]

The chief of the Newport FD should be slapped upside the head. :angry:

[Bull McCaffrey 162]

So let me get this straight,

-A cop respond to this guy's apartment on a report of a noise complaint.

-The maniac points a shotgun in the face of the officer and threatens to kill him.

-The cop is able to convince this guy to put down his weapon and he's allowed to leave.

-Before doing so the officer notices, scoped rifles, automatic weapons, body armor, night vision goggles and a SMALL CHILD in the apartment with this guy.

-The police, realizing the severity of the situation come up with a plan to safely evacuate EVERYONE from the building AND get this lunatic to come out with the child as well without a single shot being fired only to get criticized by the armchair critics at Emtbravo? Ya gotta be kidding me!

This plan was brilliant and it endangered no one. In fact it probably saved lives. From what the article says, the only reason that the FD was there in the first place was in case something went wrong and medical aid was needed. It's not like it was the firemen who made the apprehension, it was cops dressed as FD. I have a couple of brothers that are NYPD and many times they tell me how they disguise themselves in a variety of ways as to get an edge on some of these violent criminals.

Would some of you have preferred that there had been some sort of standoff in the building with the kid trapped inside? This was perfect and the outcome shows it.

Now please can someone tell me a negative side to this? How were people put "at greater risk" as someone of you put it? I just don't see it. The only thing I can see is now criminals might be a little more leary when they see non LE emergency workers around but I can guarantee that when some perp is trapped on the 5th floor of an OMD he's still gonna be glad to see the red trucks pulling up front.

[INIT915 1,119]

Now please can someone tell me a negative side to this? How were people put "at greater risk" as someone of you put it? I just don't see it. The only thing I can see is now criminals might be a little more leary when they see non LE emergency workers around but I can guarantee that when some perp is trapped on the 5th floor of an OMD he's still gonna be glad to see the red trucks pulling up front.

I'm very surprised to hear any FF take this position.

Herein lies the problem. Next time the FD arrives, for a LEGITIMATE reason, this guy (or any other criminal pyscho) who thinks it just may be the PD, there to "trick him" again, is going to do something extreme, such as open fire upon the FD crew, who is only there for some BS legitimate FD function.

So you want to jump out of your engine in front of this guys apartment in the future? If he assumes you to be PD (in disguise), he may just take actions that your not prepared to handle.

Edited March 5, 2009 by INIT915

[vtach39680 23]

Well with regard to people being confused and not knowing if FD is a tactical unit or the FD we do have ambulances in a town that have police on the side and front but treat patients and also pull people over as well as preform other LE duties. I can not tell you how many times I have heard I got pulled over by an ambulance and they gave me a ticket. (this SOP) causes greater confusion and harm to non LE emergency responders then the PD asking and getting permission from the FD to use there personnel, and the FD equipment to end a possible dangerous situation.

just my 2 cents

I am not saying the police were right or wrong nor the FD just stating facts on the poss. confusion issue

PS the best uniform I ever had was green pants white shirt and orange patches. NYCHHC EMS

Edited March 5, 2009 by vtach39680

[Guest Local596Secretary]

I'm very surprised to hear any FF take this position.

Herein lies the problem. Next time the FD arrives, for a LEGITIMATE reason, this guy (or any other criminal pyscho) who thinks it just may be the PD, there to "trick him" again, is going to do something extreme, such as open fire upon the FD crew, who is only there for some BS legitimate FD function.

So you want to jump out of your engine in front of this guys apartment in the future? If he assumes you to be PD (in disguise), he may just take actions that your not prepared to handle.

I agree completely. Any PFD boys know the actual events involving the following anecdote please add. Stories from the old timers tell of PD officers using the second story of old Engine 2's quarters for surveillance. After getting arrested and seeing the PD coming out of our station on numerous occasions, the "locals" began to get wise to it. Shortly thereafter bullet holes were seen in the bay doors and we began seeing a decline in respectful treatment. We put a stop to the practice as our actions require somewhat of an understanding with these less then lawful individuals that we are not their enemies and only wish to provide them help when needed.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

Who got arested for pulling the false alarm?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

So let me get this straight,

-The police, realizing the severity of the situation come up with a plan to safely evacuate EVERYONE from the building AND get this lunatic to come out with the child as well without a single shot being fired only to get criticized by the armchair critics at Emtbravo? Ya gotta be kidding me!

