Is it legal to shut down major highways during emergencies

[Guest EFFP411]

Since the posts have covered 20+ years of issues and multiple counties I pretty sure its not the same trooper. In twenty years, we have worked with many fine troopers and have gone for years without issue. We have also gone for periods with nothing but issues everytime we responded to I-95.

My most vivid image was as a newer FF. arriving at a fully involved vehicle fire in the left lane on a sharp curve and next to the jersey barrier (it probably was still a metal guard rail then) at 3am. My Lt. ordered the Left & Center lane blocked. The Trooper told him under no circumstances would he allow us to do that. So the LT. ordered us back on the rig & we left with the fire still ragging. We went to Exit 16 drove back down to Exit 15 via local streets and waited about 2 minutes till we were requested back. As we arrived a sargent pulled up and he was still yelling when we left.

This clearly clouded my image to the point that when a dozen years later and working a medic flycar in the opposite end of the county I was actually stunned to arrive at a man down in a Pvt dwelling, 2 troop cars in the driveway, and the Troopers were not sitting in their cars doing paperwork. I was even more stunned when I got inside and saw they were doing perfect CPR. I was so impressed I wrote a letter to the Troop HQ.

To this day I compare the 2 experiences and realize that there are excellent Troopers and there are ........., for some reason Troop T appears to have more of the latter over the years. Is there something different amout this Troop than the others?

I have experienced something similar to this recently as well, I was at work up in Rosendale and had been dispatched to a diff. breathing/chest pain in the far reaches of Kerhonkson(about 25 minutes from our station). When we arrived on scene, there was a trooper from Troop F on scene, not only was he inside the house, when I walked in the door, he had the Pt. on O2, and had a full report for us waiting. The Trooper was also an EMT for the local ambulance Corp. as well, and even had his own big medical bag in the patrol car! I can Honestly say it was the first time I has seen a trooper with a med bag, and probably the first time i had seen one doing something at a medical call besides asking resident information, and leaving... lol. Most of the time, if we ask them for help they will do whatever you need, but most of them are not medically trained so to speak, so will be a bit hesitant to do anything outside of what you ask of them. I was very pleased with that experience. I do not really know what the difference is with Troop T compared to any of the other Troops, but i will say that i have never had any problems with the others.....

Edited January 14, 2009 by EFFP411

[INIT915 1,119]

I have experienced something similar to this recently as well, I was at work up in Rosendale and had been dispatched to a diff. breathing/chest pain in the far reaches of Kerhonkson(about 25 minutes from our station). When we arrived on scene, there was a trooper from Troop F on scene, not only was he inside the house, when I walked in the door, he had the Pt. on O2, and had a full report for us waiting. The Trooper was also an EMT for the local ambulance Corp. as well, and even had his own big medical bag in the patrol car! I can Honestly say it was the first time I has seen a trooper with a med bag, and probably the first time i had seen one doing something at a medical call besides asking resident information, and leaving... lol. Most of the time, if we ask them for help they will do whatever you need, but most of them are not medically trained so to speak, so will be a bit hesitant to do anything outside of what you ask of them. I was very pleased with that experience. I do not really know what the difference is with Troop T compared to any of the other Troops, but i will say that i have never had any problems with the others.....

It sounds like your describing Tpr. K. Kesick, a longtime Paramedic/ER Nurse.

[helicopper 1,050]

As has been said many times in this thread already, it is not always the trooper (or PO) who is the one with the attitude/ego/selective hearing loss/etc.

I have heard of and witnessed cases where other emergency services acted just as inappropriately. If we want to make this thread a "once upon a time..." thread with stories about bad experiences with law enforcement brace yourselves for when the stories about your own pop up.

Glass houses, my friends, glass houses! Nobody is perfect and no agency is perfect either.

[JFLYNN 681]

As has been said many times in this thread already, it is not always the trooper (or PO) who is the one with the attitude/ego/selective hearing loss/etc.

I have heard of and witnessed cases where other emergency services acted just as inappropriately. If we want to make this thread a "once upon a time..." thread with stories about bad experiences with law enforcement brace yourselves for when the stories about your own pop up.

Glass houses, my friends, glass houses! Nobody is perfect and no agency is perfect either.

I agree Chris...these war stories are not productive...may I suggest that we all just qtip?

[firecoins 2]

I have seen prolems from fire departments. I have witnessed one young fire officer in charge respond to an incident on the Thruway in less than top form. I won't get into what less than top form means but you can imagine it didn't make him look to good for the other agencies involved.

