Injuries At Fires / Incidents

[huzzie59 75]

I'm sure injuries happen more often than they are reported to the media. So my question is, how are injuries reported? Yonkers, for example, had 5 injuries reported in the news at yesterdays fire. What is the criteria for "injuries"? Obviously something such as a broken arm counts, but does a cut finger get reported?

Some reports will quote some chief as stating the injuries were minor. What is considered minor?

[pasobuff 38]

I'm going to reply to the last part first - to me, a 'minor' injury is one that does NOT require transport to a hospital.

When I was active as a firefighter, if I received a minor cut (say from a shard of broken glass - not really needing a band-aid even) - I wouldn't bother reporting it. If it was something that required any type of medical attention, yes, it was reported.

As for your given example - that reminds me of a story I heard quite a few years ago.....that at a fire scene a certain person would go up to firefighters and 'instruct' them that they were 'injured'.......I never saw it myself -but heard it from more than one person.....this supposedly was done to bolster numbers and try to show that more staffing was needed etc......a Union issue.

[x129K 1,393]

As for your given example - that reminds me of a story I heard quite a few years ago.....that at a fire scene a certain person would go up to firefighters and 'instruct' them that they were 'injured'.......I never saw it myself -but heard it from more than one person.....this supposedly was done to bolster numbers and try to show that more staffing was needed etc......a Union issue.

Witnessed that many a time!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I'm going to reply to the last part first - to me, a 'minor' injury is one that does NOT require transport to a hospital.

When I was active as a firefighter, if I received a minor cut (say from a shard of broken glass - not really needing a band-aid even) - I wouldn't bother reporting it. If it was something that required any type of medical attention, yes, it was reported.

As for your given example - that reminds me of a story I heard quite a few years ago.....that at a fire scene a certain person would go up to firefighters and 'instruct' them that they were 'injured'.......I never saw it myself -but heard it from more than one person.....this supposedly was done to bolster numbers and try to show that more staffing was needed etc......a Union issue.

I had an instructor at my academy that use to ask at the end of each day:

"Is anyone hurt or injured?" If you raised your hand he would ask you...which one..hurt? or injured? When first asked what that meant he would say "If your hurt, you will heal and be back tomorrow." "If you injured, that means I have to file a report and your going to the hospital." Its still kind of a funny think I ask my students (see Roger you still influence me wherever you are) after most classes.

One thing that has to be kept in mind regarding injuries and reporting. Particularly in regard to the discussion of the "cut finger." The documentation is to protect you in the event something happens later. Just because you do report an injury of any kind doesn't mean you can't simply be treated on sight. Most times it may involve an RMA but you are still covered, you can still get further treatment and follow up through whatever you are covered under as career or volunteer firefighters and again down the road if something happens it is there. I believe the reporting requirement is 48 hours. A prime example of reporting the "cut finger" was the following LODD death from such:

Kistler Sr., Gary Wayne

Age: 65

Cause of Death: Other

Rank: Firefighter

Nature of Death: Other

Classification: Career

Emergency Duty: Yes

Incident Date: 01/28/2006

Duty Type: After

Incident Time: 22:00

Activity Type: Extrication

Death Date: 02/05/2006

Fixed Prop. Use: Street/Road

Initial Summary: Firefighter Kistler suffered a cut injury to a finger while working vehicle extrication at a motor vehicle accident involving a fatality. Kistler, a number of days later, after being treated by medical personnel for pain in the arm and back, died in the hospital from complications related to an infection of the injury.

Without proper documentation...it gives the ability for a denial of claim that you suffered the injury elsewhere and could put the responsibility solely on you and not to be able to get proper benefits for you family.

[pasobuff 38]

One thing that has to be kept in mind regarding injuries and reporting. Particularly in regard to the discussion of the "cut finger." The documentation is to protect you in the event something happens later. Just because you do report an injury of any kind doesn't mean you can't simply be treated on sight. Most times it may involve an RMA but you are still covered, you can still get further treatment and follow up through whatever you are covered under as career or volunteer firefighters and again down the road if something happens it is there. I believe the reporting requirement is 48 hours. A prime example of reporting the "cut finger" was the following LODD death from such:

Kistler Sr., Gary Wayne

Age: 65

Cause of Death: Other

Rank: Firefighter

Nature of Death: Other

Classification: Career

Emergency Duty: Yes

Incident Date: 01/28/2006

Duty Type: After

Incident Time: 22:00

Activity Type: Extrication

Death Date: 02/05/2006

Fixed Prop. Use: Street/Road

Initial Summary: Firefighter Kistler suffered a cut injury to a finger while working vehicle extrication at a motor vehicle accident involving a fatality. Kistler, a number of days later, after being treated by medical personnel for pain in the arm and back, died in the hospital from complications related to an infection of the injury.