This plan was brilliant and it endangered no one. In fact it probably saved lives. From what the article says, the only reason that the FD was there in the first place was in case something went wrong and medical aid was needed. It's not like it was the firemen who made the apprehension, it was cops dressed as FD. I have a couple of brothers that are NYPD and many times they tell me how they disguise themselves in a variety of ways as to get an edge on some of these violent criminals.

Would some of you have preferred that there had been some sort of standoff in the building with the kid trapped inside? This was perfect and the outcome shows it.

Now please can someone tell me a negative side to this? How were people put "at greater risk" as someone of you put it? I just don't see it. The only thing I can see is now criminals might be a little more leary when they see non LE emergency workers around but I can guarantee that when some perp is trapped on the 5th floor of an OMD he's still gonna be glad to see the red trucks pulling up front.

I think I already discussed some of the negative sides about "this" in my intial post, I can get into it deeper if you'd like, let me know and I'll get up from my armchair and share my LE, FD and tactical operations experience with you.

Perhaps if us "arm chair critics" of EMTBravo don't fit your likings...do a search on the same topic on Firehouse.com forums...maybe you'll like some of their posts better.

Just because an outcome didn't involve injury or death doesn't make it "perfect."

"Leery" criminals are the ones who often act irrational. You do have one point...no one will care when they are trapped on the 5th floor of an OMD. Too bad that 99% of our calls don't involve that and 95% of those investigative/service calls.

I have been involved in many situations where everything but PD uniforms were worn...and not once were they any other uniformed service. Then again as you said..."to get an edge on some of these violent criminals." So having them wear a FD uniform is a great edge that puts members of that FD in danger and its pretty obvious why that could be..."violent criminals." Its not an added burden that needs to be carried...and if one FF in the country were to be killed because of something like this...that's 1 too many.

And yes...there were several other options that could have led to a "successful" outcome. Back to my armchair.

[x129K 1,393]

I agree completely. Any PFD boys know the actual events involving the following anecdote please add. Stories from the old timers tell of PD officers using the second story of old Engine 2's quarters for surveillance. After getting arrested and seeing the PD coming out of our station on numerous occasions, the "locals" began to get wise to it. Shortly thereafter bullet holes were seen in the bay doors and we began seeing a decline in respectful treatment. We put a stop to the practice as our actions require somewhat of an understanding with these less then lawful individuals that we are not their enemies and only wish to provide them help when needed.

I was going to mention that!

[helicopper 1,050]

Why don't we chalk this up to a unique resolution to a very dangerous situation. From the perspective that the building was safely and effectively and evacuated and the suspect taken into custody with no injury to the child or police it was a success.

I can certainly understand the concern about police using fire uniforms or equipment as urban camoflauge and if they were doing routine narcotics enforcement or regular surveillance I'd be the first to agree with you. Given the circumstances, it was the best they had so they went with it. Don't knock them for it.

If you really want to raise the "safety" flag, why do so many EMS uniforms resemble tactical police uniforms?

[INIT915 1,119]

If you really want to raise the "safety" flag, why do so many EMS uniforms resemble tactical police uniforms?

I can totally agree with that concern.

[Guest ffjay376]

its bad enough that there is alread crazy people that have it out for fire fighters we have to have tactical police (because we all know that beat cops dont do raids) dressed up as fire fighters. we loose the respect of citizen that dislike law enforcement. its just another reson for people to loose respect in the fire service

[Guest WCDES636]

I think it just makes us even for FF's conducting traffic stops! (Note: I'm just kidding)

Dont laugh it happened today. Engine ( North County ) called in the pursuit. You can not make this stuff up!!!!!!!

