Officer respiratory protection

[ny10570 745]

After hearing about a few incidents and witnessing a couple more I'm now pretty convinced that police in certain areas should have some sort of respiratory protection. More specifically the recent Mt. Kisco fire. This is not a knock on MKFD in any way shape or form, but from alarm dispatch to command on scene according to the incident alerts and discussion thread 12 minutes elapsed. Mt. Kisco made an excellent stop, but as volunteers responding from home to the fire house and then to the scene them and every other all volunteer dept is always going to be late to the game. The same goes for my FD. We have the added bonus of 911 going to PD and then getting transfered to 60. Thats another 30 to 60 seconds that we fall behind. You can even take the whole cop standing around not doing anything part of this and just make it about victim survival. How long can someone survive in that environment before the smoke gets them or the fire (which is doubling every minute) gets to them? In communities with paid or in house volleys this would be a non-issue as the firefighters would be getting on scene soon enough to effect a rescue, but this doesn't apply to most of this area or the rest of the country for that matter.

With a reliable report of persons trapped how long are the police officers suppose to wait for the fire department? I know one officer personally who after doing a quick check of building after an oil burner back puff was nearly hospitalized days later with an asthma attack. He hadn't had asthma since he was a child, and it took nearly two months for him to get back to normal.

This was first put to me by a friend in the Navy. Upon report of a fire the first people on scene are not in full PPE. They have SCBA and an extinguisher. Their job is to locate the fire, contain it, and effect rescue of injured personnel until the fully dressed guys can get in there and make a push with a line if necessary. Due to space concerns and cost benefit, something as simple as a personal rescue filter and SCBA bask could provide the officer with enough respiratory protection to assist residents with evacuation, close all doors, and maybe even give the FD a heads up as to where the fire might be. This is not meant to turn cops into firefighters. The polyester uniforms alone makes that a non-starter. it would however have kept 3 Mt. Kisco officers out of the hospital and go a long way toward preventing one of them from becoming a victim.

[Bnechis 3,961]

After hearing about a few incidents and witnessing a couple more I'm now pretty convinced that police in certain areas should have some sort of respiratory protection. More specifically the recent Mt. Kisco fire.

Big mistake.

In NR we had a fire in an animal hospital in the middle of the night, report of a overnight attendant in the building. PD arrived 2 min ahead of FD and made entry. Was not trained in search or anything else. got disoriented and we had to drag him out, which delayed the rescue of the civilian. Granted he did not have SCBA, but we dont allow 1 man entrys in the fire service, should PD. What about 2 in 2 out? Shortly after this incident the journal news had an article about the PO "Hero" and the life saving award he was given (remember he did not save anyone, just delayed the rescue), I went to cut the article out of the paper and checked the back 1st. The article that filled the back of this story was how PESH (NYS DOL OSHA) was fining the PD for failing to protect their employee. It stated that they needed a policy that prohibited members without the full protective envelope (boots, bunkers, turnout coat, gloves, hood, helmet and SCBA) and since they are career employees at least the state mandated 269 Hour career ff certification they can not be allowed into a fire.

While it would be nice to give PD the ability to not be helpless at thess types of calls, giving them a $4,000 SCBA does not do the trick. They need to be fully equipped and trained and with enough present to do the job. This is generally not feasable.

Even if you give cops SCBA, this may place the victims in more harm. Take the case of NYPD ESU officer Francis LaSala who while wearing a dept issued SCBA entered a burning building on Jan 10, 1987. ESU had SCBA's to be used with CPC (Chemical protective clothing) he did not have any turnouts. His partner vented a window, which caused a flashover in to the stairwell that he was searching. He was burned over 70% of his body and died a few days later in the burn unit.

The lack of PPE was partially an issue here, but the lack of training in fire behavior is what really killed this brave officer. If he did not have SCAB, he would not have been able to get into this building and it would not have mattered what anyone else did.

If the community wants a faster response to fires it has 2 options: 1) have on duty volunteer crews or 2) hire firefighters.

Giving police officers some of the tools and no training in its use will get them killed. Look at it this way, why not give onduty firefighters a gun, but no bullets and no training. If we see a crime in progress we can hold up the gun order the perp to freeze until the PD arrives. Would that stop a crime or 2...maybe.....would it get a firefighter shot....?

[NWFDMedic 58]

What's next, give paramedics SCBA's too? In some places, it's entirely possible that the paramedic service would be the first on scene. A piece of equipment does not give you the training required to be a firefighter, experience and training does. We don't need to be creating more patients for FD to rescue. I will grant you that it's a helpless situation but I wouldn't expect the police to give me a body armor and then give me the ok to enter a situation with an armed assailant until they arrive.