Without proper documentation...it gives the ability for a denial of claim that you suffered the injury elsewhere and could put the responsibility solely on you and not to be able to get proper benefits for you family.

Very good point! It doesn't hurt to get something on paper that you received an injury - however slight. You may feel kind of dumb at the time reporting a tiny nick - but as illusteated above, you never know what might happen.

I think we all want to be 'macho'....and ignore those aches and pains and 'minor' cuts and scrapes.......been there. done that myself! Thankfully it hasn't come back to bite me in the rear.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

What do you do when you go the chief saying I got a cut or something and they say it does not warrant documentation?

[ajsbear 11]

I had an instructor at my academy that use to ask at the end of each day:

"Is anyone hurt or injured?" If you raised your hand he would ask you...which one..hurt? or injured? When first asked what that meant he would say "If your hurt, you will heal and be back tomorrow." "If you injured, that means I have to file a report and your going to the hospital." Its still kind of a funny think I ask my students (see Roger you still influence me wherever you are) after most classes.

One thing that has to be kept in mind regarding injuries and reporting. Particularly in regard to the discussion of the "cut finger." The documentation is to protect you in the event something happens later. Just because you do report an injury of any kind doesn't mean you can't simply be treated on sight. Most times it may involve an RMA but you are still covered, you can still get further treatment and follow up through whatever you are covered under as career or volunteer firefighters and again down the road if something happens it is there. I believe the reporting requirement is 48 hours. A prime example of reporting the "cut finger" was the following LODD death from such:

Kistler Sr., Gary Wayne

Age: 65

Cause of Death: Other

Rank: Firefighter

Nature of Death: Other

Classification: Career

Emergency Duty: Yes

Incident Date: 01/28/2006

Duty Type: After

Incident Time: 22:00

Activity Type: Extrication

Death Date: 02/05/2006

Fixed Prop. Use: Street/Road

Initial Summary: Firefighter Kistler suffered a cut injury to a finger while working vehicle extrication at a motor vehicle accident involving a fatality. Kistler, a number of days later, after being treated by medical personnel for pain in the arm and back, died in the hospital from complications related to an infection of the injury.

Without proper documentation...it gives the ability for a denial of claim that you suffered the injury elsewhere and could put the responsibility solely on you and not to be able to get proper benefits for you family.

Very good point T. Any injury should be reported as there may be complications later on. You never know, any cut can be cleaned and bandaged at the scene but how deep is it? Infection, blood poisoning on and on. The things you can be exposed to today. Got dust in your eye while overhauling, possible cornea injury? CYA.

[50-65 205]

Through personal experience, I can tell you that in our department, any injury, no matter how insignificant it may seem, that is reported, is included in the official incident/fire report. This also goes for any unusual occurances.

[jack10562 414]

What do you do when you go the chief saying I got a cut or something and they say it does not warrant documentation?

Your Chief should know better. ANY injury that happens "on-the-job" no matter how insignificant it may seem at the time, must be reported.

It may not even qualify for "first-Aid" and medical treatment can be refused "at this time" but it still needs to be recorded.

If something happens "down the road" as a result of the injury and it was not properly documented, Worker's Comp can refuse coverage, plus your own medical insurance might balk at paying claims. Then what?

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Here is another question, say you throw out or hurt your back while conducting operations but your back does not start hurting or bothering you until after operation have concluded and everyone has gone home, what do you do then?

[Bnechis 3,961]

What do you do when you go the chief saying I got a cut or something and they say it does not warrant documentation?

Write it up yourself. Include that the chief refused to document it. Place it in an envelop write across the seal the date, and sign it. Then mail it to yourself.

Do not open it, file it. If its ever an issue, you now have a document that because its sealed and the USPS cancelation dates it, its hard to be accused of making it up after the fact. It would be best to open it infront of witnesses when needed, even better is to open it in front of the lawyers, judge etc. if ever really needed.

[x129K 1,393]

Write it up yourself. Include that the chief refused to document it. Place it in an envelop write across the seal the date, and sign it. Then mail it to yourself.

Do not open it, file it. If its ever an issue, you now have a document that because its sealed and the USPS cancelation dates it, its hard to be accused of making it up after the fact. It would be best to open it infront of witnesses when needed, even better is to open it in front of the lawyers, judge etc. if ever really needed.

