Front Warning Lights On Apparatus

[x635 4,066]

I have always wondered why so many departments don't have more visual warning on the front of their apparatus. Often times, you can only see the two standard flashers in your rear view mirror, and the lightbar is often not visible or obscured.

Take seeing this in your rearview mirror (I'm not picking on anyone, just an EXAMPLE)

vs. seeing this:

Why is this?

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Sadly, I have found that no matter HOW MANY lights and sirens you mount on the front of apparatus, people are ignorant, or just plain don't care these days!

That, AND there comes a point when it becomes overkill, just IMHO.

[KC2OBW 1]

Sadly, I have found that no matter HOW MANY lights and sirens you mount on the front of apparatus, people are ignorant, or just plain don't care these days!

That, AND there comes a point when it becomes overkill, just IMHO.

You are right,every one these days thinks what ever they are doing is much more important then a Fire engine or a Ambulance going code down the road trying to help people. Regardless of what color light, Red,blue,green I pull to the right, the way I look at it is hey they could be going to my house, or going to a loved ones or a friends home/business.

Edited January 28, 2009 by KC2OBW

[x635 4,066]

Sadly, I have found that no matter HOW MANY lights and sirens you mount on the front of apparatus, people are ignorant, or just plain don't care these days!

That, AND there comes a point when it becomes overkill, just IMHO.

Actually, I've noticed a difference on several occasions. When I worked for WEMS on 45-M-1, and we were using a 4010, a 1999 Ford Expedition/Odyssey with a rotator/halogen package with no grill lights or wig-wags that was further weakend by the altenator, not a lot of people pulled over right away. The day I put the new 4016 in service, a 2005 Ford/Specialty Warning Systems with an LED lighting package, I noticed an immediate and significant difference in the amount of people who pulled over to the side sooner. I've had the same experience when I recently switched from an ambulance with a halogen lighting package into a brand new one with an LED package.

Granted, I've driven fire apparatus and ambulances for over 12 years now, and I know some people will hardly pull over, but I feel there is and should be a medium between "not enough" and "too much", and I wonder why the NFPA hasn't required more warning in this zone in the past.

Also, I feel that reflective chevrons on the front bumper help tremendously as well.

[Goose 188]

Biggest problem with LED warning lights is they get drowned out in bright sunny conditions. Seems to me that a combination of LEDs, Rotators and Strobes are your best bet. But, like others have said, you can put 50 grand in lights on your truck and it wouldn't make a damn difference. Just make sure you use everything - lights, siren, defensive driving and due regard.

[x635 4,066]

Biggest problem with LED warning lights is they get drowned out in bright sunny conditions.

Umm, not from what I've seen, and I'm looking at LED with the sun setting from the West right now. But I do agree with you on the rest.

Also, I must add that some LED's need a "night" mode, so you don't blind motorists instead of warning them.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I believe that a better combination of lights is required to move traffic effectively. My first due engine has strobes, LEDs and rotators up front and I can honestly say with those lights, plus the Q I have never encountered a vehicle that has not moved out of our way when they could.

And yes, better all around warning is required for the modern fire service IMHO. But while there are those who invest more in lights for their apparatus than they do in firefighter training and safety.

[x648eng119 2]

Biggest problem with LED warning lights is they get drowned out in bright sunny conditions. Seems to me that a combination of LEDs, Rotators and Strobes are your best bet. But, like others have said, you can put 50 grand in lights on your truck and it wouldn't make a damn difference. Just make sure you use everything - lights, siren, defensive driving and due regard.

I couldn't agree more...

Down in Mamaroneck EMS, our older ambulance has an MX7000 bar (rotators), Strobes on the grille, and headlight flashers. Our newer one has an LED bar with outboard strobes, LEDs just below the headlights, and hideaway strobes in the front turn signals. I usually find that people move over sooner for the OLDER ambulance with the different types of lights... I also think the most effective thing on the older ambulance is the headlight flashers. Those make a big difference.

[x635 4,066]

Austin-Travis County EMS with Tomar LED's in "Park" mode. Taken in bright sunlight, however my digital camera subdued it some.

[Remember585 815]

Two cases I remember where all LED light packages were diminished to the point of disappearing in the sun come to mind.