I personally have never had a problem with the SP on the thruway. However I can believe the problems i have heard on the thread and elsewhere. I just hope not to encounter any problems myself.

Edited January 14, 2009 by firecoins

[Bnechis 3,961]

......there was a trooper from Troop F on scene,

Does anyone remember the commanding officer of F Troop.............It was Captain Wilton Parmenter, others may remember Sergeant Morgan O'Rourke or Corporal Randolph Agarn

"Look Up in the Sky it is Ballooooon"

[Guest EFFP411]

Does anyone remember the commanding officer of F Troop.............It was Captain Wilton Parmenter, others may remember Sergeant Morgan O'Rourke or Corporal Randolph Agarn

"Look Up in the Sky it is Ballooooon"

I guess I'm a little too young to understand this one, care to enlighten us Senior' Nechis?? It sounds like an interesting story...

[x129K 1,393]

I guess I'm a little too young to understand this one, care to enlighten us Senior' Nechis?? It sounds like an interesting story...

It was a reference to old black and white show on the talking picture box

[helicopper 1,050]

Does anyone remember the commanding officer of F Troop.............It was Captain Wilton Parmenter, others may remember Sergeant Morgan O'Rourke or Corporal Randolph Agarn

"Look Up in the Sky it is Ballooooon"

A whole lot of troopers in that!

But don't forget Chief Wild Eagle!

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Wow, ok here is my understanding based on the episodes that I have watched with my father but here it goes.

What Chris192 and Bnechis are talking about one of the first serial tv shows to aired. The show was called F Troop and is about an American Military Outpost in the West some times after the Civil War. It is supposed to be a comedy and it is quite funny. It features many famous lines, most obvious is "we're the Hekawis." That s it in a nut shell. I have left a lot out.

Here is a link to the wikipedia article about the show: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Troop

Its pretty good if you get a chance to watch it.

[Guest EFFP411]

Wow, ok here is my understanding based on the episodes that I have watched with my father but here it goes.

What Chris192 and Bnechis are talking about one of the first serial tv shows to aired. The show was called F Troop and is about an American Military Outpost in the West some times after the Civil War. It is supposed to be a comedy and it is quite funny. It features many famous lines, most obvious is "we're the Hekawis." That s it in a nut shell. I have left a lot out.

Here is a link to the wikipedia article about the show: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F_Troop

Its pretty good if you get a chance to watch it.

OOOOOOh, Ok. Sounds like it was interesting, but not my style....

[tdc202 0]

"Does anyone remember the commanding officer of F Troop.............It was Captain Wilton Parmenter, others may remember Sergeant Morgan O'Rourke or Corporal Randolph Agarn"

That should have been in the thread that was just going around about all the funny movies. what a classic show Loved it. I used to fake being sick from school once in awhile just to see that show

[jack10562 414]

.....Great memories.....What the Hekawi discussing, anyway ...

By the way, it was Sergeant Morgan Sylvester O'Rourke...

[crcocr1 8]

Great theme song to it too (watched it on re-runs)

[Tanker 10eng 140]

WOW !!!! you guys are scaring me, you know all the guys, what about Wrangler Jane ???

[ckroll 101]

WOW !!!! you guys are scaring me, you know all the guys, what about Wrangler Jane ???

Car 54 where are you?, at least it's on topic.

[Stench60 29]

Tootie and Muldoon are out looking for the Burglar of Banffffffff....

[edisonfire 4]

Regarding the closing of lane(s), a direction or entire highway at the scene of an MVA, Haz-Mat or fire, things can and do escalate. In 2006, in Morris County NJ on I-80 a Rockaway Twp deputy chief was arrested, transported to state pd barracks and held for two hours for failure to obey a trooper. The chauffeur was also ticketed. A link is attached below for the full story.

While I see both points as to keeping traffic flowing and the safety of emergency personnel operating, I'll add this one caveat. When the fire department or EMS is operating at a fire, MVA with injuries etc, time is of the essence for patient care/future return to health of the injured. We don't want to be on the highway any longer than necessary, but while there we don't want to become part of the original accident.

The caveat being it may be a closure of 5-15 minutes that is the low and high side of an incident. Yes, traffic backs up fast and lasts long after the scene is clear of any evidence that an MVA or fire ever occurred. If in fact an accident goes fatal or multi-fatal, the troopers will shut lanes or the highway for an extended period while an accident reconstruction team goes about their collection of evidence, photographs, and measurements.

