Incident Voyeurism

[ny10570 745]

In a recent thread about a Dutchess shooting a question was raised concerning the appropriateness of discussing the details of that type of incident.

I agree that the pressing need for info and details about any of these incidents is a bit strange whether it be a fire, mva, or crime; but it goes hand in hand with increasingly voyeuristic nature of society. I was at a serious MVA last night and pulling up noticed the usual gawkers with cell phones in hand. What surprised the hell out of me was returning to the scene only to find what was 3 or 4 people had become well over a dozen in area with zero foot traffic at that time of night. At a fire it use to be the usual buff taking some shots. Now its many guys with some impressive equipment all clamoring for their shot. At a recent fire, between the command post and ladders it was damn near impossible for the poor guys to get a good shot and these guys were getting a bit annoying. Within hours these photos and videos are up on the internet and now even news networks are on the bandwagon soliciting peoples photos and videos for immediate national broadcast.

[helicopper 1,050]

It does seem to be a societal change. The prevalence of 24 hour news outlets, internet news, text alerts, etc. has created a media monster that feeds on even the most routine events. People expect and demand immediate information where it used to be reading about it the next day in the newspaper or watching a newsreel on Saturday at the movies.

It's really strange. 25 years ago you'd never read an incomplete news story ending with "read more later" or "full story tomorrow".

It goes right along with the instant connectivity we all "enjoy" today. Remember when you left the house and couldn't be reached until you got to work? WOW, what a change!

[OnTheWheel 43]

This is what causes traffic jams, rubberneckers! Probably the oldest form of this "Voyeurism" sickness. Never ceases to amaze me how much traffic can get screwed up in the south bound lane when the accident is north bound on a four lane highway. Then 15 feet past the incident youre instantly back to 65mph. Goes back to my old theory, mind your business and worry about yourself and not rear ending the car in front of you! (unless someone needs help of course)

And that backhoe incident was on lohud probably before they cleared the scene!

[x134 46]

So what would be different if an incident alert had been created for the shooting in Arlington and someone out there was listening? I don't see the point. If that is the case and people can't ask questions why is this site even here? You might as well get rid if the incident alert section also. Yes, I find it a little odd that someone wanted more info than what was in the paper about it, but that's what makes this site good, people from all walks of life involved in public service asking questions.

I was just looking through the site and moose wanted more info on a fire in Port Chester.

Edited March 1, 2009 by x134

[TAPSJ 30]

I agree if you don't want people to know what is going on out thier or ask questions, just get rid of IA section. Because it would be pointless to have it, if you want people not to worry about someone else's call. We learn from these IA alerts and from being on that scene. We learn from radio traffic and the people talking pictures. We always ask about that one call, What happen? Who was thier? Why didn't this happen? People are going to hear about a call from thier scanner, at the firehouse, the paper, or online. So please just let it go, if someone asks. If thier asking for names then yea that isn't need, but an idea of what happened is good. Because who cares if it is EMS or Fire, we all want to know. If you dont want people to know what happened on someone's call then don't look in the IA form on here at all.

Thomas

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Since I'm one of the ones that often comments with my opinion on other people requests for information about incidents.

I have commented on threads that discuss certain incidents as questions are asked or ideas are pursued about tactics, conditions etc. I have never been critical of the IA's and I realize how immensely popular they are on the site. One of the reasons why it doesn't irk me that much is that they followed a formatted system for the posting of an incident and is in fact somewhat similar to I guess sitting at home listening to the scanner, instead you are just reading the info.

The thing that I don't get...are the ones who make a thread to ask about a particular incident that I would take has no IA for whatever reason. Perhaps it irks me because I can't stand those that call the station or see you on scene and want to question you up and down about specifics of an incident that they already know for the most part what happened...but feel the need to have juicy details.

With that said...this is my opinion on it. Just as some of your insights I respect in the thread about a shooting in Arlington's district prior to it being closed. I just for one in some aspects think its pretty nosy, buffy and ridiculous to ask specifics about a job. If there is an IA and that is what flips your boat...read them. If there isn't one...guess it wasn't meant to be out there.