A few weeks back, our Paramedic unit was coming up Route 9, and I was heading south. The car - with all LEDs - crested the hill and the sun was on it - all of the lights disappeared from view until it got out of the sun.

The other time I recall was also on Route 9. I was coming home from work, and a police unit with all LEDs had a vehicle pulled over. The sun was right on the car, and the only lights you could see were the strobes in the reverse lights.

Personally, I am still not sold on doing a 100% LED warning light package.

[KC2OBW 1]

Over at New Paltz the newer rig 621 has nothing but LED warning lights on it, and as for the led's washing out, town of pok police have nothing but led bar lights and some cars have either rear deck strobe lights but the newer cars have led rear deck lights, and strobes in tail,reverse, and turn signals, and two halogen flashers in the grille, i have noticed in direct sun light the led bars are not really that visible.

[Goose 188]

Austin-Travis County EMS with Tomar LED's in "Park" mode. Taken in bright sunlight, however my digital camera subdued it some.

That looks pretty drowned out to me....they appear more or less white. Either way, im not in the business of ordering ambulances so i work with what i'm assigned. But, like i said earlier, i think a combination of LED, strobes and rotators are the most effective warning light combination for all weather/times of day.

Edited January 29, 2009 by Goose

[x648eng119 2]

I think a lot of it also has to do with the flash patterns of the LEDs. Seth, in your video of the ambulance, everything on the right side alternating with everything on the left side might not be as effective as something like alternating the first, third and fifth with the second, fourth and sixth lightheads...

Not sure if it's ever been studied or not, but something that might work a little better.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I think a lot of it also has to do with the flash patterns of the LEDs. Seth, in your video of the ambulance, everything on the right side alternating with everything on the left side might not be as effective as something like alternating the first, third and fifth with the second, fourth and sixth lightheads...

Not sure if it's ever been studied or not, but something that might work a little better.

I have always thought/wondered that myself...

Are there any studies out there that detail the effectiveness of a certain flash pattern over another?

[IzzyEng4 427]

Some departments put too many lights on the front of their rigs and the way they flash reminds me of every Anime film made, then go into seizures. There have been legit studies about warning lights and the way some manufacturers offer flash patters its easy to blind someone. LEDs and strobes are the basis of this problem and the eye is only capable of sending so much information to the brain to be translated. More added lights to a rig can cause confusion when your eyes pick them up and basically "turn off the brain".

[JetPhoto 626]

The problem with lights is not only during the daylight hurs but can also be to bright at night time blinding on coming vehicles. Until they develop a car that automaticly pulls over when an emergency vehicle approches, we will constintly have the battle of too much or too little

[ny10570 745]

The lighting studies are difficult because there's two separate problems. The first is the ability to physically see and recognize the light. This is where the studies supporting blue lights on the back of PD vehicles. Even though red is a longer wavelength and less prone to scatter, the decreased ability of the eye to see it is a much bigger factor. Its why as you pull up to that cruiser on the side of the road the blue lights seem so much brighter.

The second problem is perceiving the light. If drivers checked their mirrors as they're suppose to not much more than the old gumball light would be enough. Other than flashing, nothing that I'm aware of makes a significant difference in perception. Different patterns are touted as being more effective but I haven't seen any independent research to back it up. Ignoring environmental factors LEDs and strobes are most effective because their flash is crisper and brighter than incandescent.

The biggest effect lights have is on behavior. Yellow lights are common and scene as uninteresting. Red lights are associated with danger and emergency vehicles. People actually pump adrenaline into their system when they see red lights. We're no different than Pavlov's dogs. Then there's the rubber necking. People want to see what is going on so their eyes and attention divert to the scene.

Sound is the other part of the equation and is much better studied. But thats for another thread.

Edited January 29, 2009 by ny10570

[Raz 14]

Red light is a longer wavelength therefore doesn't travel as far.

I agree with everything you said, but that sentence is just not true.

[x129K 1,393]

Noise...it's all about making noise....

[xchief2x 79]

you can put all the lights and sirens you want on an emergency vehicle, it doesn't matter. People just don't pay any attention to anything anymore plus the newer vehicles on the road are much more quiter inside and the radios are louder. It is still the emergecny vehicle opertors responsibility to get the vehicle and crew to the scene and back safely. You must always expect the unexpected from the other drivers that we share the road with.

