Rear Facing Red lights

[SgtGumby311 0]

Talk about beating a dead horse.......enough about the lights already.

[FFLieu 70]

OK, this is my take on the issue. Whatever the law says regarding what colors are acceptable and what placement is acceptable on a police vehicle is a moot point. That is to be determined by the Chief of Police. In the instant issue, the question was raised about what color is acceptable on a personally owned vehicle, specifically what the law allows in a rear-facing situation. I will agree that it appears that Section 375 of the VTL looks as if it were written by the guy who graduated last in his law school class, as it is very convoluted and ambiguous, however, we must all follow the letter of the law. As the first sentence states, "One or more red or combination red and white lights, or one white light which must be a revolving, rotating, flashing, oscillating or constantly moving light, may be affixed to an authorized emergency vehicle..." This, to me, means a police car, ambulance, or fire truck. So, that being said, my interpretation of the law is that red - anywhere on a vehicle that is not a designated emergency vehicle - is outside the scope of the law.

[Guest]

Turn signals are covered by a different section of the law.

Thank you for the clarification.

[abaduck 123]

A 33 post thread on lights... yep, must be EMTBravo!

[ONEEYEDMIC 68]

How about you save your money. Your gonna need it after I write you a ticket for all those silly lights.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Here is a question that does not relate to emergency services but on the same lines as this thread:

I was driving south bound on I-684 by exit 5 a few weeks ago and saw a tractor trailer that was carrying what I assumed to be some sort of HAZMAT material considering the placard and tanker nature of the trailer that had a rear facing red strobe that flashed every second for however long the driver stepped on the brakes.

Is this legal....I seems like a good idea to prevent a tanker from getting rear ended but it sounds like it was just as illegal as a rear facing red light on a volunteer firefighters POV.

Also, how would an all blue lightbar be treated under NYS bluelight laws?

[x648eng119 2]

Also, how would an all blue lightbar be treated under NYS bluelight laws?

Try reading previous posts....

(l) One bar light may be used, provided that:

(1) it has a housing not more than nine inches high;

(2) it consists of a blue or green housing, and not an uncolored housing with blue or green bulbs;

(3) all bulbs inside the housing flash on and off simultaneously;

(4) the blue or green housing is continuous with no breaks, barriers or coverings which could give the appearance of two or more lights; and

(5) it is mounted on the roof of the vehicle and not on the hood, trunk or other part of the vehicle.

[DR104 141]

Talk about beating a dead horse.......enough about the lights already.

I 2nd that!!!!

[Raz 14]

Try reading previous posts....

You didn't quote that it's also illegal for the bar light to be a strobe or LED. Which, coupled with the afformentioned points, makes every light bar I've ever seen on a POV illegal.

[DonMoose 3]

Honestly, why do some many people care about this?! Why is it there's 30+ posts in a thread like this, but no where near that many in the threads about training (something that ACTUALLY matters)??

Blue lights do NOTHING except identify you as a volly FF / EMS (or whatever) when you're driving like a moron to get to a call. Let's face the facts, vollies will never have red lights, and sirens, and TBH they aren't needed. I have a blue light, do I use it? No. Why? Because it draws unwanted attention. I'm sure we here on EMTBravo can be more productive instead of wasting time on another blue light thread.

My $0.02

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Ok, another question:

Say I am a volunteer fireman in Vermont, a state that allows for all fire department vehicles, volunteer or not to have red lights. What legal concerns do I have driving in a state like New York.

and vise-versa

Say I am a volunteer fireman from New York where I am allowed to have a blue lights, but the state I am in, say Vermont, uses blue for the color their police uses, what legal concerns do I face there?

[INIT915 1,119]

Ok, another question:

Say I am a volunteer fireman in Vermont, a state that allows for all fire department vehicles, volunteer or not to have red lights. What legal concerns do I have driving in a state like New York.

and vise-versa

Say I am a volunteer fireman from New York where I am allowed to have a blue lights, but the state I am in, say Vermont, uses blue for the color their police uses, what legal concerns do I face there?

See NYS VTL Sec. 375.41.8:

8. The provisions of this subdivision shall not be applicable to the

driver of a vehicle from another state or foreign jurisdiction which

vehicle has colored lights affixed but not revolving, rotating,

flashing, oscillating or constantly moving if the lights on such vehicle

comply with the laws of the state or home foreign jurisdiction in which

the vehicle is registered.

[NYRangers30 1]

Ok, another question:

Say I am a volunteer fireman in Vermont, a state that allows for all fire department vehicles, volunteer or not to have red lights. What legal concerns do I have driving in a state like New York.

and vise-versa

Say I am a volunteer fireman from New York where I am allowed to have a blue lights, but the state I am in, say Vermont, uses blue for the color their police uses, what legal concerns do I face there?