If the incident was or becomes a crime scene, {someone tossing rocks off an overpass onto windshields below, a sniper incident, a police pursuit terminating in a crash, are but a few examples} the troopers will shut down that roadway for an extended time period. It does seem in these instances to be somewhat hypocritical what is permissible and what is refused. I applaud the IC mentioned in a prior posting that responded to a truck full of tires that was on fire when ordered to move fire equipment {which might lead to emergency personnel injury going unseen, and further MVA's as there isn't a much darker smoke that when tires are on fire} that he pulled his equipment and crews off the highway and told the trooper to put the fire out with his baton. The tires were never going to be sold, the truck was likely going to be totalled, no firefighters were injured and the trooper had his highway back, although maybe not as he wanted it.

http://forums.firehouse.com/archive/index.php/t-85761.html

[helicopper 1,050]

Regarding the closing of lane(s), a direction or entire highway at the scene of an MVA, Haz-Mat or fire, things can and do escalate. In 2006, in Morris County NJ on I-80 a Rockaway Twp deputy chief was arrested, transported to state pd barracks and held for two hours for failure to obey a trooper. The chauffeur was also ticketed. A link is attached below for the full story.

While I see both points as to keeping traffic flowing and the safety of emergency personnel operating, I'll add this one caveat. When the fire department or EMS is operating at a fire, MVA with injuries etc, time is of the essence for patient care/future return to health of the injured. We don't want to be on the highway any longer than necessary, but while there we don't want to become part of the original accident.

The caveat being it may be a closure of 5-15 minutes that is the low and high side of an incident. Yes, traffic backs up fast and lasts long after the scene is clear of any evidence that an MVA or fire ever occurred. If in fact an accident goes fatal or multi-fatal, the troopers will shut lanes or the highway for an extended period while an accident reconstruction team goes about their collection of evidence, photographs, and measurements.

If the incident was or becomes a crime scene, {someone tossing rocks off an overpass onto windshields below, a sniper incident, a police pursuit terminating in a crash, are but a few examples} the troopers will shut down that roadway for an extended time period. It does seem in these instances to be somewhat hypocritical what is permissible and what is refused. I applaud the IC mentioned in a prior posting that responded to a truck full of tires that was on fire when ordered to move fire equipment {which might lead to emergency personnel injury going unseen, and further MVA's as there isn't a much darker smoke that when tires are on fire} that he pulled his equipment and crews off the highway and told the trooper to put the fire out with his baton. The tires were never going to be sold, the truck was likely going to be totalled, no firefighters were injured and the trooper had his highway back, although maybe not as he wanted it.

http://forums.firehouse.com/archive/index.php/t-85761.html

Thank you for bringing this thread back on topic. The case to which you refer in Morris County, NJ has been discussed here exhaustively (links below).

As for closing the road, I think we all agree that when necessary it is appropriate - as in any of the significant investigatory examples provided above - but to close the road "because we can" or to close lanes just because we're on the highway can in many cases be excessive. I don't think that there is a simple rule that can be followed, we have to take the totality of the circumstances and make an informed decision for each accident, location, weather conditions, highway access, etc and communicate with each other so we know what's going on with all the agencies having jurisdiction on scene.

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=14901&hl=

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=14949&hl=

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=15870&hl=

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=16185&hl=

[JFLYNN 681]

Thank you for bringing this thread back on topic. The case to which you refer in Morris County, NJ has been discussed here exhaustively (links below).

As for closing the road, I think we all agree that when necessary it is appropriate - as in any of the significant investigatory examples provided above - but to close the road "because we can" or to close lanes just because we're on the highway can in many cases be excessive. I don't think that there is a simple rule that can be followed, we have to take the totality of the circumstances and make an informed decision for each accident, location, weather conditions, highway access, etc and communicate with each other so we know what's going on with all the agencies having jurisdiction on scene.

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=14901&hl=

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=14949&hl=

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=15870&hl=

http://www.emtbravo.net/index.php?showtopic=16185&hl=

That's the whole point Chris...while I agree with many points that have been made on this topic regarding scene safety, etc., and also that many points have been made regarding egos, arrogance, rudeness and power issues on BOTH sides of the fence.