[helicopper 1,050]

I think there's a difference between reading an IA and stopping at an accident scene/incident to gawk. Obviously there's a difference between the public and emergency responders/media/photographers/etc.

[jayhalsey 6]

The thing that I don't get...are the ones who make a thread to ask about a particular incident that I would take has no IA for whatever reason. Perhaps it irks me because I can't stand those that call the station or see you on scene and want to question you up and down about specifics of an incident that they already know for the most part what happened...but feel the need to have juicy details.

But dont you need to make a new thread to ask about an IA, since we cant reply to an IA?

It would bother me too to have someone call the station or question me on scene about an incident. But isnt that what this site is for? Isnt that why Incident alerts are posted? To get info out and for people to ask questions about incidents? Obviously there are going to be instances where some info cannot be shared, that goes without saying.

[Billy 68]

We may be getting off the original topic here a little bit but if we're talking about IA's here on the website I think the question becomes exactly what additional information is being requested? If its a shooting for instance, asking how many times or where a person was shot is crossing the line. Asking about how an LODD or injury occurred at a scene is obviously crossing the line. It's way different than wanting to know more information about how bad a working fire was or what units were operating.

It's true about the increase in the number of people at incidents though. Its a result of technology and the internet and definitely YOUTUBE! Even on this website (as well as the news media)I question the need for the posting of some of these car crash incident photos. Some of them are pretty nasty and unless there is some educational value to the photos, what's the point?

[Guest paramedico987]

I believe the preferred term is "buff" rather than voyeur, which has a rather negative connotation.

[Guest Photounit]

So, I guess then I'm a voyeuristic Buff then?

[Guest]

So, I guess then I'm a voyeuristic Buff then?

Bill

I have seen you operate at incidents. You always look out for what is going on around you and not get "in the way". In my opinion you can in no way be classified as a voyeuristic buff. You have always shown the working side of the incident with respect shown to any of the victims that may be present by not including them in your photo work. If more people show the attitude you show regularly, then I guess we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

But dont you need to make a new thread to ask about an IA, since we cant reply to an IA?

It would bother me too to have someone call the station or question me on scene about an incident. But isnt that what this site is for? Isnt that why Incident alerts are posted? To get info out and for people to ask questions about incidents? Obviously there are going to be instances where some info cannot be shared, that goes without saying.

I can concur with some of your thoughts...however my comments are directed towards questions being asked about incidents that have no IA and also where questions are asked solely for nothing more then an individuals uncanny need to know about something occuring. I often try to answer questions in incident discussion threads as it can be a learning and knowledgable environment that I even have learned from others on the site. But I wouldn't make a thread asking "was there a (insert here, shooting, accident, etc) in (insert here.)," for no apparant reason when it has nothing to do with me. I will also be upfront and say how I think that the posting of law enforcement activity is completely off the wall and I know many officers that also feel the same.

Billy...that is a great post. I also have no issue with someone like photounit taking photos at an incident as he sounds highly professional in what he does. What I really don't get is the amount of people lined up on the sidewalks with jackets on from all over the county I work in and often neighboring counties to watch someone else's job.

[Guest]

To get back to the original thread it all goes back to crowd control whether its Fire police or regular police (state, county , town village etc) if people are in your way they need to get removed from that area

Edited March 4, 2009 by JHK3605

[snkbitn 2]

In a recent thread about a Dutchess shooting a question was raised concerning the appropriateness of discussing the details of that type of incident.