Dude you need to start reading the thread instead of asking all of these questions that have already been answered

[KC2OBW 1]

Seriously who cares? If some one has illegal lights on there car they'll get caught sooner or later, its their car they make the payments and pay the insurance let them do what they please if they are doing something wrong then o well its really not my problem, they'll get caught and have to pay the fines.

[NYRangers30 1]

Seriously who cares? If some one has illegal lights on there car they'll get caught sooner or later, its their car they make the payments and pay the insurance let them do what they please if they are doing something wrong then o well its really not my problem, they'll get caught and have to pay the fines.

Dude you couldn't be more right. All of these conversations need to be put to bed.

If you wanna talk about lights go to www.elightbars.org. Their forum is dedicated to that stuff

[x635 4,066]

Dude you couldn't be more right. All of these conversations need to be put to bed.

If you wanna talk about lights go to www.elightbars.org. Their forum is dedicated to that stuff

Actually, you should let the staff of this forum decide what is discussed here and what isn't. Some people wish to discuss these topics, much to the annoyance of some who often take the posts way off topic which is the main cause of the issue. This issue may not be important or of interest to you, but it might be of interest to other members.

We don't want to have these same discussions over and over, but all members should feel free to ask questions and discuss or debate emergency service issues on this site. To those making comments about there not being similar discussions on training issues, that's not true, and if you believe that, then why not start some interesting training discussion yourself?

If people hate lights so much and think they are of no significance, then why don't we just remove them from all apparatus and just respond normal traffic?

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I am just asking questions....I do not have the time or the patience to read and interpret the statutes, I know how I read something is not 100% how it should be read or is enforced.

I want someone of some knowledge of the PD realm to answer my questions, which occured (thank you INIT915)....not some fire explorer who has no business answering PD questions in which they have no knowledge nor experience.

I appreciate those in law enforcement who have given and interpreted the statutes for me, you have cleared up alot of questions.

[ex-commish 490]

I aksed a simple, direct question based on something I saw. A simple, direct answer was given thanks to Chris who is probably more than qualified to answer the original question. Why it resulted in 30+ posts is beyond me but amazing. Lights on POV's are a waste in my opinion and can be a liability not to mention how ridiculous some cars are outfitted. It is an embarassment.

Ok...fire away

[Raz 14]

If people hate lights so much and think they are of no significance, then why don't we just remove them from all apparatus and just respond normal traffic?

I think you typed "apparatus" where you meant to type "P.O.V."

No matter how much some guys wish, or how many lights they put on it, their SUV/Family Sedan/Pick-Up is never going to be considered an emergency vehicle. Hell, you see it in this thread, some people are looking at laws pertaining to emergency vehicles and thinking that it somehow relates to their car.

Of course, like every problem, I don't blame those guys, I blame the department heads that let the nonsense continue after being made aware of it.

[DonMoose 3]

Actually, you should let the staff of this forum decide what is discussed here and what isn't. Some people wish to discuss these topics, much to the annoyance of some who often take the posts way off topic which is the main cause of the issue. This issue may not be important or of interest to you, but it might be of interest to other members.

We don't want to have these same discussions over and over, but all members should feel free to ask questions and discuss or debate emergency service issues on this site. To those making comments about there not being similar discussions on training issues, that's not true, and if you believe that, then why not start some interesting training discussion yourself?

If people hate lights so much and think they are of no significance, then why don't we just remove them from all apparatus and just respond normal traffic?

Since that training comment was directed at me, I'll explain and attempt to make others understand my point entirely.

I've posted a couple training threads asking questions and I've gotten 10 replies tops. Now, maybe it's just me but I consider training to be more important than a discussion about blue lights, red lights, pink lights, etc. Since this topic is such a hot-bed of activity, why don't you open one of the many blue light threads (or ANY lighting thread because they all wind up being about blue in the end) that already exist and continue the discussion there instead of having multiple threads about that same thing, with the same answers. Seems a bit redundant IMO. I'm just disagreeing with the fact that there are so many threads about this same thing, again with the same exact answers. Also, I don't think anyone here hates lights and wants to 'respond normal traffic' but rather, they dislike the discussions about blue lights and what is legal/illegal. QTIP - I wasn't saying anything bad about you or the forum. Not everyone has the same opinion as you.

I think you typed "apparatus" where you meant to type "P.O.V."

No matter how much some guys wish, or how many lights they put on it, their SUV/Family Sedan/Pick-Up is never going to be considered an emergency vehicle. Hell, you see it in this thread, some people are looking at laws pertaining to emergency vehicles and thinking that it somehow relates to their car.

Of course, like every problem, I don't blame those guys, I blame the department heads that let the nonsense continue after being made aware of it.

I tell ya, I have to agree 100% (yet again).

Edited January 29, 2009 by DonMoose

[Guest]

Anyone see PURPLE strobes on a hearse and the family limo behind it?

[Raz 14]

Since that training comment was directed at me, I'll explain and attempt to make others understand my point entirely.