However, on the Fire / EMS side, I believe we are sometimes too reactive to a Trooper or Police Officer who is on scene or who arrives on scene and attempts to do what he is trained to do- take control. Sometimes (not normally), this Trooper or Officer may not be so tactful...so what? Get over it and qtip...It's not about your hurt feelings...As Professionals we must become detached from our emotions while at the scene- if anyone, whether Law Enforcement, EMS, Tow Truck Operator, bystander, etc. is rude to us, or attempts to give us innappropriate or unlawful orders- JUST IGNORE THEM...don't escalate the situation...believe me I am a master at smiling at an excited Police Officer who is barking orders at me and just continuing to do my job and speaking calmly...I wasn't always this way...the first few times I was treated shabbily by Law Enforcement at the scene, I let my emotions show, and / or argued with them. This quickly becomes a lose / lose for all involved.

Very, very, very rarely will law enforcement physically force you to move an apparatus or stop you from putting it where you want it, nor will they physically restrain you from performing the extrication / disentanglement/ firefighting/ EMS the way you see fit. If the PD is excited or pissed off or on a power trip and is yelling at you, just do your job and ignore them until they either go away or calm down enough to have a reasonable discussion.

[16fire5 693]

Very, very, very rarely will law enforcement physically force you to move an apparatus or stop you from putting it where you want it, nor will they physically restrain you from performing the extrication / disentanglement/ firefighting/ EMS the way you see fit. If the PD is excited or pissed off or on a power trip and is yelling at you, just do your job and ignore them until they either go away or calm down enough to have a reasonable discussion.

Keeping your cool and acting like a professional is the key. In my experience in the rare instances you have an agitated police officer as long as you are not baited into raising your voice and loseing your cool it makes it nearly impossible for the officer to take action against you. I don't think qtip was any more fitting than here. Be a professional and do what is right for the patient and most importantly for the safety of you and the other responders. Things get blurred when your trying to get your tool in first or make sure your agency asserts its authority. Also it's about 15 degrees outside right now so when you go to your next accident which 99 times out of 100 won't involve any problems invite the officer back to your warm firehouse where there's always a pot of coffee on to do his report. Amazing how something little like that will help you in the future both on and off duty.

[post4031 16]

That's the whole point Chris...while I agree with many points that have been made on this topic regarding scene safety, etc., and also that many points have been made regarding egos, arrogance, rudeness and power issues on BOTH sides of the fence.

However, on the Fire / EMS side, I believe we are sometimes too reactive to a Trooper or Police Officer who is on scene or who arrives on scene and attempts to do what he is trained to do- take control. Sometimes (not normally), this Trooper or Officer may not be so tactful...so what? Get over it and qtip...It's not about your hurt feelings...As Professionals we must become detached from our emotions while at the scene- if anyone, whether Law Enforcement, EMS, Tow Truck Operator, bystander, etc. is rude to us, or attempts to give us innappropriate or unlawful orders- JUST IGNORE THEM...don't escalate the situation...believe me I am a master at smiling at an excited Police Officer who is barking orders at me and just continuing to do my job and speaking calmly...I wasn't always this way...the first few times I was treated shabbily by Law Enforcement at the scene, I let my emotions show, and / or argued with them. This quickly becomes a lose / lose for all involved.

Very, very, very rarely will law enforcement physically force you to move an apparatus or stop you from putting it where you want it, nor will they physically restrain you from performing the extrication / disentanglement/ firefighting/ EMS the way you see fit. If the PD is excited or pissed off or on a power trip and is yelling at you, just do your job and ignore them until they either go away or calm down enough to have a reasonable discussion.

Haven't visited this thread in a while. There have been many points that I do and don't agree with. I do always try and promote a progessive, cooperative attitude. It is very frustrating to have these types of issues and personalities on an emergency scene, especially when you have personnel in harm's way and a job to do. I don't believe it is an individual problem more a group problem since it surrounds Troop T. Anyway, good advice!

[ny10570 745]

http://www.Break.com/index/semi-jack-knife...fire-truck.html

Vests, blue lights, LEDs, strobes, rotators, chevrons, or anything else you can think of to add to a scene are never going to be anywhere near as effective as proper apparatus placement. Since we cannot close every road we have to operate on you need to make sure you have enough blocking especially, but not limited to foul weather.

Sorry to bring up this well trodden thread, but in this video if that police car is the only warning before the accident scene its remarkably better than what is done at the scene of most minor MVAs. The cars are not flying by, and appear to be traveling at a very reasonable speed for the conditions. The initial scene appears to out of the lane of traffic and on the median yet they still took the left lane as an added buffer.