Firefighters - better then or now?

[x129K 1,393]

Do you feel firefighters were better overall say 20-30 yras ago or today, in current time?

Sure...we have alot of technology with gear, tools, equipment, etc....we have fantastic training.....

Back in the day, guys had fire...lots of fire...

So....are we better firemen today?

[FFPCogs 863]

Good topic X,

Personally I often find myself longing for the "good ole days", when men were men, we rode the back step and we still "ate smoke"... .

Truth be told I don't think firemen (ah yes the "old" term) are any better or worse then in times past. What is different is what we know and to an extent, how we apply it. Technology is great and has improved much for us, as has the emphasis on safety. But these can be a double edged swords..more firemen are dying today because as we encapsulate ourselves we cut off vital senses, or we have become so "safe" we don't practice the aggressive tactics of yesteryear. Now I know full well that there have been changes in construction techniques and materials which require a different approach, but there is something to be said for aggressive tactics which when applied...uh well, "aggressively" solve the problem thereby reducing the dangers posed by these "new" factors. Personally I still view firefighting as an inherently dangerous undertaking and as such one in which bad things can happen. That's not to say that we shouldn't be safe, but we must temper that with the realities that this is a dirty, dangerous business and to effectively do it, necessary risks must be taken. I'm sure the pitchforks and torches will come out now, but that's my view.

Cogs

Edited February 9, 2009 by FFPCogs

[x129K 1,393]

That's not to say that we shouldn't be safe, but we must temper that with the realities that this is a dirty, dangerous business and to effectively do it, necessary risks must be taken.

Cogs

That is EXACTLY how I feel....and what ALOT of firefighters, and fire Officers I know are just not getting......Thnak you!

[Guest]

It would be hard to really reply to this topic as I have seen a lot of improvement in the 22 years in the fire service good bad or indifferent should we be looking back to the 50's when most firehouses had one or two trucks???? Or 1909 when there was horses and hose carts??? Yeah we kill too many firefighters every year but when did those stats start and how many were killed in 1919 or 1950 do we really no how accurate the counts were back then?? Better now or then a question that there is no one answer too!!!!

[x129K 1,393]

Not only that Joe - but how many firefighters from days gone by died of the long term effects of not having SCBA years after they answered their last real alarm? I wonder if they kept track of those records? I seriously doubt it.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

I think the firefighters are better now because we have EMT BRAVO to talk about it, and not just rocks and a stick!

[OLDGUY19 6]

Sometimes Rocks and Sticks work better than than the techno stuff. But we are better off today than 20 or 30 years ago.

[moggie6 54]

Firefighters-better then or now? Interesting topic. I'm going to say that with new technology, training, equipment, ect we have a better firefighter. The question of this topic is wrong though. Maybe we should ask this.

Firefighters- Attitudes better then or now?

[x129K 1,393]

Firefighters-better then or now? Interesting topic. I'm going to say that with new technology, training, equipment, ect we have a better firefighter. The question of this topic is wrong though. Maybe we should ask this.

Firefighters- Attitudes better then or now?

I dont care about attitudes....I was just posing a question.

Funny how the majority is going with today's firemen...and I agree. But how much merit is there in running 2-3 workers a shift, or a dozen a month....experience is a HUGE advantage in the fire service...

Today - you can make Chief of Deparmtnet in ALOT of towns with little to no REAL fire experience...

[ex-commish 490]

Firefighters-better then or now? Interesting topic. I'm going to say that with new technology, training, equipment, ect we have a better firefighter. The question of this topic is wrong though. Maybe we should ask this.

Firefighters- Attitudes better then or now?

While the technology and training is better than 20 years ago I have seen a shift in attitude. There was a time when you joined a department and you thrived to be accepted and you did so by keeping your mouth shut and did what you were told. You would never dream of answering back to a senior member. You didnt have to be told to pack hose or clean tools. You just did it. You didnt join for the perks. A simple thank you was enough. There was a also sense of brotherhood and any issue was handled in house and wasn't leaked to the media or another department. We handled our own.

What happened???

Edited February 9, 2009 by HFD219

[moggie6 54]

I dont care about attitudes....I was just posing a question.

Funny how the majority is going with today's firemen...and I agree. But how much merit is there in running 2-3 workers a shift, or a dozen a month....experience is a HUGE advantage in the fire service...

Today - you can make Chief of Deparmtnet in ALOT of towns with little to no REAL fire experience...

But wouldn't you say that attitude makes a difference when it comes to the firefighter? I can have the best of everything, equipment, training, funding, manning, you name it, but without a proper attitude none of this means anything. Wouldn't you agree?