I've posted a couple training threads asking questions and I've gotten 10 replies tops.

I think the reason for the lack of replies to your training questions isn't that they aren't good questions, it's just that they're not controversial. It's not that guys don't care about training, it's just that once an instructor or well respected officer gives his response, that's pretty much it, case closed. I know that I'm not going to argue with anything that Captain Nechis, Chief Flynn, FF Carrol or some of the other guys on here who have paid their dues have to say about tactics or response.

With these other topics, however, someone always seems to have a "but wait...", usually because they don't like the answer that they're given.

[Grumpy 1]

One of the PD members on this dizzy thread mentioned that POs are not required to use seat belts. Dosen't make sense to me! Is this a fact? I can only hope that most PDs require their use.

[INIT915 1,119]

One of the PD members on this dizzy thread mentioned that POs are not required to use seat belts. Dosen't make sense to me! Is this a fact? I can only hope that most PDs require their use.

They are not required to, but in my personal opinion, they are idiot's if they do not. I would say a vast majority do in fact wear them, at least with the group I work with. No emergency vehicle operators are, nor are mail carriers or taxi drivers.

See NYS VTL Sec. 1229.c.4, 9 and 10.

4. For the purposes of this section, the following terms shall have

the following meanings: (a) "motor vehicle" shall include all motor

vehicles which are required by section three hundred eighty-three of

this chapter or regulation or would be required if such motor vehicle

were registered in New York state to be equipped by a safety belt but

shall not include those vehicles which are used as school buses, as such

term is defined in section one hundred forty-two of this chapter and

those vehicles which are authorized emergency vehicles, as such term is

defined in section one hundred one of this chapter

9. Notwithstanding the provisions of subdivision four, this section

shall not apply to taxis, liveries, and buses other than school buses.

10. The provisions of this section shall not apply to persons employed

as rural letter carriers, as defined by the United States postal

service, while such persons are discharging the duties of such

employment.

This is only actual emergency vehicles as defined in VTL Sec. 101.

Authorized emergency vehicle. Every ambulance, police vehicle

or bicycle, correction vehicle, fire vehicle, civil defense emergency

vehicle, emergency ambulance service vehicle, blood delivery vehicle,

county emergency medical services vehicle, environmental emergency

response vehicle, sanitation patrol vehicle, hazardous materials

emergency vehicle and ordnance disposal vehicle of the armed forces of

the United States.

Edit: Added text of Sec 101.

Edited January 29, 2009 by INIT915

[Bnechis 3,961]

Anyone see PURPLE strobes on a hearse and the family limo behind it?

Its important that the guy riding in the back gets where he is going quickly....hurry up and wait (forever)

[helicopper 1,050]

I am just asking questions....I do not have the time or the patience to read and interpret the statutes, I know how I read something is not 100% how it should be read or is enforced.

I want someone of some knowledge of the PD realm to answer my questions, which occured (thank you INIT915)....not some fire explorer who has no business answering PD questions in which they have no knowledge nor experience.

I appreciate those in law enforcement who have given and interpreted the statutes for me, you have cleared up alot of questions.

Just an opinion, if you're going to do something that is governed by a statute, it is probably in your best interest to do some research on the subject and at the very least read the applicable section as it appears in the law, not from a random website (this one included) to insure that you're getting the complete picture and accurate/up-to-date information.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Just an opinion, if you're going to do something that is governed by a statute, it is probably in your best interest to do some research on the subject and at the very least read the applicable section as it appears in the law, not from a random website (this one included) to insure that you're getting the complete picture and accurate/up-to-date information.

With the afore mentioned blue light statutes and what you just said in-mind would you not agree that asking a police officer like yourself or INIT915 or any other police officers opinion on their interpretation and enforcement of blue light laws is acceptable research in determining the laws. Reading the statute is all fine and good but again, would you not agree that seeking someone, especially from law enforcement or a lawyer, to explain the laws and offer their own opinion, even if it is informal, is a good in order to get a better idea of the laws and their enforcement? I thought that this site was about seeking the opinion of others who have experience in the field.

[ex-commish 490]

Think about this:

You see somebody responding in a POV, they have all these lights going looking like an emergency vehicle (mainly police, because police is mainly known for using uc cars,) than they stop at a red light, and stay there until it turns green. What do you think the people watching you will think?

I asked this question once during a heated debate about lights in an EVOC class I was teaching. One student said to go through the red light.

[ex-commish 490]

Yeah, not if its a volunteer (non emergency vehicle) pov with blue or green lights in the front, red/yellow lights in the rear window and white hide away lights in the front turn signals, white in the front hi beams, yellow/red rear running lights and white rear reverse lights

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEYKXgx2JpE

Guess you can add that to the "what is a buff" list..

[x129K 1,393]

LOL...I always turned my dash light off at traffic lights to save myself the emarassment..