Career not allowed to volunteer? (merged threads)

[pasobuff 38]

I took this off the Upstate Forum - and am wondering if it is being enforced down the Westchester and elsewhere.....I know when I was down there the topic came up - but this was years ago.....

From WRGB's Website - (Albany, N.Y.) Firefighters in the City of Albany have been informed, as of February 1st, all union members will be forbidden from serving as a Volunteer Firefighter in another community. This policy, outlined in a letter from the Albany Fire Department's Union, was distributed to members two weeks ago. Union President, Sam Fresina tells our Marci Natale the Union is simply enforcing a by-law passed by the International Association of Firefighters. Fresina says this is crucial at a time when the city, because of budgetary contraints is not filling 20 vacant positions in the department. Fresina says: "We're facing a fiscal crisis right now in the City of Albany. We're down 21 budgeted firefighter positions and bound to be down 24-25 in the next couple months and because of that we're gonna be asked to step up and do more."

I personally don't think the last sentence makes any sense.......if someone has to work overtime, the only thing that will be affected is the community where they volunteer - it isn't as if the volunteer position would take precedence over the paid position.......

[markmets415 524]

Interesting, does anyone have the actual by-law to share here that this piece is siting from IAFF?

[xfirefighter484x 234]

I believe someone posted is in the forums about a month or 2 ago. If I get a chance (and someone doesn't beat me to it) I will find and post a link!

[jack10562 414]

Unacceptable. I have an issue with any union dictating to it's dues paying membership what they can, or rather can't do, off the job on their own free time.

Suppose they wanted to forbid other dangerous (legal) activities, like motorcycle racing?

[mfc2257 464]

I believe they are mis-interpreting the by-law which states something to the effect of: A member of an IAFF Local may not volunteer for a department that would be considered a direct competitor of another IAFF Local. For example, a FF from New Rochelle who lives in Mohegan would not be able to volunteer in Mohegan or Peekskill but there shouldn't be any reason why they couldn't volunteer in Put Valley or Yorktown as those departments do not have IAFF Locals.... A Career Firefighter who works for Prince Georges County Fire Rescue should not be volunteering at Kentand, Bladensburg, or Ritchie but there is no reason why they couldn't volunteer for Gettysburg or New Oxford if they lived in Pennsylvania.

Quoted from the resolution that I brought up months back:

Resolution No. 2

COMMITTEE ASSIGNMENT: Constitution & By-Laws

Re: Secondary Employment

".....WHEREAS, numerous affiliates expressed strong feelings that the language of this provision should be amended to ensure clarity of intent and consistency of enforcement and to clearly prohibit IAFF members from working secondary employment as a firefighter, emergency medical services worker, public safety or law enforcement officer, or as a worker in a related service, where such job is within the work jurisdiction of any IAFF affiliate or materially erodes the conditions of work of any affiliate;"

Edited January 15, 2009 by mfc2257

[markmets415 524]

Nate I believe this is the one you mentioned?

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=27108

[pasobuff 38]

I believe they are mis-interpreting the by-law which states something to the effect of: A member of an IAFF Local may not volunteer for a department that would be considered a direct competitor of another IAFF Local. For example, a FF from New Rochelle who lives in Mohegan would not be able to volunteer in Mohegan or Peekskill but there shouldn't be any reason why they couldn't volunteer in Put Valley or Yorktown as those departments do not have IAFF Locals.... A Career Firefighter who works for Prince Georges County Fire Rescue should not be volunteering at Kentand, Bladensburg, or Ritchie but there is no reason why they couldn't volunteer for Gettysburg or New Oxford if they lived in Pennsylvania.

I believe you might be right - this was the type of scenario I remember when I was down in that neck of the woods - and/or a career ff could not volunteer in a neighboring/mutual aid department - if they responded into the career/IAFF area then there would be a conflict again.....

[efd184 59]

I posted this questions months ago are received a bunch of negative emails from cry babies. I'm pretty sure it was closed and this will end up the same way once it becomes negative to the volunteers!!!

[markmets415 524]

I posted this questions months ago are received a bunch of negative emails from cry babies. I'm pretty sure it was closed and this will end up the same way once it becomes negative to the volunteers!!!

I believe the thread you are referencing is the one I posted above. Some of us volunteers actually welcome the career FF'er opinions, opinions are just that opinions, it truly pays to be opened minded. As long as it does not get personal and individuals are singled out and attacked for no other reason other than they voiced their opinion. Imagine a world where everyone agreed on everything, it would be a pretty boring and unproductive place.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

OK let me throw this at you! I am a career firefighter and lets say I volunteer somewhere else. Over the years I develop respatory problems, and my department I career in won't pay for or question my medical needs because they say that I may have developed my medical condition at my volunteer department. How can I go to my union for support and how can they go to bat for me when there is that doubt. It is just not worth the risk to screw my family or my career. Now look at it from that point of view. I came from the volunteer ranks and I am not forgetting where I came from!