I agree that the pressing need for info and details about any of these incidents is a bit strange whether it be a fire, mva, or crime; but it goes hand in hand with increasingly voyeuristic nature of society. I was at a serious MVA last night and pulling up noticed the usual gawkers with cell phones in hand. What surprised the hell out of me was returning to the scene only to find what was 3 or 4 people had become well over a dozen in area with zero foot traffic at that time of night. At a fire it use to be the usual buff taking some shots. Now its many guys with some impressive equipment all clamoring for their shot. At a recent fire, between the command post and ladders it was damn near impossible for the poor guys to get a good shot and these guys were getting a bit annoying. Within hours these photos and videos are up on the internet and now even news networks are on the bandwagon soliciting peoples photos and videos for immediate national broadcast.

There are several topics being discussed in this thread. I looked for the thread where I had read that inappropriate question and I don''t see it. My thoughts were that this site was for learning and asking questions of each other. (Information Sharing)The member who asked the question had no educational reason to want more info, he wanted to know because he was being curious. He wasn't the first or the last person to ever want more info. The "Buff" comes out in everybody. The awkwardness comes from the members of those departments who were at the incident. Not many Fire Departments have a public information officer, generally I believe in Dutchess County that person is the Chief staff. The problem lies on who gives the authority to release information to the public. Sure if the information is picked up in scanner world then I guess it's fair game. The concern that I have is anyone from an individual agency regardless of the type should be careful of what they post. Some information just should not be posted or broad casted. Again the site was meant for members to use it as an learning tool. There are obviously members of the media on the site, isn't it "truck4" who post's incidents that are false so the media posts on the Buff page networks? The media is taking the information it finds here and they are writing there own stories. Maybe that information was not meant for public knowledge with out a press release or a FOIL request.

[gamewell45 258]

In a recent thread about a Dutchess shooting a question was raised concerning the appropriateness of discussing the details of that type of incident.

I agree that the pressing need for info and details about any of these incidents is a bit strange whether it be a fire, mva, or crime; but it goes hand in hand with increasingly voyeuristic nature of society. I was at a serious MVA last night and pulling up noticed the usual gawkers with cell phones in hand. What surprised the hell out of me was returning to the scene only to find what was 3 or 4 people had become well over a dozen in area with zero foot traffic at that time of night. At a fire it use to be the usual buff taking some shots. Now its many guys with some impressive equipment all clamoring for their shot. At a recent fire, between the command post and ladders it was damn near impossible for the poor guys to get a good shot and these guys were getting a bit annoying. Within hours these photos and videos are up on the internet and now even news networks are on the bandwagon soliciting peoples photos and videos for immediate national broadcast.

It's tough to keep the working press (those with proper credentials from an authorized agency) away from accident/fire/ems scenes. In many cases they will cross fire lines that have been established and if you challenge them, it can get very ugly, very quickly. In many cases it can involve litigation against the agency who prevented the press from crossing the line.

The general public is much easier to contain; putting up a fire/police ems line generally solves the problem and if the gawkers insist on crossing the line, you can always sic the police or fire police on them.

Legally, as long as they stay outside the fire/police lines and/or as long as they are not interfering with the operations/placing themselves in danger they can shoot/tape all they want.

[ny10570 745]

A significant portion, I'd go as far as to say the vast majority of the incidents on this site offer absolutely no educational value. Either there isn't enough information or people don't want to open themselves or their dept to any potential criticism. Occasionally there is a unique incident where a brief review of what was done offers a chance for learning and once in a while an incident will spark a conversation questioning how or why we do things. Sadly, this is far from the norm. Taking the Westchester IA for example. The last 10 incidents generated zero discussion that anyone could have learned from. The 11th incident was the croton car vs backhoe and all that did was trot out the old air vs ground transport debate. Before that is the Bronxville Trench collapse from 2/12 in which only 2 out of 20 posts mention what was done to extricate the victim. The vast majority of this site is used to oohh and aahh over what others are doing and buying. Attempts to critique are slammed as monday morning quarterbacking and people are generally afraid to admit flaws in their response and operations. The whole point of this rant, since we're clearly dedicating more of our time to hear about and look at these incidents rather than discuss and analyze them; what makes a fire or mva acceptable and a medical emergency or police related activity unacceptable?