Personally, I think all emergency responders should receive some cross-training in the other disciplines, not to do their job, but to find out what they can do pending the arrival of the trained responder. Police officers and EMS workers should be trained not to park in front of a collapse zone or fire hydrant, when a safe inspection can be made, how to interview residents about other occupants and where they may be found, any potential for hazardous materials, location of utilities, etc. There is plenty of information you can gather for the incoming fire units without putting your life in danger. I also don't have a problem with training LEO's a bit about making a safe and limited entry (say within sight of the access/egress) teaching them what to look for that may present a hazard that may preclude them from doing so.

Unless we make all responders universal emergency responders, there are always going to be situations where the first discipline that arrives is not the most appropriate for the job. Regardless of training, there are always going to be those rare but possible sentinel events where an emergency responder may have to make the conscious decision to take a risk to save a life. OSHA and PESH or local agencies can make all the regulations they want, but they can't change the programming of most emergency responders and how they will act in that moment.

Edited January 15, 2009 by NWFDMedic

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Yes...police officers should be trained and have access to SCBA's but not for entry into buildings with IDLH's that firefighters are trained and properly equipped to enter and mitigate.

Where officers need SCBA training is for when suspicious incidents occur which fall under a potential crime and in the event that during a raid they come into contact or have the potential for having a meth lab whose chemicals pose a direct threat to them.

[jd783 64]

And we want guns(cool ones like Dirty Harry)

[helicopper 1,050]

I have to agree with bnechis and alsff on this. As much as I'm an advocate for advanced training and equipment for the PD, the use of SCBA in a firefighting situation is for the fire service. Not every PO needs to be trained in working at a contaminated crime scene or other unusual incident requiring advanced respiratory protection - that's for specialized units like SWAT, Bomb Squad, Crime Scene Units, etc.

It wouldn't be appropriate to provide just an SCBA anyway. As Barry pointed out, each PO would have to be outfitted with a full ensemble from boots to helmets. Once all that stuff is on, he (or she) effectively stops being a police officer because they can't wear their gun belt and carry all their other required equipment over the PPE and wearing it under the PPE is wrong on many levels. Not to mention the fiscal impact of outfitting every cop in Westchester with firefighting gear - a conservative estimate is about 2.5 million dollars. What's more important? Cops keeping their jobs or getting PPE for a new, non-law enforcement job?

With a reliable report of persons trapped how long are the police officers suppose to wait for the fire department?

If you're being shot at, how long are you going to wait for police before charging the suspect yourself, tackling him, wrestling the gun away and holding him while safeguarding the weapon so nobody else can pick it up? Obviously, it's not appropriate for you to take that kind of action so why is appropriate for me to run into a burning building filled with unknown hazards without the right training or equipment?

The military example is a poor comparison for a couple of reasons. The military is a different animal; they train exhaustively so they're not providing equipment to someone without training. And perhaps most important, on a ship a fire can kill everyone aboard. While a structure fire is dangerous to everyone in the building (and perhaps in close proximity outside) it's not going to kill the guy across the street or down the block. Before someone starts talking about the major conflagrations of our time, people can run away from a city fire - they can't run away from a ship fire!

Finally, the cop shouldn't just be standing around. He or she can do a multitude of other things: secure the perimeter to prevent anyone else from going into the structure, using sirens/PA or just a big mouth to warn of the hazard to get people moving, making sure the FD can access the scene, establishing traffic control points, diverting buses or other traffic, looking for other hazards, etc. etc. etc. (I'm sure we can all add to this list).

I appreciate your sentiment, and agree that something should be done, but don't believe the best action is providing cops with SCBA. Perhaps we should look at ways of reducing the response times of fire departments or improving code enforcement to make sure that alarms and detectors are working.

[jayhalsey 6]

If you're being shot at, how long are you going to wait for police before charging the suspect yourself, tackling him, wrestling the gun away and holding him while safeguarding the weapon so nobody else can pick it up? Obviously, it's not appropriate for you to take that kind of action so why is appropriate for me to run into a burning building filled with unknown hazards without the right training or equipment?

Thats it, in a nutshell. If the roles were reversed, would we even be having this conversation?

I'm all for getting the victim out as quickly as possible, but you can't let rescuer #1 become victim #2. All that does is hurt victim #1's chances for survival.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Isnt there a town some where (it was mention on here I just have no idea where), that cross trains its cops as Fireman, Police Officer and Paramedic and equips them for all three.

