Janitors or Firefighters ????

[Guest ocff75]

A story from Sunday Jan 22, 2005 Time Herald Record

Town of Wallkill – With a budget of more than $1 million this year and money from taxes pouring into the district, the Mechanicstown Fire Department has what the Town of Wallkill's six other volunteer fire departments don't have: deep pockets.

So it came as no surprise to most town officials when the 78-year-old all-volunteer fire department became the first outfit in the town to hire full-time employees.

Two weeks ago, Mechanicstown Chief Paul Smith hired a pair of firefighters to do the maintenance work that has been done by volunteers for nearly eight decades.

Scott Stevens and Dominick Guardino are both veterans of the fire department. As "fire janitors" – as they've been called by other volunteer firefighters – they'll earn a wage of $18 an hour, or $41,000 a year, paid out of the fire district's annual budget. "When a fire call comes in, if we need the manpower to respond, they punch out and go as volunteer firefighters," Smith says. "They do everything under the sun."

It's the first time the fire department, founded in 1927, has hired paid employees.

"We couldn't keep up with maintaining the equipment. We had to do it," Smith says.

The decision was made after studying similar initiatives in volunteer departments in Middle Hope, in the Town of Newburgh and towns in Long Island, Smith says.

He says taxes paid by homeowners in the district were not increased. The department, which protects, among other things, the nearby shopping malls, has more than enough money in the district budget from industrial taxes to fund the full-time positions, he says.

The move was approved by the district's five-member commission.

But local volunteer firefighters are grumbling over the decision. For some of them, it reinforces long-standing fears that they might be phased out by paid firefighters.

In diners, fire stations and Internet chat rooms across Orange County, the buzz among local volunteers – or "vollies" – is all about the new hires in Mechanicstown.

Some question what it means for firefighters in the region. Are they union? Will they be hiring paid firefighters? Do the taxpayers in the fire district know about it?

Others want to know why they're getting paid more than professional firefighters in Middletown and Newburgh, who earn between $18,000 and $29,000 annually. Town Supervisor John Ward says the town has no say in what the fire departments do with their money, unless it threatens the health and safety of town residents.

"They run their own show," Ward says. "We just collect district taxes for them."

This will help our Fire Dist. out alot !!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

How can the Volunteers be upset. You have to protect the public, when joe citizen calls the fire dept. they expect some one to show up. its nothing personal but I bet its happening more and more , that when someone calls the fd , no apparatus is showing up. Its the sign of the times. Look around Westchester county. The local Fire Depts. have a responsibilty to the local tax payer. :sad:

[mikeinet 37]

I think the big key here is that they're having these "people" clock out when the pager goes off... showing that they are not getting paid to fight fires. big difference.

[doug_e 0]

The amount of work required to maintain a fire department has increased dramatically over the past decade and this sounds like a viable solution. We pay a member a part-time wage to perform administrative duties. In our minds it doesn't make her a career firefighter.

However, historically these positions have evolved into career firefighting positions. In Mount Vernon the FD's building custodians became apparatus drivers and then ff's as the need warranted. The FF positions were formalized during the war and over the years were unionized and strengthened to the point where the volunteers were marginalized. Once that happened the volunteers disolved and the FDMV is a fully career dep't. Now that took 40 - 50 years and everyone lost out in the deal. The taxpayers in MV got a less, the career guys got a more dangerous job with more work, and the volunteers got shown the exit.

Career and volunteer should not be and are not mutually exclusive. For the highest quality service in areas like Westchester/Putnam, etc. we should be looking at both working together seamlessly. Just like we've done with not riding the backstep, wearing SCBA's, 2 in 2 out, and so many other changes we need to change how these two service types interact. It shouldn't be one or the other.

Just thinking out loud :-k

[E64PCFD2044 1]

didn't something like this happen in Westchester a few years ago?

[SteveOFD 176]

Yeah, ******* FD.

[WAS967 97]

******** does the same thing. Not sure if his official title is Janitor, but they have a paid guy on duty 8-4/5 days who responds to calls when needed. Not sure if he "punches out" to respond or not. And last time I talked to the Chief of ********, they have a paid guy on staff there during the day as well.

[Guest]

I have some concerns about this janitor issue. Federal, city, town, and county fire departments have a budget that revolves around money accrued from taxes set aside to pay paid firefighters. Do the taxpayers who pay towards volunteer departments know that their taxes are being raised every year to hire paid janitors that act as firefighters? God forbid one of these janitors gets injured or killed at a fire. Are you going to pay his salary to his family for the rest of his life like a municipality would?