[Goose 188]

It's just the way it is here - its a microcosm of where we live really.

As far as discussing and learning there are two issues. Most people don't give a crap about the real issues (i had posted twice about a DC organization that speaks to congress about EMS and our needs and i don't think there was one reply in it) and dissenting opinions are scored upon. The second i convey my opinion i'm either too young and thus inexperienced to have one, don't know what I'm talking about, or too harsh (i only use me as an example because its easy).

But hey, when a plane lands on 684 or a commuter train derails and it takes a year and a day to get the job done, we can pat ourselves on the back here and say how great we did and then go back to business as usual. Point is, no one wants to address, discuss or debate the meat and potatoes stuff - how do we get ambulances out, how do we get properly staffed fire trucks out, how do we provide better service to our community, etc. etc. etc.

Oh well.

[Truck4 48]

I'm not really sure where this thread is going, but I'll address a couple of points.

First, we present to the membership the Incident Alerts. What you do with the information is up to you. I, too, wish the information would be used for more intellectual purposes, but unfortunately, a lot of the time, it is not.

Nothing in the Incident Alerts is not in the realm of public information. Be it dispatch information or on-scene accounts, there are no state secrets being sold here. Most incidents can be found in the newspaper or on TV. It is the responsibility of the media outlet to attribute and fact-check, but again, nothing posted here is not something the media can easily find out on their own. No information posted in an Incident Alert would be subject to a FOIL request.

As far as police officers thinking the IA's are "off the wall?" Well, that's news to me. Anyone with a question or issue about how the Incident Alert section is presented is and always has been welcome to contact me by PM.

As a side-note- working media credentials, unless specifically stated, do not permit anyone within an established crime or fire scene without permission.

[27east 19]

I don't know why I am taking the time at 1:53am to respond to this, but yes, I have posted a thread a time or two asking about a particular incident I had heard about or perhaps seen for whatever reason. But I think some people are taking this a bit too far.

I agree that it does cross the line to ask about the extent of an injury or who was hurt (as has been asked here before).

But to ask "what happened in XYZ tonight? I saw/there multiple police agencies or mutual aid VAC/FD there." really isn't a big deal. If someone takes the time to respond then clearly someone else has asked or already told a third party about it.

[jayhalsey 6]

I can concur with some of your thoughts...however my comments are directed towards questions being asked about incidents that have no IA and also where questions are asked solely for nothing more then an individuals uncanny need to know about something occuring. I often try to answer questions in incident discussion threads as it can be a learning and knowledgable environment that I even have learned from others on the site. But I wouldn't make a thread asking "was there a (insert here, shooting, accident, etc) in (insert here.)," for no apparant reason when it has nothing to do with me. I will also be upfront and say how I think that the posting of law enforcement activity is completely off the wall and I know many officers that also feel the same.

I definitely see where you are coming from, but am going to have to disagree. I guess it is just because I am more curious than you. Thats what it boils down to, I think. People who may have com across soemthing going on, and are looking for soem more information on what was happening. That is one of the goals of this website, i thought. To spread information.

I was on 287 a couple of weeks ago, and going through White Plains, we saw a large amount of smoke. When I got home, I was going to post asking what was going on in downtown White Plains, that day, but I saw that there was an IA about a workign job already. I personally don't see any problem with these types of posts.

Now the LE posts, I can agree with you on, especially for ongoin gincidents or investigations. After the fact though, I dont see any problem with posting what information has already been released to the media.

[Guest Local596Secretary]

When I first read the topic, I took it as a shot at the increase in photo buffs and all around rubbernecking. Perhaps I am reading it wrong as the topic has revolved around information concerning the details realted to the incident. I would just like to put my opinion out there regarding these photo buffs.