[fdny2817 6]

Firefighters-better then or now? Interesting topic. I'm going to say that with new technology, training, equipment, ect we have a better firefighter. The question of this topic is wrong though. Maybe we should ask this.

Firefighters- Attitudes better then or now?

I agree, I think todays firefighters relay to much on SAFETY equipment and not thier gut feeling. I think we use to have to think alot more than today, the new kids joining the ranks have to bed spoon feed, our they will overload.

I don't care what fantasy tools you have " nothing can replace experience "

[x129K 1,393]

But wouldn't you say that attitude makes a difference when it comes to the firefighter? I can have the best of everything, equipment, training, funding, manning, you name it, but without a proper attitude none of this means anything. Wouldn't you agree?

Looking at attitude in terms presented by HFD above - yeas, absolutely 100 percent...I didnt think of it that way when you replied initially...

I agree, I think todays firefighters relay to much on SAFETY equipment and not thier gut feeling. I think we use to have to think alot more than today, the new kids joining the ranks have to bed spoon feed, our they will overload.

I don't care what fantasy tools you have " nothing can replace experience "

And how do we get that "gut feeling" without the experience? I don't think you can.

[FFPCogs 863]

Experience far and away is the best teacher in firefighting, but it is not the fault of "newer" members that the number of fires are down. I think that yes firemen of yesteryear were more experienced in the nuts and bolts of the job simply because they saw more fire, but they did so without the benefit of some of the technological advantages we take for granted today.

Attitudes have also changed considerably over the years, for a variety of reasons, and that in and of itself does impact the fire service in what many (including me) consider a negative way. But that is the world we live in. People now expect instant gratification, and generally speaking are not willing to "endure" some of the "hardships" which were a normal part of coming up in a department years ago. There is no real fix for that, it is what it is, so it is incumbent on fire service leaders to accept and work with that fact to produce "good" firemen.

Another aspect of all this is the fact that in many cases the traditional backgrounds of many newer firemen no longer exist. Most younger people have grown up in the computer age, so the basic skills many of us learned prior to joining or while still new aren't there. The fire service of today wants college graduates not carpenters, mechanics, iron workers and plumbers ect. I mean you can't even find those classes in high school anymore, everything has been reduced to silicon chips and keyboards. Unfortunately while a computer may help you learn this job it can't do it for you (at least yet thank God). Another downside of this (at least to me) is that our rigs and equipment while technologically more advanced, are also computerized to the point where they almost don't need us, and are far more likely to breakdown. I don't know about anyone else but I'm still wary of a computer chip deciding if I get water or not, or if my aerial will operate. But again that is the world of today.

Firemen of today are as only as good as the "elder" statesmen of their departments have made them, and that has always been so.

Cogs

[firefighter35 0]

Nothing for nothing but when I joined the fire service over 15 years ago, you had to be accepted by your peers and earn their respect. You knew when to show up for training, you didn't have to make phone calls and send e-mails out to try and educate and train members. Today's firefighters want the respect of everyone but they need special invites to come out. Just listen to the radio, departments don't get off the floor because of that "solar pager" because its not an interesting enough call.

[abaduck 123]

At the risk of proving some career vs. vollie comments (which I do NOT want to do; those who know me know I have deep respect for both) perhaps it might be helpful to break out this topic into 'career FFs' and 'vollie FFs'. Speaking as a vollie, from what I've heard (and I'm still pretty new to the fire service) I think there has been a change in attitude (at least in the more forward-thinking departments); with no disrespect to those who have gone before, the 'vibe' I'm picking up is that we're more proficient and professional these days. I know I take what I do very seriously, and I think that goes for most of the rest of us.. but yes, we're less experienced too; we don't perhaps get the number of working fires of years gone by. Although this last year has made me wonder about that...!

I'd also like to chip in one of my favorite sayings: "Good judgment is the result of experience; 'experience' is the result of bad judgment!"

[NWFDMedic 58]

Well in real terms, a firefighter's job is to prevent the loss of life and property. I started in the volunteer fire service in 1990 and back then we had fires, and lots of them. I was inside my first fire on my second call and got a 30 second in-service on an SCBA on the way from the firehouse to the call. Today we have a lot more regulation and technology in the fire service. Our training is better but unfortunately there has been a tradeoff in experience because we have done our job too well in the prevention category. There is no substitue for experience and "knowing" a fire, which is why it's really great to have a combination of trained firefighters and experience firefighters (and hopefully ones with both) in the ranks.

There have been a lot of improvements to make the preservation of life and property more effective. In fact, coming up in 2010, I believe, all residential new construction will be required to have sprinklers. That will be the next step in preserving life and property and probably an increase in our call volume of false alarms.