[Guest ocff75]

Homer.J,

Mechanicstown's Chief is a paid driver/MPO with their neighboring district(Middletown) and I would assume a full member of their local IAFF , so I am sure he is well aware of many of the more touchy issues involved . . . Also, one of their "janitors" is a past chief and former commissioner of the department, so it'd be safe to say he understands the controversy as well . . .But I think, WHO cares !!!!

[doug_e 0]

As I wrote my response initially I was somewhat suspicious about the circumstances. Call me cynical but it sounds like a convenient equity distribution scheme.

My original question was why did they go this route? Wasn't the work getting done before? If not, then why, all of a sudden, do these guys find the time to get it done when there is remuneration involved? Sniff, sniff - hey what's that smell.....Fishy isn't it?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Because some departments and people just don't get it. They can't handle letting go and doing it correctly or can't handle the heat if they were the ones that had to do it.

Not to mention that there are out there whom will jump at this opportunity. But they won't call themselves "janitors" or "mechanics" on the street, will they? Nope. Just cause it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, doesn't mean it is. Take a look at your pay stub, and retirement (if they even give you one).

[Guest]

A Quote for ocff75 "Mechanicstown's Chief is a paid driver/MPO with their neighboring district(Middletown) and I would assume a full member of their local IAFF"

A IAFF member OKAYED the hiring of the Janitors !!!

[rob zombie 33]

lets include all of the "orange shirt" fire departments in westchester with the "janitor" fire depts and the "clerk" fire dept of ********. :---)

[Guest Car2037]

Just to play Devils Advocate .... I was wondering if anyone considered that it might be really legit to have two people staffed part time in the Fire house if they really were working on other things. I would love to have someone in our headquarters cleaning the bathrooms daily, mopping the floors, washing the apparatus, painting. Imagine how much nicer the house could be.

Or, if someone was computer savy and could add all the fire reports in to the system for the chiefs, prep for the training nights for the training officer, or even make the runs to pick up equipment from AAA or drop off and pick up apparatus. There's so many things going on in our Firehouses that it really could be a full time job.

Don't get me wrong .... if these two guys are drinking coffee all day, waiting for calls ... then I think it's a problem. But ... this leads me to a question ... how does your Firehouse get cleaned right now? We have a custodian, who does the cleaning off-hours, after his regular job. If you increase the money a little bit that he gets, I don't see why you couldn't get someone to be there 8 hours a day and get A LOT MORE DONE.

Just my 2 Cents

[E64PCFD2044 1]

if only everyone would understand you, Car2037, the world would be a better place.

I like that idea of yours...but I don't think it would work in most firehouses.

[JohnnyOV 2]

i agree with E64PCFD2044. It is an awsome idea, but unfortunatly for fire departments such as yorktown, there is not enough call volume to reasonably and practically staff somebody to stay at the fire deparment even if they punch out to run on calls.

[E64PCFD2044 1]

well, the whole point I was trying to make is that in a certain fire company you have members that are drivers and the die hards that come and clean up and stuff like that. its just not feasable to have outsiders driving our rig and being let into the firehouse..you know what I mean?

[spin_the_wheel 460]

In Nassau County on Long Island most larger Departments and even some smaller ones have this type of system. In Nassau there is a civil service title of "Firehouseman" as far as payscale goes it varies from Department to Department.

[Guest]

.  In Nassau there is a civil service title of "Firehouseman"  as far as payscale goes it varies from Department to Department.

They call them" FIREHOUSEMAN" So they don't have to pay them a fair wage, If it walks like a duck It's a duck. #-o

[spin_the_wheel 460]

maybe so...the "Firehouseman" title....but most are getting paid a very good wage..in fact I know a Department that hired 2 at almost 50,000 to start.

[Guest]

Nassau County Janitors are they Union or Un-Union???

Federal, city, town, and county fire departments have a budget that revolves around money accrued from taxes set aside to pay paid firefighters. Do the taxpayers who pay towards volunteer departments know that their taxes are being raised every year to hire paid janitors that act as firefighters? God forbid one of these janitors gets injured or killed at a fire. Are you going to pay his salary to his family for the rest of his life like a municipality would? How would you explain this to the tax payers?

[spin_the_wheel 460]

They are not in a union and "clock out" to respond to fire calls, most of the time only general alarms or working fires...I'm told the time lost is made up somewhere in the pay period. Compensation from injuries would come from that departments procedure for workmans comp or line of death compensations, all of this would be considered working as a volunteer, not as a "houseman".

