H.U.D WINDOWS

[robert benz 344]

I am looking for some input on tried and proven methods for defeating H.U.D. windows. I have read all i want to read on the subject. personal experience would be helpful now thanks

[JFLYNN 681]

I am looking for some input on tried and proven methods for defeating H.U.D. windows. I have read all i want to read on the subject. personal experience would be helpful now thanks

Bob, this is a good question since we will all be seeing a lot more HUD windows and doors in the next few years as a result of the housing crisis.

I could write a lot about this but since you already know what a HUD window is and have read about standard forcible entry I will just tell you what works.

There are several methods which work, but the easiest is to use a cutoff saw (K-12) or chain saw to make 3 plunge cuts, forming a triangle, through the 2x4 and plywood, surrounding the head of the bolt. Push the cut triangle (bolt and 2x4) back into the building. This will release the 2X4 which is on the interior holding (pulling) the plywood onto the opening. Start with the bottom bolts so that when you do the top bolts the plywood won't swing down violently. Oftentimes, the plywood is also pinned (screwed or nailed) to the siding so after the carriage bolts and 2x4 system are defeated, the plywood will still need to be pried off. If there are too many nails and /or screws to easily pry off the plywood, cut the window opening out of the plywood after removing the carriage bolt and 2x4 system.

Other methods which work but not normally as well are shaving off the heads of the bolts with a metal blade and then popping the bolt through the plywood with the point of a halligan, or using halligan and flathead to cut the head of the bolt off and drive the remaining bolt through the plywood.

[JohnnyOV 2]

For those of us who do not know what a HUD window is, could someone please elaborate?

[x129K 1,393]

Or any good source to go to research them? A primary search of Google and Firehouse.com was negative.

[Guest Firediver]

This is the best I can do. go to this link and start on pg 160.

Housing and Urban Development. (H.U.D.)

www.vententersearch.com/supplemental/fdny_fe.pdf

After you read it you will better understand what DC Flynn was talking about.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Firediver

[JFLYNN 681]

For those of us who do not know what a HUD window is, could someone please elaborate?

Try sites for Department of Housing and Urban Development (H.U.D.), FEMA, or National Fire Academy and look for info. on securing vacant buildings- there are fancy diagrams and instructions out there somewhere...

Edited February 5, 2009 by Chris192

[robert benz 344]

Bob, this is a good question since we will all be seeing a lot more HUD windows and doors in the next few years as a result of the housing crisis.

I could write a lot about this but since you already know what a HUD window is and have read about standard forcible entry I will just tell you what works.

There are several methods which work, but the easiest is to use a cutoff saw (K-12) or chain saw to make 3 plunge cuts, forming a triangle, through the 2x4 and plywood, surrounding the head of the bolt. Push the cut triangle (bolt and 2x4) back into the building. This will release the 2X4 which is on the interior holding (pulling) the plywood onto the opening. Start with the bottom bolts so that when you do the top bolts the plywood won't swing down violently. Oftentimes, the plywood is also pinned (screwed or nailed) to the siding so after the carriage bolts and 2x4 system are defeated, the plywood will still need to be pried off. If there are too many nails and /or screws to easily pry off the plywood, cut the window opening out of the plywood after removing the carriage bolt and 2x4 system.

Other methods which work but not normally as well are shaving off the heads of the bolts with a metal blade and then popping the bolt through the plywood with the point of a halligan, or using halligan and flathead to cut the head of the bolt off and drive the remaining bolt through the plywood.

Thanks John, that is the help I am looking for.

[robert benz 344]

For those of us who do not know what a HUD window is, could someone please elaborate?

hope the pic is visible. HUD window window covered by plywood (or other material) held in place by 2 2 by 4's on the outside connected by bolts to 2 2 by4's on the inside. the inside 2/4's are longer or wider than the window making a basic window sandwich

[KC2OBW 1]

What is there purpose, are they anti break in devices? or just more so for un-occupied buildings?

[ny10570 745]

HUD windows became a common sight in urban areas during the 70's and 80's. They were initially installed by the Dept of Housing and Urban Development to secure vacant properties. They were copied and spread in their popularity. In their simplest form it is a sheet of plywood on the front of the opening with 2x4's across the front. Carriage bolts are run through the front 2x4 and plywood back to another set of 2x4's inside the structure. You can pry away at the plywood all day long, but unless you want to remove it in first size chunks you have to remove the 2x4's. Thats where the plunge cuts around the carriage bolts or cutting the bolt heads off comes to play.