Could that be the answer you were looking for?

[markmets415 524]

We do Fire/Police/First Responder, but that is at a NYS facility not a town or fire district.

[ny10570 745]

This isn't about turning cops into firefighters. They should not be ventilating, fighting the fire, or going to the floor above to search for extension. This is to assist in evacuation, not be making grabs from the fire apartment.

The NAVY example is a perfect example. They have strict controls on how far they go and a specific task to do that does not push them past the limited protection their equipment provides.

New Ro is not a place where this would be useful. There is plenty for PD to do before the FD arrives. Same for Yonkers, New Ro, Peekskill, Pelham, Eastchester, etc. This an issue unique to communities covered by volunteer FDs where police will be spending a large amount of time on scene awaiting firefighters.

In the shooting scenario, that'd be like trying to tackle involved room with a can. Flat out stupid without all the right equipment and training. What if you're in a mall or building where a shooting is occurring on the floor above? Should the firefighter who happens to be there go stand by an extinguisher or guide as many people as possible to the nearest exit? Once again I am not advocating police trying to be firefighters. However 3 officers went to the hospital all ready and I don't think anyone here would second guess what they did.

To the Mt. Kisco guys, do you think the civilians at that fire could have survived 10 more minutes in that fire? Seeing as one was later transfered to WMC for respiratory burns I'm going to guess no.

All members of emergency services are trained to operate up to the limits of their protective equipment. There are lines out there that you approach but do not cross. Should we not give EMS personnel vests for fear they might run into active shootings? At work I have an apr and suit that provides enough protection where I can enter an IDLH environment to effect rescue or operate safely in the warm zone. This doesn't mean I'm to be going into fires. No matter what you do someone is going to exceed the limits of their protection and thats not reason enough to not provide members with protection that can save them.

[ny10570 745]

Isnt there a town some where (it was mention on here I just have no idea where), that cross trains its cops as Fireman, Police Officer and Paramedic and equips them for all three.

Could that be the answer you were looking for?

Thats asking for trouble. Its hard as hell to be great at either one. Many break their butt just to be good at the one they choose to do. The time it takes to be good at all three is too much to ask of one person.

[mfvfd 1]

Lets ask this then--- You as a firefighter, come upon a burning building with people trapped. You pull up to this or observe this, would you wait around for a fire apparatus to show up to get the proper ppe, ( scott, hose line, back up team ) or would you do what you stomach says to do and run inside and save a life at risk. Granted we all are really cross trained- be it police fire or ems. We are all here to save lives. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do to get the job done. I have read articles in the past when many firefighters or police officers have been successful in saving a persons life without the proper ppe. It is a risk we are all willing to take when the adrenaline takes over to get the job done. When it goes right that person is a hero, when it goes wrong everyone is ready to monday night quarterback. Remember there is alot of leo, ems and firefighters that are already crossed trained ready to do what it takes. I know for a fact that one of the leo's from kisco is an officer with the local fire department. Same training just different uniform and a different situation. Would it be a great world if every police officer was equipped with every tool of the trade. Of course, But OSHA, Unions, and ADMIN and every other letter in the alphabet would have something to say about it. Great job by Kisco PD

[Bnechis 3,961]

The NAVY example is a perfect example. They have strict controls on how far they go and a specific task to do that does not push them past the limited protection their equipment provides.

The problem is most civilian positions are not the navy. When you exceed the strict controls in the Navy you are punished (look at the fire on the USS GW last year Capt & EX will loss there jobs over it) When you exceed the strict controls in many local emergency services we give you a medal and points toward promotion.

This an issue unique to communities covered by volunteer FDs where police will be spending a large amount of time on scene awaiting firefighters.

So the issue is how the VFD's operate? Does that mean they are not the same as career FD's that you claim dont need this? If the problem is with the VFD's lets find a way to deal with it in the FD.

How many communities send PO to check and advise instead of dispatching the FD, because we dont want to bother them?

Once again I am not advocating police trying to be firefighters. However 3 officers went to the hospital all ready and I don't think anyone here would second guess what they did.

If the 3 officers were able to go deeper maybe they would not have gone to the ER....they could be going to the mourge.

All members of emergency services are trained to operate up to the limits of their protective equipment. There are lines out there that you approach but do not cross.

How often do they exceed that line?

At work I have an apr and suit that provides enough protection where I can enter an IDLH environment to effect rescue or operate safely in the warm zone.