I know this does not sit well with the paid unions, in Nassau we are lucky we do not have to deal with the animosity between the paid and Volunteer population. Of the 71 Departments only 2 have a small paid force on duty, 1 uses this force to run ambulance calls. Both of these Departments have had this situation since the time they formed almost. I remeber a few years back didnt the paid union in westchester have a demonstration at the Purchase firehouse when that district hired a paid person who did "other" work and also responded to alarms?

[Guest]

Ladder47,

I have a couple questions about the Nassau County Civil Service Test. Is this test open to all Nassau County Residents or just members of the department that is hiring? How often is this test given? Do they post this exam on the Nassau County Civil Service Website when they give an exam? I would be interested in looking at the announcement. What type of test is it (content on the test). I know Garden City gives the NYS Fire Exam.

In the job description do they mention that you drive fire trucks, fight fires, and do EMS work? I know one department in Nassau County that has 5 maintenance men "aka firefighters". They get paid about $50,000 per year and there was no test. It was a back-door hire. You know commissioner's son, a chief's son-in-law, etc. Why wasn't any test given to them? They clean the trucks, act as maintenance men, clean the firehouse, and respond to all calls. Doesn't that make them firefighters not maintenance men?

[Guest]

They hire these so call janitors to go around the laws, and they know they have a great need to get people on the fire ground, but if they were hired as paid Firefighters they would have to go to school for a mininum of 229 hours plus and then 100 hrs of training every year. [-X

[SEC92 0]

IT MAY NOT BE THE BEST WAY TO GO ABOUT STARTING A FULL TIME PAID DEPARTMENT, BUT AT LEAST THEY REALIZE THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM AND THEY ARE TRYING TO ADDRESS IT.

WE CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. IF THIS WORKS FOR THEM AND IT FILLS A NEED THEN HOPEFULLY AS TIME GOES ON THEY WILL MOVE TO MAKE THEM CAREER FIREFIGHTERS RATHER THAN USING OTHER TITLES. THE NAME OF THE GAME IS PROTECTING THE PUBLIC AND WE ALL HAVE TO BE CREATIVE TO SURVIVE.

[Guest ocff75]

I Know that the Newburgh(Orange Co.) IAFF Local is not happy about the Mechanicstown & Middlehope Janitors.

[TimesUp 148]

So you hire 2 guys tell them to clean the fire house and if an alarm comes in to respond? Sounds like these guys are paid firefighters. But they're not covered as such(207a) in case they get hurt or killed in the line of duty. The Department saw a need to have the firehouse staffed. This makes sense, it will equate into a faster response of the rigs. Thus protecting the public that much better. Nothing wrong with that! So now that you have a need why don't you address it the right way and stop sneaking in guys under other titles to do the job. After all we're talking about protecting life. That should always be your first priority. The only thing wrong here is the round about way some depatments will go to staff their firehouse. Also how some guys are worried about their departments hiring paid firefighters. This is'ent a "paid vs volley" situation.

[Guest]

It's nice to sea they'd rather hire janitors then fireman

[Guest Car2037]

I still say that if it's done with the intent of getting work around the firehouse done, then there's nothing wrong with it. I know of two departments that have Janitor positions that are certainly not tied to responding. One has it's custodial work done at night, and the other is during the day. In both cases the employees are firefighters, and in both cases, they only leave their post if it's something major. They both continue to mop through Automatic Alarms, and keep their respective FD's relatively clean. If there's no requirment in the Job description (real or implied), that they respond to calls, then I don't see who this is hurting. The union can't complain because if this were somehow outlawed, the FD's I referenced wouldn't be going paid, they would just have a dirty FD. The FD has got be cleaned, why not give the job to someone you know, trust, and could use the money? I am not saying that all situations are like the ones I referenced, but for the most part, I can't imagine them being illegal, or slapping the face of the Career Unions.

[Guest]

I have one question. Someone posted that the janitor's fire chief is a career IAFF firefighter in a neighboring town. Is this guy trying to commit career suicide? Who is to say that the mayor of the jurisdiction he works for might say this is a good idea, let's lay off all the real firemen and backfill with janitors. It is cheaper and I don't have to deal with a union.

The janitor concept is a cheap way to ensure daytime manning. Yeah, if you want 2 guys to respond. Also, the department saves bundles in insurance liabilities by having these individuals punch out when they go to a call they fall under the volunteer balloon policy.But is it the Right thing to do ???