[exmrvfc 0]

OK let me throw this at you! I am a career firefighter and lets say I volunteer somewhere else. Over the years I develop respatory problems, and my department I career in won't pay for or question my medical needs because they say that I may have developed my medical condition at my volunteer department. How can I go to my union for support and how can they go to bat for me when there is that doubt. It is just not worth the risk to screw my family or my career. Now look at it from that point of view. I came from the volunteer ranks and I am not forgetting where I came from!

I have seen this argument before but has there ever been a case where FF was denied benefits due to this? We all know of guys (PD and FD) who have been injured on the ballfield or the "b" job and make it back to work where the injury suddenly occurs. There are enough of those cases that are covered. Wouldn't the municipality employing the FF have to prove it didn't happen on the job or does 207 require the FF to prove it did happen on the job?

[helicopper 1,050]

I posted this questions months ago are received a bunch of negative emails from cry babies. I'm pretty sure it was closed and this will end up the same way once it becomes negative to the volunteers!!!

I can't address the issue of e-mails but the thread was not closed by the EMTBravo staff - it must have closed automatically after a period of inactivity.

I'm pretty sure that as long as everyone stays professional and objective, this thread will stay open!

[JFLYNN 681]

I have seen this argument before but has there ever been a case where FF was denied benefits due to this? We all know of guys (PD and FD) who have been injured on the ballfield or the "b" job and make it back to work where the injury suddenly occurs. There are enough of those cases that are covered. Wouldn't the municipality employing the FF have to prove it didn't happen on the job or does 207 require the FF to prove it did happen on the job?

Wow! What a statement!! Well, I can't tell you that "we all" don't know what you have alleged...

Maybe you should be more specific when you make such allegations, i.e. names or places...

And please speak only for yourself, not "all" of us...

[JFLYNN 681]

Wow! What a statement!! Well, I can't tell you that "we all" don't know what you have alleged...

Maybe you should be more specific when you make such allegations, i.e. names or places...

And please speak only for yourself, not "all" of us...

***I should have typed "can" rather than "can't"

[ajsbear 11]

I have seen this argument before but has there ever been a case where FF was denied benefits due to this? We all know of guys (PD and FD) who have been injured on the ballfield or the "b" job and make it back to work where the injury suddenly occurs. There are enough of those cases that are covered. Wouldn't the municipality employing the FF have to prove it didn't happen on the job or does 207 require the FF to prove it did happen on the job?

I would never make such an allegation in a public forum. You never know who reads these. What you make reference to is highly illegal. I suggest you either rephrase this or delete it altogether.

[OLDGUY19 6]

I have seen this argument before but has there ever been a case where FF was denied benefits due to this? We all know of guys (PD and FD) who have been injured on the ballfield or the "b" job and make it back to work where the injury suddenly occurs. There are enough of those cases that are covered. Wouldn't the municipality employing the FF have to prove it didn't happen on the job or does 207 require the FF to prove it did happen on the job?

This is one reason why Career and Volunteers don't get along.Because of these kinds comments.Also comes to mind two career killed in texas while fighting a church fire as Volunteers in there hometown.Was denied lodd benefits from their career muncipality which was greater then their volunteer comunnity so WHO in the end suffers.

[pasobuff 38]

This is one reason why Career and Volunteers don't get along.Because of these kinds comments.Also comes to mind two career killed in texas while fighting a church fire as Volunteers in there hometown.Was denied lodd benefits from their career muncipality which was greater then their volunteer comunnity so WHO in the end suffers.

I think what people need to remember too is that we are all adults - if/when you pull 'double duty' as a volunteer and career - you should know what the risks/consequences are if you get hurt/killed on a scene. What is your coverage -and if you don't like the answer, then it is your CHOICE not to volunteer.......

In the case mentioned above, it is the FAMILY who suffers - not for the 'loss' of perceived benefits - but for the loss of their loved one!

[helicopper 1,050]

I have seen this argument before but has there ever been a case where FF was denied benefits due to this? We all know of guys (PD and FD) who have been injured on the ballfield or the "b" job and make it back to work where the injury suddenly occurs. There are enough of those cases that are covered. Wouldn't the municipality employing the FF have to prove it didn't happen on the job or does 207 require the FF to prove it did happen on the job?

I don't think that fraud is the situation that was cited in the hypothetical situation and I don't think any of us condone falsifying records by anyone especially when it makes it that much harder for those with legitimate injuries to receive the benefits they're entitled to.

Fraud and misrepresentation of injuries is exactly why our injured brothers and sisters are put through the ringer when they are injured on the job.

If you know of a fraudulent claim being made against our pension system, shame on you for not reporting it!

[exmrvfc 0]

This is one reason why Career and Volunteers don't get along.Because of these kinds comments.Also comes to mind two career killed in texas while fighting a church fire as Volunteers in there hometown.Was denied lodd benefits from their career muncipality which was greater then their volunteer comunnity so WHO in the end suffers.

What I posted is not anti-career nor an indictment of the 207 system. My question is who has the burden of proof? If a municipality wanted to deny line of duty benefits, such as disability, do they bear the burden of proof to prove the cause of the disability happened outside of work? Or does the FF bear the burden to prove it happened at work??