I must apologize

[Firefighter57 0]

I must apologize from my self foremost and my co-worker secondly. From my self first off for apparently not logging out of my EMTbravo account at work and secondly for my co-worker. It seems to me in an unfortunate case of misguidance that their lack of college education and GED high school education has left them with little to no maturity and an even worse vocabulary as well as the grammar of a middle school aged teenager. I for one did not realize that they could spell their own names no less EMTbravo. Not that it matters but i have actually been with the fire department for 4 years now, seen numerous fires, and am halfway done with a BS (bachelor of sciences) in fire science and occupational safety. But enough airing my own dirty laundry and misfortune of high jacked pass words.

They bring up a good point. Firefighting isn't for everyone and in many situations i do feel like if you are not scared every once in a while, you should not be (in the case of a building fire) inside the building (or at least i don't want you in with me). This is for the simple fact that if you have no fear/no limits, you will have not respect for the dangers of our job. I am sure many would agree that a lack of respect for the dangers and really the job itself would put ones self and ones crew in serious danger.

Anyways, again i am sorry again for the post...

Original post so we can continue the discussion.

"I am a junior member of my fire dept, and would like to know what its like in a real fire? I have been in the smoke house for fire prevention and its not really to intense. What should I look for? One time I got really nervous and had a anxiety attack when we were training but thats because they taped my scott mask so that I couldnt see. maybe im not cut out but i would like to give it a whirl.

If anyone can give me tips or pointer please help me out"

Edited January 10, 2009 by Firefighter57

[EFFD4091-MLSS emt 13]

Well 1st and foremost - it is def equivalent to having a taped mask in the sense that you sometimes cant see the hand in front of your face. 2nd You can feel the heat and as you get experienced it helps you to determine how the fire is acting... there is soo much more though...

[JFLYNN 681]

I am a junior member of my fire dept, and would like to know what its like in a real fire? I have been in the smoke house for fire prevention and its not really to intense. What should I look for? One time I got really nervous and had a anxiety attack when we were training but thats because they taped my scott mask so that I couldnt see. maybe im not cut out but i would like to give it a whirl.

If anyone can give me tips or pointer please help me out

I think you should Private Message R1Smokeater with this question. I am sure he will be a big help.

He is a real salty veteran now but once upon a time he was just like you.

Good luck and stay safe.

P.S. Please give him my regards and tell him that I would have preferred Luke Skywalker or at least Obi-Wan-Kenobi.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

First, don't get overly concerned about the anxiety you experienced during training with the SCBA. This isn't an uncommon event for a large majority of newer personnel and it can even still happen to experienced firefighters from time to time if the right stressors are present to trigger such an event. You just as a very high percentage of others can overcome the anxiety, completely rid yourself of it or learn how to cope with it when it occurs very effectively. A lot of it comes with having the right people to know how to work with you to achieve this and step you into the use of the respirator. Was this the first time you had ever worn the device? Or was it the first time your vision was every blocked? Also I'm not nitpicking, but you did state you were an explorer so I'm assuming you have not completed a FF 1 course. I am not a fan of anyone donning a SCBA if they have not received proper or appropriate training on its components, functions and as stated, effective ways in which you work your way into the environments you will encounter in the future. In the event that you still continue to have problems, please feel free to contact me. I will work with you personally if you are local to the Westchester/Putnam/Dutchess area and also have other instructors and contacts who would also. A couple of things I can tell you on here to help you:

1. Wear the device! Do some normal things while wearing it around the station. Clean the floor, wash dishes, read a book, wash an apparatus. A method I use is to put the person in a very dark room. Just sit there, move around, get used to having your arms out stretched around you. Depending on the comfort level is where the next step begins to build their confidence. If you still have problems with this, do it while someone is in the room talking to you and after that find a voice in your head, sing a song anything again that you train yourself to do to cope with it. Get a couple 1/2" by around 4" threaded bolts and nuts that fit them. Toss them in the room or have someone put them in there. Find both and take the time to put them together. You will overload your brain to do this higher brain function and the anxiety will take a bit of a back seat and continually doing this will allow you to get used to the reduction in visibility and learn your brain to worry about your assignment and not the mask. Its not about whether you cut out to do it. Its about introducing the experience to your brain because it has never before. It is searching for a answer of how to deal with your anxiety but until you experience it, you will not have an answer and your brain will induce fear which then manifests itself as anxiety and panic.

2. Breathing technique. This is a technique that was taught to me in the military and law enforcement. It assists in allowing you to stay focused mentally as well as reducing some of the flight or fight responses and adrenaline that is caused by either excitement or fear/anxiety. Which if it goes unchecked results in irrational decisions, like pulling off your mask and also causes a reduction in your fine and/or complex motor skills which is not good in our business, particularly with a device like SCBA's with the buckles and knobs needed for manuevers and function. Its pretty simple but takes time to hone and be able to do correctly and comfortably, especially if your breathing heavy. 1. Breath in for 4 seconds 2. Hold for 4 seconds 3. Exhale for 4 seconds 4. Hold for 4 seconds then repeat the process. It will calm you down, gives you...again...something else to focus on and helps counteract the physiological processes of fear/anxiety.

Secondly as far as a "real" fire. I don't know how to explain it. Its kind of like snowflakes they aren't always entirely the same. You'll remember the first time you see things that you've only seen in training, hopefully things like the indicators of flashover so you do not get up close and personal with one. Sometimes you'll be able to see the fire great...other times you won't see anything but you'll hear it and feel where the heat is coming from. You'll remember the first time you take a good blast of steam and when you may not have paid attention when donning your PPE and you didn't get something just right. Sometimes the heat level is comfortable...others it lets you know it wants to win. It honestly is about one of the most exciting things you can do with your clothes on.

