PPV....Good, Bad, or UGLY?

[x129K 1,393]

Looking for everyone's opinions, thoughts, and experiences with PPV?

It is fairly popular out by me, and has been for some time...sometimes it is used when it shouldn't be, or in place of horizontal and vertical ventilation, which is obviously a potential hazard.

I REALLY got to thinking about it after seeing the video posted on VentEnterSearch.com....if you havnt seen it - it is REDICULOUS...just amazing...

http://www.vententersearch.com/

So please...let's hear all about PPV!

[FiftyOnePride 100]

Dave Walsh I believe gave a very informative course a few years ago at the Wassaic fire house on PPV.

When done right it can be a real tool, but I have seen it become a real nightmare, like in that video posted on VES (An amazing website by the way). I think in that video they really primarily messed up on the cone of air around the door and they just fed fresh air straight to the fire.

Edited February 9, 2009 by FiftyOnePride

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I particularly like PPV but that is because I came from a department down south that utilized it a lot. Also keep in mind that it is a form of horizontal ventilation. When its used right, it is extremely efficient and comes down to being educated properly in its use and getting experience with it.

As far as using it at the wrong time...depends on who you talk to. There are departments that are down south and out west who have been using this for some time with great success for room and content fires actively while making attack. I can't say that I'm a fan (no pun intended) of this, but I have seen it and it is pretty impressive to watch but I'll leave that tool in their toolbox. Also some get weary of using it after extinguishment because of the fear of "flare up" of any hot spots, but its been my experience and their is literature that also backs this up, that it will for the most part cause embers to glow more but rarely will cause an ignition.

The biggest thing to remember when using it to vent smoke is to get the cone of air to cover as much of the opening as possible, get personnel out of the door...and close as many doors inside the building as you can and open and close them to clear a room or area at a time. You'll be out in half if not shorter then using negative pressure fans. If anyone has seen it, check out the NIST study of PPV they did in regard to use in high rise buildings as well. You can google the topic and find info on PPV and how well it works.

[Fireman488 57]

Elmsford FD uses PPV regularly, but like with any equipment, it must be trained on and used correctly.

This past summer we cleared a medium smoke condition throughout a 3-story office building in a matter of minutes with proper fan placement and proper opening of doors and windows.

We have gas powered and electric PPV fans. My preference is electric, because it's more versatile.

At next year's Lt. Andy Fredericks Seminar, Los Angeles Battalion Chief John Mittendorf will be speaking about PPV ventilation.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Fireman488

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

I agree with ALS & 488 that PPV fans are great for clearing smoke conditions, especially in high rise bldgs. On Saturday at the 3rd alarm on Lexington ave the PPV's were used and worked very well. Im just very leary about introducing them prior to full extinguishment. I now some places use them as an aid to fire attack and it works for them, but Im not sold on this. I think it leaves alot to chance as witnessed in several videos like the one posted. The tests conducted on Govenors Island this year were very informative, and proved that the fans can greatly assist at wind driven fires, but the tests were conducted in fire proof multiple dwellings not 2.5 story frames. There is obviously a huge difference.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

With Allingtown in West Haven, we use it quite regularly. Its a matter of knowing the limitations of your equipment, the construction of the structure, and the fire conditions within. Works damned well to evacuate the smoke.

[antiquefirelt 994]

We've used or attempted to use PPV for many years. Basically we now use it as an after knockdown smoke removal tool. In this regard it has been very successful in clearing large areas and multiple floors of smoke conditions. In our experience, the use of PPV for attack (or PPA) was hindered by many factors: staffing, construction, climate and fear for the victims.

1. Staffing: we never seemed to put enough people on the fireground early enough to task two people to retrieving the fan and getting it going. All "rules" point to ensuring coordination and timing between the nozzle team, the OVM and the "fan turn in FF", all of which we couldn't seem to make work without slowing the first line or search. One could argue that both attack and search could be faster if the time was taken to get the PPV/PPA done right, but then there are other factors as well.

2. Construction: In the far reaches of the Northeast and certainly in my area, most of our older residential construction is balloon frame which is quickly a contraindication if the fire is in the basement or the interior wall covering could be compromised. Most of our jobs seem to be in crappy apartment buildings or dwellings where holes in the plaster or sheetrock are normal. Our EMS crews (firefighters) verify this everyday as they see the conditions in the homes. Most of our downtown is made up of connected 3-4 story frame and ordinary structures that have been breached over the past 150 years. Code stuff is slowly bringing this around, but not being able to define the 6 sides of the fire building is a big contraindication to me!