In all, I wouldn't say the men and women in the fire service are any better or worse than 20-30 years ago, but instead uniquely different. What is for certain is that the job of preserving life and property is getting done better and for that we should all be grateful and proud.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Experience is an important educational tool, but only if you have proper and effective supervision to guide the firefighter with the "experience." I wouldn't necessarily call it the best, as I'm a firm believer that solid basic training and continuous training is the best educational tool coupled with proper mentoring in the field. Keep in mind experience can be both good and bad in nature.

Good point NWFD. Many people lose scope at the fact that the primary function of the FD is prevention.

As far as who is better. To me its neither. And in terms of how I view the fire service that is the best and only appropriate answer.

You can talk about better training, standards, regulations, scientific input, innovation, technology, etc. But what it really comes down to is whether you are in the fire service today. In 1990, 1980, 1970, 1960, or 1900 you should strive to be the best you can be for that era. This is the same difficult concept that is discussed today even in sports. Maybe Babe Ruth would hit 100 HR's a year today with the bats, better balls, but maybe he would hit 10 with today's pitching...with the relief pitching being as it is and the various pitches used today. I don't care if someone thinks my dad was a better firefighter then me 25 years ago, all I want to know is that he was a solid efficient firefighter then and I want to be the same. The gear doesn't make me, the camera's, etc. The training I have and how I use it in comparision to how I operate today is. Just the same for him with heavier SCBA's that weren't as reliable or even trusted as today, 3/4 boots, less hydrocarbons burning, etc. Tactics and equipment change with evolution. Be the best you can be today, just as the brothers and sisters did 25 years ago. Their lives depended on it then...and yours does now. Always strive to learn something new every single day!

[IzzyEng4 427]

This is a hard question for me to really think of giving a definitive answer. It’s like comparing apples and oranges but just like everyone has said basically if it wasn't for the past we would have not progressed into the future.

I was privileged grow up around and become part of the fire service when things were changing. For example, when I became a vollie, one of the first things I was taught was how to put on a Scott 2A, the second was to take the old elephant trunk and shove it down your coat incase you ran out of air when you were trying to get out of a building. Obviously looking back at it today that was a two-fold practice. On one hand it was plain crazy to do but it could save your life (so to speak) but on the other hand it was "innovative" as it was something to do in case you got into that position and to get yourself out. Firefighters are thinking more instead of just doing something because a book says so.

For the longest time I think new firefighters got spoon-feed information from the IFSTA and other manuals out there and the teaching perception was "this is how it should be done". I was always taught that these instructions were the "Point A" and you needed to think of "Points B, C, D, ect." because everything was different. Plus you have to throw in the attitude and dedication factor with this. But also, I believe that there is a shift back in attitude and more career and volunteers are more dedicated than ever than just taking it as a job or for the glory just like the firemen of years before. Just like our innovative forefathers we are starting to think once again out side of the box.

[x129K 1,393]

Awesome post ALS. Thank you!

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Interesting topic. Cogs your first post was right on the money and sums up my feelings about alot of the fire service. This is a blue collar business that needs blue collar workers with the skills and attitude to match. We get guys that cant start a saw because they never started a lawn mower, but they can disect a computer. Too much emphasis on safety can be a bad thing. The job is becoming so bogged down with rules and regulations that we cant perform what needs to be done to save life and property. Good training is very important but it has to based an solid experience. If the people doing the training havent done it on the fireground and figured out what works and what doesnt then what good is it. Leadership also has to be experiened. Many of todays cheifs have little or no practical experience, they just evolve through attrition within a dept. How can you expect sound leadership and decision making from a guy whos never been there himself.

[FFPCogs 863]

How can you expect sound leadership and decision making from a guy whos never been there himself.

Talk about right on the money, it can't be any simpler than that. Amen PJ.

Glad to see I'm not the only dinosaur left.

Cogs

[firecapt32 282]

great post-- Interesting comments-- I hate to follow ALS he has such a way with words!! "back in the day" you learned the job from the older men in the department, there was very little formal training. You worried about your own communnity-- we acted "localy not globley" Depatments were much more "centered" in the community. The Fire Chief was elected by a popular vote not by experience or he was elected because it was "his turn".

Today we elect beacuse of training- education-dediciation- (hopfully) We act in a more globle fasion. We have training centrer where we can learn and practice our skill. Our equipment is much more superior.

Although we still maybe community centered the fire service is much more intertwinted with the computer age. Facts, figures , trends , new equipment all play a part in todays fire service, as well as the hands on training.

So simply put we have moved with the age--foward thank goodness better?? I hope so