[SageVigiles 1,194]

You'll also notice alot of the comments on Officer.com agree with the position that this was an irresponsible move.

I'm all for creative tactics by law enforcement, but do we really want this kind of tactic repeated? How far will it go before criminals suspect everyone in a firetruck/ambulance or FD/EMS uniform of being law enforcement. Aren't these jobs dangerous enough? We're going down a bad path here.

I respect the difficulty in tactical entry, but there has to be a line, and I believe that here it has been crossed.

[Remember585 815]

I think this can almost fall into the same category as EMS people wearing uniforms that make them look like cops. You know the ones, dark blue tactical with the ESU type embroidery on the back. It's almost like painting a target on your back.

If you've got some guy whacked out ready to take people down, I don't think it will matter what uniform you're wearing. A lot of people see someone in a uniform - even turnout gear - and assume they're cops. I've been called "Officer" dozens of times, "Paramedic" twice that. People don't know one profession from the next sometimes.

Everyone should just wear kevlar...

[NJMedic 96]

I really don't but into the idea the EMS uniforms look like PD uniforms. Yeah maybe to use but for the general public they can't tell the difference. In my EMS uniform (white shirt/black pants, no badge) I've been referred to as the police, fire, EMS, sheriff, security, gas station attendant, movie usher, etc.

[DR104 141]

I really don't but into the idea the EMS uniforms look like PD uniforms. Yeah maybe to use but for the general public they can't tell the difference. In my EMS uniform (white shirt/black pants, no badge) I've been referred to as the police, fire, EMS, sheriff, security, gas station attendant, movie usher, etc.

Did you mean buy not but? Just look at the pixs fro the Popes visit to Yonkers and tell me they don't look like ESU cops!! I think it was a smart idea for them to pull the alarm to get the people out of the building, but not to have the cops in FD uniforms to make the arrest. They(PD) could have been waiting for him outside when he came out. Half the people out there don't even n\know who is who,I too have been call officer,ambulace person(and alot of other things too!!LOL)

[ryefd192 2]

They(PD) could have been waiting for him outside when he came out.

This was my question, not coming from a PD background. Would it have been any less effective to have the cops in plain clothes acting as other residents of the building, and then doing what they did; or even like DR said, waiting outside? I just don't see why going in as FD was thought to be the best idea. Especially if, God forbid, one of the other residents had needed help when evacuated, or gotten hurt coming down stairs or whatever; what would the PD guys have done, say "I'm sorry I'm not actually firefighter, I can't help you right now" ? I just feel like this was not a situation that was thought through completely.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

I am sure that people watch police shows. Have you ever seen an LEO dress up as a "PACKAGE DELIVERY PERSON" to do a controlled drug bust? That is WAY more dangerous than what happened here. The situationi was resolved without anybody getting hurt and that should be the main thing. No what if's either because there were NONE.

Edited March 6, 2009 by Chris192
Inflammatory remark removed.

[INIT915 1,119]

I am sure that people watch police shows. Have you ever seen an LEO dress up as a "PACKAGE DELIVERY PERSON" to do a controlled drug bust? That is WAY more dangerous than what happened here. Sorry that the FD had to get up off their couches and ARSE'S and do some work to help the PD out. Give me a break. The situationi was resolved without anybody getting hurt and that should be the main thing. No what if's either because there were NONE.

The UPS example presents similar dangers. I wouldn't want to be the next "actual" UPS driver to visit that building/apartment.

You say there were no what if's. You might be right (so far). What will really determine the success will be any future events that transpire as a result of this "game."

No one who plans/handles tactical police situations would deem this event a model.

[INIT915 1,119]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7510423.stm

Here it is in a nutshell, yet on a larger stage.

Mr Uribe said that just one member of the team had worn the emblem "contradicting official orders" because he was nervous about the operation.

Falsely portraying military personnel as Red Cross workers is against the Geneva Conventions because it could put humanitarian workers at risk when carrying out missions in war zones.

It also undermines the neutrality of the Red Cross.

Same principals apply in this case.