Bravo!

[helicopper 1,050]

What do you do when you go the chief saying I got a cut or something and they say it does not warrant documentation?

If a chief officer, in this day and age, is willing to take on that responsibility and liability and tell you you're not injured enough to warrant documentation first off he/she is crazy. Second, as bnechis and Jack said, document it yourself, followup with your own medical provider if necessary and in addition to mailing yourself the information (a great idea by the way), mail the same correspondence to your chief registered/return receipt and hold on to ALL of it!

You never know when or how you're going to need that information. Case in point, a member of my department contracted Hepatitis C during a prisoner transport many years before becoming symptomatic. Had there not be documentation at the time, he never would have been able to prove that it was job related.

[JM15 386]

There are many OSHA standards about the documentation of "injuries" and also many classifications of reported injuries. One of them including "first aid." Anything that requires an employee to miss work or be transferred to light duty aka a desk job should be automatically reported. On the first aid side anything that requires attention including a simple bandage should be reported. Especially in the emergency services where the risk for contracting a blood borne pathogen is present.

My oppinion would be that if the chief refuses to officially file a report then remind him of your rights as an employee. Then if he still refuses go over his head and tell him that you are. I'm sure he will change his mind then. If you feel that strongly about it you should fight for your rights. Thats how our country was founded.

[pasobuff 38]

Here is another question, say you throw out or hurt your back while conducting operations but your back does not start hurting or bothering you until after operation have concluded and everyone has gone home, what do you do then?

Good question!

I would say if the injury manifests itself within 24 hours of the incident, make sure it gets reported ASAP. And document, document document! After 24 hours, it gets harder to prove that it was job related, and also your memory could start to fade (although for some of us it starts to fade faster! )

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Here is another question, say you throw out or hurt your back while conducting operations but your back does not start hurting or bothering you until after operation have concluded and everyone has gone home, what do you do then?

The best answer anyone can give you is your department should have a policy that addresses the issue that you are raising. Additionally the questions you are raising are questions you need to be asking within the department you operate on for its their answer and procedure which will matter to you if the scenario(s) you raise occur. What anyone else will do isn't bad input, but they cannot answer for your specific agency. Good input yes...good for you to keep in the back of your mind...yes...replacement for asking your department "management" about...no.

Also as far as your back, most reporting requirements is 48 hours. If you feel you need treatment do not delay it. Try to contact the Chief or any officer you can even if you go through the dispatch agency for text messaging or even paged out to contact them via radio. Let them know what your status is in regard to the injury so they get the appropriate ball rolling for a work related injury.

[ex-commish 490]

If a chief officer, in this day and age, is willing to take on that responsibility and liability and tell you you're not injured enough to warrant documentation first off he/she is crazy. Second, as bnechis and Jack said, document it yourself, followup with your own medical provider if necessary and in addition to mailing yourself the information (a great idea by the way), mail the same correspondence to your chief registered/return receipt and hold on to ALL of it!

I would also send it to the AHD such as the board of commisioners, village board. etc. This way they too are put on notice.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

I seeking ideas on what other peoples policies or ideas regarding later developing, work related injuries were.....I have no specifics but when I have a chance, I will delineate the SOP/SOGs of my respective agency.

[JBE 328]

Take a mark, tap out if necessary, CYA!!!!!

[tonyc856 16]

Being that I done risk management for years, more so for your well being, ALL accidents and injuries need to be reported. But, not all accidents or injuries need to be reported to your insurance co (VFBL or Workers Comp). The only ones that should go there will be the 1^st aid cases. Those are defined in OSHA 1910.120. Those same cases need to be recorded on your OSHA/PESH log (900), which needs to be posted by the end of the month. This includes Vol. FD as well as career. It is a fineable offense if this log is not kept and not posted.

If you do not report it, many insurance companies can refused to pay or will delay making payments while they investigate the claim. It's also great help (such like the back problem that you stated), that if you fell at a fire scene and not hurting now, but later on the pain starts then it's easier to say the accident happened at that time and not at home.

One more thing needs to be said ..... if you are on workers comp or disability from work and you are a member of a vol fire company. DO NOT respond to calls, drills or anything eles. This will stop you claim and you may have to start paying back mony that has been paid for bills or to you. Also, don't go helping your neighbor rebuild his home when you have a back claim in. or any other claim in that you can't work. You never know when an insurance co has an investigator on the case.