As with everything the world creates to hamper firefighters HUD windows have been improved upon...

http://www.vacantpropertysecurity.com/

For anyone with a firehouse.com sub, here's how to handle the VPS guards...

http://cms.firehouse.com/print/Firefightin...ms/14$2807

Edited February 4, 2009 by ny10570

[KC2OBW 1]

Idk if this is going off topic, but if so I apologize, Now what about windows with bars, those I think would be easier to cut through, but do they pose a greater problem them HUD windows/doors?

[JFLYNN 681]

hope the pic is visible. HUD window window covered by plywood (or other material) held in place by 2 2 by 4's on the outside connected by bolts to 2 2 by4's on the inside. the inside 2/4's are longer or wider than the window making a basic window sandwich

Nice pic Bob...reminded me that I forgot to mention that for properly done HUD doors, there will be 3 sets of 2x4's. Also on doors, they screw an additional 2x4 to the threshold butting against the inside of the plywood so the 1/2" plywood can't just be kicked in and crawled under. Also, sometimes they don't put the 2x4's on the outside (you will just see sets of bolt heads) but they are always on the inside.

The carriage bolt is normally a 3/8" bolt which is 12" long (coarse thread).

...I thought of a funny joke (at least to me) but too many of you guys just can't seem to qtip and I don't feel like torturing you right now...

[robert benz 344]

Nice pic Bob...reminded me that I forgot to mention that for properly done HUD doors, there will be 3 sets of 2x4's. Also on doors, they screw an additional 2x4 to the threshold butting against the inside of the plywood so the 1/2" plywood can't just be kicked in and crawled under. Also, sometimes they don't put the 2x4's on the outside (you will just see sets of bolt heads) but they are always on the inside.

The carriage bolt is normally a 3/8" bolt which is 12" long (coarse thread).

...I thought of a funny joke (at least to me) but too many of you guys just can't seem to qtip and I don't feel like torturing you right now...

thanks again John, We just found one with the 2x4's going vertical instead of horizontal, not that it makes a big difference.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Bobby:

Thanks for posting the topic. It is something I've seen several times and had read about in both FE and VES.com but haven't had to deal with. But its definately worth reviewing again.

John:

Thanks for posting your insight as well.

[tdc202 0]

I agree with ALS. i think this a great topic and while never coming across it personally it's definotely something to remember espically with the economy in the toilet and more foreclosures daily.

[abaduck 123]

This is the best I can do. go to this link and start on pg 160.

Housing and Urban Development. (H.U.D.)

www.vententersearch.com/supplemental/fdny_fe.pdf

After you read it you will better understand what DC Flynn was talking about.

Great link thanks, I hadn't seen that before.

I hadn't seen these H.U.D windows before either, but to me... KISS. It has 2x4s and plywood. It looks a bit like a roof, treat it like one - chainsaw. Worry about getting fancy if the saw won't start, or is needed elsewhere.

Can I drift the topic slightly? Once upon a time I saw some *great* FDNY forcible entry training videos. But I was told they weren't even allowed to leave the building, far less give out copies or share them online. I got the impression that, technically, I shouldn't even have been allowed to watch them. Anyone know why FDNY have this strict policy? There was nothing 'secret' about them, it was just conventional FE, done very professionally, and it would be good to share...

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Good Topic,

Be prepared to see more and more of the VPS doors & windows in your response areas, a much different animal than the traditional HUD window. As mentioned saws work great on the HUD's as long as they can be safely accessed. Consider working on them from a tower ladder bucket. Very difficult to force them from a portable ladder use caution. They can be forced with the halligan by splitting the outer 2x4 & driving the pike through the plywood in the area of the bolt head thus expanding the hole. I will try to get some photos of HUD's and VPS next time Im at work.

Paul

[robert benz 344]

Good Topic,

Be prepared to see more and more of the VPS doors & windows in your response areas, a much different animal than the traditional HUD window. As mentioned saws work great on the HUD's as long as they can be safely accessed. Consider working on them from a tower ladder bucket. Very difficult to force them from a portable ladder use caution. They can be forced with the halligan by splitting the outer 2x4 & driving the pike through the plywood in the area of the bolt head thus expanding the hole. I will try to get some photos of HUD's and VPS next time Im at work.

Paul

couple of pics of VPS covered windows

[Guest FFNick]

All very good suggestions on how to defeat HUD style defenses. Always remember to keep an open mind and don't get stuck thinking that one way is the only way.