[INIT915 1,119]

An updated news story from N.H.

http://www.theunionleader.com/article.aspx...86-0cd112c36164

CONCORD – Firefighter groups said yesterday they don't want a repeat of a Newport incident where police disguised themselves as firefighters to make an arrest.

Portsmouth Fire Chief Christopher LeClaire said it's important that firefighters always be seen as rescuers, not as threats or adversaries.

"Not to Monday-morning quarterback," he said, "but when the line gets blurred, it creates a very dangerous situation for us." Police used a fire truck and firemen's outfits Tuesday night to trick Matthew Miller, 34, into leaving his apartment on Sunapee Street so they could arrest him.

They said use of their gear to make arrests puts all firefighters in jeopardy when they respond to fires and rescue situations. They have asked Attorney General Kelly Ayotte and Commissioner of Safety John Barthelmes to convene a meeting to set clear guidelines for the future.

David Lang, president of the Professional Fire Fighters of New Hampshire, was most critical.

"The use of the firefighter and paramedic image in this way is inappropriate, should not be condoned and is not negotiable," he said.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Oneeye...we normally agree but sorry bro you're wrong on this one. You know as well as I that our jobs and some of the decisions we make are based on the what if's. Also this isn't the first time that this has occurred as I mentioned about a large city in Texas's Tac Team did the same thing. It was quickly afterwards banned from every being able to be done again.

As my post said...just because no one got hurt doesn't make it a totally successful operation.

Edited March 6, 2009 by Truck4
Reference to deleted post (based on complaints) removed

[abaduck 123]

ALS is right on the money... and it *wasn't* a unique situation, ALS mentioned Texas, I've now read about similar situations in Providence RI, and DC.

[IzzyEng4 427]

About 10-15 years ago a city next door to where I live did the same thing when trying to bust up a drug operation in a residential home. The PD officers had one of the FD's trucks pull up to the scene, they jumpped off wearing FD turnouts, said there was a gas leak or something to that fact and made the raid into the home. There was a public outcry of this action because it puts the FD at risk. In my town we have a housing complex where there was high gang / drug activity at the time and needless to say we got those "dirty looks" when we got called down there for calls for quite sometime.

I do not beleive and support the use of a PD agency to "impersonate" another public saftey / public works agency to make arrests. This compromises all of us and now make us targets. I rather wear a big o' bull's eye on my back than have this happen.

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

Oneeye...we normally agree but sorry bro you're wrong on this one. You know as well as I that our jobs and some of the decisions we make are based on the what if's. Also this isn't the first time that this has occurred as I mentioned about a large city in Texas's Tac Team did the same thing. It was quickly afterwards banned from every being able to be done again.

As my post said...just because no one got hurt doesn't make it a totally successful operation.

I don't think that I am wrong for thinking that it might have been a good idea. You guys go to fires in some pretty crappy placed don't you? What is the difference that the PD usued you guys as a tool to get a dangerous person out of a building and into custody? THat is why I love the USA, we can still get along.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I don't think that I am wrong for thinking that it might have been a good idea. You guys go to fires in some pretty crappy placed don't you? What is the difference that the PD usued you guys as a tool to get a dangerous person out of a building and into custody? THat is why I love the USA, we can still get along.

Your still my brotha...brotha!

First I got to point out bro, which totally makes my case...that it was also just recently confirmed to me that Ramathorn also took a verbal after dressing up as a beer distributor delivery guy and busting that underage drinking party in Spurberry.

I didn't say I thought you were wrong for thinking it might have been a good idea...I was basing it on the tone of your post that I took it as meaning that it just was a great idea and hell lets do it again. I'm just basing my input from my experiences, reading on similiar topics as this has come along and some of my tactical training which this was discussed.

Where I work..yeah we have some pretty crappy places we get fires and ems calls in. The difference is I don't shout "stop police" at the fire or my patient...and I don't have to dress like cop to make it or me feel safer.

Hey if Rodney King can forgive...I think we can too! Go Rodney!!!!...the shining star of Sober House!

Edited March 7, 2009 by alsfirefighter