Do you have detection equipment? APR's are not designed to go into IDLH environments unless you have already determined what is present and the concentration. Did your APR training teach that?

No matter what you do someone is going to exceed the limits of their protection and thats not reason enough to not provide members with protection that can save them.

You wrote that the Navy does not exceed them and that emergency services are trained and do not exceed this....which is it?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Granted we all are really cross trained- be it police fire or ems.

I'm a medic & a Fire officer....my cross training in law enforcement is 1) dont mess up the crime scene & 2) duck. There is enough training in each area to fill 125% of the time before looking at training in the other areas.

I have read articles in the past when many firefighters or police officers have been successful in saving a persons life without the proper ppe.

You have read....I stood next to a PO moments before he was intubated, He asked my partner (who was a friend) to say goodbye to his wife and kids (as an experienced EMT he knew what was going to happen). He was wearing SCBA when the hall flashed.

It is a risk we are all willing to take when the adrenaline takes over to get the job done.

If the adrenaline has taken over then your training has failed

Same training just different uniform and a different situation. Would it be a great world if every police officer was equipped with every tool of the trade.

Wouldnt it be great if every police officer was equipped with every tool of the law enforcement trade? Does MKPD have EVERYTHING it needs to perform the mission it was set up to do?

Great job by Kisco PD

Agreed

[helicopper 1,050]

Lets ask this then--- You as a firefighter, come upon a burning building with people trapped. You pull up to this or observe this, would you wait around for a fire apparatus to show up to get the proper ppe, ( scott, hose line, back up team ) or would you do what you stomach says to do and run inside and save a life at risk. Granted we all are really cross trained- be it police fire or ems. We are all here to save lives. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do to get the job done. I have read articles in the past when many firefighters or police officers have been successful in saving a persons life without the proper ppe. It is a risk we are all willing to take when the adrenaline takes over to get the job done. When it goes right that person is a hero, when it goes wrong everyone is ready to monday night quarterback. Remember there is alot of leo, ems and firefighters that are already crossed trained ready to do what it takes. I know for a fact that one of the leo's from kisco is an officer with the local fire department. Same training just different uniform and a different situation. Would it be a great world if every police officer was equipped with every tool of the trade. Of course, But OSHA, Unions, and ADMIN and every other letter in the alphabet would have something to say about it. Great job by Kisco PD

I don't think its always "successful"; most times it is "lucky". We also read about people dying in such situations - that's not monday morning QB'ing, it's simply reading the facts of the investigation.

Aren't there many things you can do outside without violating training, policies, and laws/regulations by entering an IDLH environment?

We're not all cross-trained just because we are all here to save lives.

I'm delighted that the outcome in Mt Kisco was a positive one. I just hope everyone realizes that they were lucky they didn't succumb to the smoke and become victims themselves. Isn't every fire different? What worked for these guys in Kisco may be deadly in another fire in another building at another time, right?

[lad12derff 283]

Lets ask this then--- You as a firefighter, come upon a burning building with people trapped. You pull up to this or observe this, would you wait around for a fire apparatus to show up to get the proper ppe, ( scott, hose line, back up team ) or would you do what you stomach says to do and run inside and save a life at risk. Granted we all are really cross trained- be it police fire or ems. We are all here to save lives. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do to get the job done. I have read articles in the past when many firefighters or police officers have been successful in saving a persons life without the proper ppe. It is a risk we are all willing to take when the adrenaline takes over to get the job done. When it goes right that person is a hero, when it goes wrong everyone is ready to monday night quarterback. Remember there is alot of leo, ems and firefighters that are already crossed trained ready to do what it takes. I know for a fact that one of the leo's from kisco is an officer with the local fire department. Same training just different uniform and a different situation. Would it be a great world if every police officer was equipped with every tool of the trade. Of course, But OSHA, Unions, and ADMIN and every other letter in the alphabet would have something to say about it. Great job by Kisco PD

We are trained in fire behavior and the risk/reward factor. I would crawl in without SCBA after a quick size up if I could. If the cop is a volly I am sure he would also size up the situation cause he is also trained. It is the other guys who go in with no training and just plain make a mess out of the whole thing.

[791075 34]

Doesnt the PD have enough on their plate. Some cops talk about their overwhelming workload ,if so, they should concentrate on crimefighting and leave firefighting to the people assigned the responsibility of mitigating fires and making rescues...the FD. Who's watching the streets while they're attempting "rescues" in a fire building. They are not trained or equipped for these duties, they should stick to their job. I realize many times they are trying to do the right thing, but lets face it, someone could get hurt ...or worse.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I agree with alot of the people here when I say leave the firefighting to the firefighters. Police Departments already can't afford to provide enough law enforcement training and equipment for all of their officers, how are we going to afford firefighting training and equipment for them? Redundancy is not necessarily a good thing. Some municipalities have "Public Safety Departments" where the Police/Fire/EMS are all the same, and if that works where you're from, great, but I don't think its plausible everywhere.