3. Climate: It seems the places that really have put PPV/PPA to good use have newer construction and the buildings are likely sealed up better. Up this way, we get cold winters and mild summers with just a few real hot days. Consequently, most people do not have central air and utilize their windows for day to day ventilation. Not being able to control the PPV outlet is a contraindication for use. In the winter many residents close off rooms in older houses/buildings to cut down on heating (big this year). So popping a window opposite the attack may not allow the pressurized air an outlet.

4. Fear for the Victims: We still believe in aggressive search and that only the FD can verify "no one is inside". This obviously is tempered by the judgement of the first in IC. This means that if we think there could be people inside and we cannot verify their location, putting a PPV fan in could be pushing the fire toward them.

In the end we studied it, tried it and abandoned PPV for attack, but still use it as "designed", though just for removing smoke after the knock.

Edited February 9, 2009 by antiquefirelt

[Remember585 815]

I would be hesitant to put a fan ( or anything else for that matter ) in the way of the egress of my guys and gals.

In this video, there is obviously a hefty fire load going on and the guys resort to the 1 3/4". In a private house, 1 3/4" is best MOST times, however in this situation I feel it was too small. Other things that caught my attention was the other line on the D-side...if that fire is venting from there don't push it back in on the guys making the interior push. And lastly, where was the backup line for the guys going in the front door. That line on side D should of been backing them up not over on the side of the house.

Reading that smoke on arrival, I would of had someone taking windows around the back. No point in getting the roof, it should vent almost completely horizontally. As far as the PPV goes, I have seen it deployed and have used it myself, but I just don't think pushing fresh air in behind guys before they have darkened it down is a good idea.

Good video, both sites mentioned are great as well.

[IzzyEng4 427]

It is just like using Class A foam or CAFS, you need to train and know when to use it depending on the conditions.

I've seen a lot of departments around here that have both used it successfully and have lost buildings to PPV use. Me personally, I don't think it should be used on an initial attack or when a search is going on, only after the main body of fire is knocked down, which obviously it shouldn't. You have to remember when using PPV it forces more air into the building and what does fire love??? Enough said there. Example, one town had a fire in an old building, they though they all the fire knocked down, put PPV into operation and the whole thing lit up like a candle and they lost the building unfortunately. I believe the outcome during the review, as was passed on to me, was that the PPV was placed into service too early during the course of operations.

We have a lot of tools and tactics that the fire service that are great but the attitude of using it because its the new fangeled thing has to stop and proper training has to be focused on it. PPV is made for horizontal venting so like others have said, no going to the roof. Also all the windows should not be taken out also.

Trust me I'm no authoritarian on it and I need to learn more about using PPV.

[firemoose827 324]

It is just like using Class A foam or CAFS, you need to train and know when to use it depending on the conditions.

I've seen a lot of departments around here that have both used it successfully and have lost buildings to PPV use. Me personally, I don't think it should be used on an initial attack or when a search is going on, only after the main body of fire is knocked down, which obviously it shouldn't. You have to remember when using PPV it forces more air into the building and what does fire love??? Enough said there. Example, one town had a fire in an old building, they though they all the fire knocked down, put PPV into operation and the whole thing lit up like a candle and they lost the building unfortunately. I believe the outcome during the review, as was passed on to me, was that the PPV was placed into service too early during the course of operations.

We have a lot of tools and tactics that the fire service that are great but the attitude of using it because its the new fangeled thing has to stop and proper training has to be focused on it. PPV is made for horizontal venting so like others have said, no going to the roof. Also all the windows should not be taken out also.

Trust me I'm no authoritarian on it and I need to learn more about using PPV.

You said it well Izzy, its a tool in the arsenal of tools. And just like all tools it needs to be trained with aggressively in order for it to work. I know a very knowledgeable chief who has dealt with PPV/PPA throughout his career and now works towards training firefighters in the knowledge of PPV/PPA. Here is a link to his web site that I hope you all find useful, it has some information for classes being taught in your area, or how to set up a training in your area. Hes a great guy and will treat you right.

Kriskas Fire Training

Hope you enjoy it.

[markmets415 524]

Dave Walsh I believe gave a very informative course a few years ago at the Wassaic fire house on PPV.

When done right it can be a real tool, but I have seen it become a real nightmare, like in that video posted on VES (An amazing website by the way). I think in that video they really primarily messed up on the cone of air around the door and they just fed fresh air straight to the fire.

Mr. Walsh will be doing another one in March in Pine Plains