[FFLieu 70]

you can put all the lights and sirens you want on an emergency vehicle, it doesn't matter. People just don't pay any attention to anything anymore plus the newer vehicles on the road are much more quiter inside and the radios are louder. It is still the emergecny vehicle opertors responsibility to get the vehicle and crew to the scene and back safely. You must always expect the unexpected from the other drivers that we share the road with.

Exactly. My attitude is that it doesn't matter how many lights you have or what kind of lights you have; there is always at least one car per job that does not yield, either because they can't see, can't hear, or are just plain stupid. And as we all know, you can't fix stupid...

[TCD0415 26]

Noise...it's all about making noise....

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[x129K 1,393]

QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

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[ny10570 745]

I agree with everything you said, but that sentence is just not true.

Wow, thank you Raz. Up for 48hrs didn't work so well. Its suppose to read, even though red is a longer wavelength and less prone to scatter, the decreased ability of the eye to see it is a much bigger factor. Its why as you pull up to that cruiser on the side of the road the blue lights seem so much brighter.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Red has the longest wavelength, lowest energy and lowest frequency at measured value of between 675-750 nanometers while blue has a much higher energy, higher frequency and shorter wave length at between 510 to 430 nanometers.

What this means is that one sees blue much quicker because it travels faster with more cycles per second than red, at a greater energy. In addition, it has been noted many times that the human eye sees the color green the best (meaning there are the most defined shades of green), the color blue is closer to the color green on the electromagnetic spectrum.

All this information is based off of the assumption that the equation C(speed of light in meters per second)=V(frequency in hertz)/Lambda(wavelength in meters) is how one determines wavelenght.

Edited January 29, 2009 by bvfdjc316

[EFFD4091-MLSS emt 13]

Well IMHO I think the other half of the red v blue is that there is so much other red lighting on the road from stop lights to taillights. Blue does not blend but actually stands out over the red of the taillights and and stop lights. And I can agree on the blend of lights as being effective, When I had my POV all "decked/buffed" out I had blue LED's, a dual talon dash light and 4 TIR 3's in the grille and blue Strobes in the headlight housing (the rear had 2 red 2 yellow strobes.) (it was 6 strobe 90 watt pack.) The flash pattern I chose as INMO was the most effective was the 3-3-1-1-1-1. I did find that more people moved out of the way.

Has anyone heard about the "subwoofer" sirens they are using now? Does/has anyone seen, heard, or used this. Yea I know it prob has its own thread but being that we are here talking bout front warning, figured I'd ask.

P.S. Who thinks that P.D., Amb and Fire should be allowed to run forward facing blue and red combo, therefor allowing the visibility to the front to be much greater. Since it has been proven that blue is more in certain conditions. Meanwhile red can be in others. From my experience the 2nd gen (darker/brighter) blue is harder to drown out in Sunlight.

oh and I was really bored sitting in Highland, hence the coloring of words.... but let your eyes become unfocused and see what color stands out...

Edited January 29, 2009 by EFFD4091-MLSS emt

[Patch6713 18]

Carmel's 31-7-1 - fourth picture down

Here is a good example of LEDs getting drowned out. You can hardly see any of the lights, and the ones you can aren't bright and look almost white.

Edited January 29, 2009 by Patch6713

[x648eng119 2]

While I'm not disagreeing that the sun doesn't drown out LEDs, it is a little hard to tell off of a still picture. With the variation of intensity in some of the different flash patterns, you may or may not be catching it at full illumination.

[JRS2817 1]

All I have to say it's a shame, that people don't move for any color flashing lights and roaring Q's. But I do agree firetrucks should have the combo colors and sirens (Q) and with the LEDS x648eng119 is right the different flash patterns help

[Guest alsfirefighter]

You are right,every one these days thinks what ever they are doing is much more important then a Fire engine or a Ambulance going code down the road trying to help people.

That's because unfortunately most of the time statistically they probably are. We over utilize lights and sirens big time.

To me nothing gets attention more and from a distance then alternating headlights. Sure a couple of grill lights help of strobe or LED's...but they catch your attention more IMO then anything else. Its about patience and getting drivers to know what you want of them and then for them to yield the right of way.