That being said, the Police should be issued SCBA or respiratory protection for WMD/HAZMAT/Clandestine Drug Labs/etc. I know the State of Connecticut issued Class C suits to every police department in the state. CT color-coded the suits and everything, Lime Green for FD, Olive Drab for PD, and I can't remember what EMS is, it might be orange or blue. Given the state of the world today, Police Officers need to be trained for HAZMAT, but not for fire suppression and rescue.

[lad12derff 283]

Doesnt the PD have enough on their plate. Some cops talk about their overwhelming workload ,if so, they should concentrate on crimefighting and leave firefighting to the people assigned the responsibility of mitigating fires and making rescues...the FD. Who's watching the streets while they're attempting "rescues" in a fire building. They are not trained or equipped for these duties, they should stick to their job. I realize many times they are trying to do the right thing, but lets face it, someone could get hurt ...or worse.

"Cowboy up"

Edited January 16, 2009 by lad12derff

[791075 34]

"Cowboy up"

you know it brother.

[jack10562 414]

There is no feasible way each LEO can be outfitted with an SCBA for "rescue entry attempt" scenarios. First is the actual cost of the equipment.

Every wearer would have to be medically screened and fit-tested annually, in addition there's the mandated initial, quarterly, and annual refresher training. Can't forget the annual equipment flow-testing and maintenance. Where is it going to be stored? The list goes on.

[ny10570 745]

It doesn't have to be SCBA. There are other devices like the last chance air filter. Every cop should all ready have a mask that they are trained and fit tested on every year to address terrorism threats. Adding another mask or better yet a mask that would accommodate both filters would be easy to fit into training.

Capt. Nechis there is no doubt that the volunteer system has flaws and is in many cases broken. I don't see it being fixed anytime soon so in the short term I advocate protecting the people who will be put at risk.

As an alternative, what should be done in the short term? Even if the state were to mandate consolidation and 24/7 firehouse staffing in the first session of this year we're still years away from any real change. What if next time none of the officers have any fire experience? Are they going to wait 10 minutes for help or are they going to go in? It seems the general consensus is these officers did the right thing in this situation.

[Guest TOYBUFF911]

With more and more of this type of discussion being brought out, we have to ask what is being done about it? I agree that all police officers should recieve some type of awareness training especially in areas of volunteer fire service and when they are dispatched first. They already recieve first aid training because of the same situations. As far as SCBA'S no only specialized units in the PD with the proper training should have that equipment. The county fire service coordinator and police coordinator should listen to there chiefs and come up with some sort of 2-3 hour in service training course for the police and the police should come up with some sort of inservice awareness training on crime scenes and police operations. The fact of the matter is that if it is not pushed by front line members to there chiefs and then up the line it ends on websites and never develops into anything positive. A well developed and organized effort can effectively save lives and improve operational efforts on all ends. This will result in better service to the public.

Edited January 24, 2009 by TOYBUFF911

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I do, however, believe that Police Officers should be required to get HAZMAT Operational training if they are going to be issued level C suits as they are in CT.

[Guest TOYBUFF911]

All westchester police departments should have everyone completed by mid 2009

[Bnechis 3,961]

All westchester police departments should have everyone completed by mid 2009

Completed what?

[x635 4,066]

I think ny10570's point was proven this morning in Scarsdale, where a Police Officer rescued civilians from a house that was on fire secondary to a gas explosion.....he suffered smoke inhalation. Police officers, by nature of always being on the road, are often several minutes ahead of FD/EMS....sometimes they have to do what they have to do.

[Guest TOYBUFF911]

Completed what?

Law enforcement Haz-mat operations course

[gss131 212]

I think ny10570's point was proven this morning in Scarsdale, where a Police Officer rescued civilians from a house that was on fire secondary to a gas explosion.....he suffered smoke inhalation. Police officers, by nature of always being on the road, are often several minutes ahead of FD/EMS....sometimes they have to do what they have to do.

And its just possible any type of breathing device will give the PO a false sense of security and allow him to go in further than he would have without one.

[ny10570 745]

Then why do we give firefighters bunker gear? Doesn't the encapsulation give them a false sense of security and allow then to get hurt?