You are all welcome. I feel strongly that the more press, coverage, photos, and written word regarding our jobs is only a boost to our profession (as long as we do it right ). That being said, you should all follow Photounit's example of how to do it. He began showing up at our scenes a few years ago with his camera. Some of us knew him, but not all of us. Back then, he would stay back on the opposite sidewalk or on the outer edge of the working area. Slowly we all got to know him and he would come closer with each incident. Over time, he has shown a remarkable ability to remain out of everyone's way. This is harder than it seems for most people due to wanting the shot and always keeping your eye in the viewfinder. He can do it exceptionally well. If you have this ability then you should prove it to the men your photographing and let them become used to seeing you. Eventually, like we do for photounit, we will start to look for you (almost expect you) in the crowd.

[x134 46]

When I first read the topic, I took it as a shot at the increase in photo buffs and all around rubbernecking. Perhaps I am reading it wrong as the topic has revolved around information concerning the details realted to the incident. I would just like to put my opinion out there regarding these photo buffs.

You are all welcome. I feel strongly that the more press, coverage, photos, and written word regarding our jobs is only a boost to our profession (as long as we do it right ). That being said, you should all follow Photounit's example of how to do it. He began showing up at our scenes a few years ago with his camera. Some of us knew him, but not all of us. Back then, he would stay back on the opposite sidewalk or on the outer edge of the working area. Slowly we all got to know him and he would come closer with each incident. Over time, he has shown a remarkable ability to remain out of everyone's way. This is harder than it seems for most people due to wanting the shot and always keeping your eye in the viewfinder. He can do it exceptionally well. If you have this ability then you should prove it to the men your photographing and let them become used to seeing you. Eventually, like we do for photounit, we will start to look for you (almost expect you) in the crowd.

Agreed, We AT L-2393 LIKE TO SEE BILL AT OUR "BIG JOBS", as you said we almost expect it. By the way Bill great shots the other day!

[x635 4,066]

This site has become an information outlet that is depended on by many. I can name numerous times where this site has "come in handy", especially the Incident Alerts (which happens to be the most popular section by far). It's something that we've grown and refined from scratch.

I know a lot of guys (and gals) who check EMTBravo when they're out of town to see what's going on. Many others don't even listen to a scanner anymore and find out about the "good jobs" here....that goes for some very high ranking officials as well. Even some media outlets find out about incidents through EMTBravo. When there is an active incident, our numbers spike.

For those claiming that some people thinking our IA's are "off the wall" or "pointless", I challenge you to turn off your TV, Radio, put down the newspaper and turn off the internet. Because that's what fuels the media....peoples desire to be "in the know". And our community is no different.

We do our best to encourage participation and bring everyone together. We can't force people into participation. But for every negative thing a member can point out, I can think of 10 positive things about what the information on this forum has accomplished.

Now that digital cameras come in just about every digital device, it's revolutionizing the emergency services and internet photography worlds. Add in text messaging, cell phones, and just plain people on the street, and you've got tons of "rubberneckers". Many departments now have PIO's and have Flickr or Incident feeds on their own official sites!

Before this site, there was no "central" place to go for information. Since it's creation....just about everyone comes here to find out what's going on. And I don't see why that's a bad thing.

(And we're not the only forum or website of this kind out there.....)

Also, do you guys give this kind of grief to sports fans who are obsessed with up-to-the second scores? Man, those sports fans always need to know the scores! What's up with that?

[ny10570 745]

I agree that it does cross the line to ask about the extent of an injury or who was hurt (as has been asked here before).

Understanding the extent of the injuries is everything from an EMS perspective. Looking at wrecked car, collapsed house, fire, etc does nothing unless you know what injuries that resulted in. When trying to discuss a job, the damage caused to a house in a fire is as important as the injuries suffered by a person in an incident.

[27east 19]

Understanding the extent of the injuries is everything from an EMS perspective. Looking at wrecked car, collapsed house, fire, etc does nothing unless you know what injuries that resulted in. When trying to discuss a job, the damage caused to a house in a fire is as important as the injuries suffered by a person in an incident.

Good point NY10570. I guess what I was getting at with that was people on here really should not asking who the injured parties are if that infomation has not already been offically released.