Here is a link to some of the stuff we have run into in our area. A good collection of photos by one of our Rescue members. Also good pics on the inside of the VPS system.

Firegroundimages.com HUD and VPS pictures

Edited February 5, 2009 by FFNick

[x129K 1,393]

All very good suggestions on how to defeat HUD style defenses. Always remember to keep an open mind and don't get stuck thinking that one way is the only way.

Here is a link to some of the stuff we have run into in our area. A good collection of photos by one of our Rescue members. Also good pics on the inside of the VPS system.

Firegroundimages.com HUD and VPS pictures

Paul - On HUD windows - have you had any luck smashing the heads of the carraige bolts through the plywood after you defeat the outer 2x?

EXCELLENT pictures - they really show/explain exactly what the guys here are referring too - thanks for sharing.

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Nick,

I was just about to get to that. Many of our HUD's dont have the outer 2x4 (traditional HUD). So what you are faced with is the plywood and the carriage bolt heads. Smashing the bolt heads with a 10lb sledge has proved effective. Also using the forcible entry saw is a very good option. Start at a 45 degree angle a couple of inches back from the bolt head. Cut into the plywood on this angle and you will sever the threaded rod thus disabling the connection with the plywood. The quickest and most effcient method would be to plunge the chain saw in the middle of the plywood from top to bottom severing both 2x4's in half. This has posed some issues when members are operating inside the bldg in close proximity to the cutting operation and is therefore not a favorable method among our command staff at this time.

[Guest FFNick]

Nick,

I was just about to get to that. Many of our HUD's dont have the outer 2x4 (traditional HUD). So what you are faced with is the plywood and the carriage bolt heads. Smashing the bolt heads with a 10lb sledge has proved effective. Also using the forcible entry saw is a very good option. Start at a 45 degree angle a couple of inches back from the bolt head. Cut into the plywood on this angle and you will sever the threaded rod thus disabling the connection with the plywood. The quickest and most effcient method would be to plunge the chain saw in the middle of the plywood from top to bottom severing both 2x4's in half. This has posed some issues when members are operating inside the bldg in close proximity to the cutting operation and is therefore not a favorable method among our command staff at this time.

We have found the same - many with no outer 2x4, so smashing the head seems to work pretty well in those situations. We have also found that when plunging the chain saw thru the plywood, our particular chain saw bars may be too short in some circumstances. We have seen on lath & plaster walls, when the interior decorative trim is still around the window, the inner 2x4 sits too far in for our saws to cut. Also, sometimes if they have the old add-on type aluminum storm windows in place, that can screw up your saw if you are not careful - the cross members of the sashes can do a number on your chain.

[JFLYNN 681]

Nick,

I was just about to get to that. Many of our HUD's dont have the outer 2x4 (traditional HUD). So what you are faced with is the plywood and the carriage bolt heads. Smashing the bolt heads with a 10lb sledge has proved effective. Also using the forcible entry saw is a very good option. Start at a 45 degree angle a couple of inches back from the bolt head. Cut into the plywood on this angle and you will sever the threaded rod thus disabling the connection with the plywood. The quickest and most effcient method would be to plunge the chain saw in the middle of the plywood from top to bottom severing both 2x4's in half. This has posed some issues when members are operating inside the bldg in close proximity to the cutting operation and is therefore not a favorable method among our command staff at this time.

I'm surprised that the method you describe- "plunging the chain saw in the middle of the plywood from top to bottom severing both 2x4's in half " works for you...we have found that even if you are able to reach the inner 2x4, which you normally aren't, the system will not usually not be defeated this way- the plywood will still be pulled into the building by the bolt system.

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

The majority of window frames Ive encounteed are somewhere in the range of 8-12 inches at most so the chain saw can easily sever the inner 2x4. Once the 2x4 is cut in half it is free to spin out of the inner window frame, thus the plywood can be manipulated in or out of the window.

[x129K 1,393]

There is a 15 minute video on VentEnterSearch.com about this very subject - VERY informative.

Thanks for bringing this topic up - I learned quite a bit.

http://www.vententersearch.com/

Edited February 9, 2009 by x129K

[JM15 386]

Awesome topic, very informative. I just found a forcible entry guide on my computer put out by FDNY. I have no idea where I got it but it is awesome. It is called FDNY Forcible Entry Bible. It has step by step instructions, tips, tricks, hints with pictures. Definitely a recommended read.

FDNY Forcible Entry Bible

Edited February 9, 2009 by JM15