Edited January 9, 2009 by alsfirefighter

[ex-commish 490]

I am a junior member of my fire dept, and would like to know what its like in a real fire? I have been in the smoke house for fire prevention and its not really to intense. What should I look for? One time I got really nervous and had a anxiety attack when we were training but thats because they taped my scott mask so that I couldnt see. maybe im not cut out but i would like to give it a whirl.

If anyone can give me tips or pointer please help me out

First, don't rule yourself out because you were nervous wearing the mask for the first time. I myself was also nervous my first and also a few times. Like anything else it comes with experience and patience. Good luck !!!

[NWFDMedic 58]

I am a junior member of my fire dept, and would like to know what its like in a real fire? I have been in the smoke house for fire prevention and its not really to intense. What should I look for? One time I got really nervous and had a anxiety attack when we were training but thats because they taped my scott mask so that I couldnt see. maybe im not cut out but i would like to give it a whirl.

If anyone can give me tips or pointer please help me out

Others have said this, definitely don't be worried about the anxiety. Understand that it happened and try to control it in the controlled environments. Remember these methods because you might need to use the same ones when you get to that "uncontrolled" environment. The post by ALSfirefighter was a great one with some great training ideas. I don't care how much you train, there is still going to be that situation that makes you anxious; controlling it is the key.

Honestly, I'm 34 years old and have been wearing SCBA since I was 16 and the blacked out mask still gets to me. Even in the worst fire conditions, there is some light or at least some indicators of your position and goals. Being in a training environment where you don't get to sense the movements of air, the density of the smoke, the presence or absence of objects, the heat of fire or lack of heat in escape areas, and the sound of the fire can be more difficult for some than actual fire situations.

[x129K 1,393]

ALS....Yet another post that shows just what an assett to emergency services you are...

I am sitting here reading doing the breathing technique...

[markmets415 524]

ALS....Yet another post that shows just what an assett to emergency services you are...

I am sitting here reading doing the breathing technique...

I second this one Dan, thanks ALS, man that was a great read, the next question is you said you would come to Dutchess, are you available to assist us as a group on some training this spring. You can PM me if interested. I know Dan would welcome this as well.

[x129K 1,393]

H e's closer than you think Mark.

[markmets415 524]

H e's closer than you think Mark.

ok how close is close like close like me and you close? Did you follow that one!

I just went by the location as Westchester.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Well 1st and foremost - it is def equivalent to having a taped mask in the sense that you sometimes cant see the hand in front of your face. 2nd You can feel the heat and as you get experienced it helps you to determine how the fire is acting... there is soo much more though...

So you've heard, right Anthony??

[Guest alsfirefighter]

LOL. Some things are not what they always appear to be grasshopper! I can tell you don't or haven't read some of the EMS posts on the board. If you did/do you'll know exactly where I live and where I am a member. I work and instruct in Westchester and just have always used that as a location. But then again we're even. I didn't know anything with the name Wassaic until you started posting.

PM me and I'll give you my email address and we can talk about what your looking for or what you might be interested in.

ALS....Yet another post that shows just what an assett to emergency services you are...

I am sitting here reading doing the breathing technique...

I appreciate that brother. But to be honest I definitely don't have all the answers and I'm the same as most of you on here and in the service. I just constantly strive for more information, more understanding of what I'm experiencing and I consistently read. But I do appreciate that compliment although I can say there is a 4.5 square mile island in Westchester County that would probably argue against you.

I've posted this on here before, but if you want to know more about tactical breathing and the effects of increased heart rate in regard to brain function and motor control, "On Killing" by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman is an awesome read and I call required reading for any tactical medic.

Also "The Bullet Proof Mind" and "Deadly Force Encounters" are excellent also. It deals primarily in content about police and some military operations the parallels are clear to me and are things many of us do not think about. I just like be able to bring some of my education and knowledge of psychology and the physiological interaction of our body and then put it together with our operations and training.

Edited January 9, 2009 by alsfirefighter

[Guest]

I second this one Dan, thanks ALS, man that was a great read, the next question is you said you would come to Dutchess, are you available to assist us as a group on some training this spring. You can PM me if interested. I know Dan would welcome this as well.

If this Happens keep us in mind

[xfirefighter484x 234]

I can't say enough good things about alsfirefighter. He has been an "unofficial" mentor to me, and has always passed along wonderful advice, and phrased it in such a way, that he could be calling you a retard for something you did, but you don't feel bad (either that or just don't know he is callin' you a tard) !!

Tom is good people, always willing to lend a hand, and a wealth of information!!

[Guest]

Great post ALSFF ! I can tell from reading your reply that you are a great instructor. Good job!

[ckroll 101]

2. Breathing technique. This is a technique that was taught to me in the military and law enforcement. It assists in allowing you to stay focused mentally as well as reducing some of the flight or fight responses and adrenaline that is caused by either excitement or fear/anxiety. Which if it goes unchecked results in irrational decisions, like pulling off your mask and also causes a reduction in your fine and/or complex motor skills which is not good in our business, particularly with a device like SCBA's with the buckles and knobs needed for manuevers and function. Its pretty simple but takes time to hone and be able to do correctly and comfortably, especially if your breathing heavy. 1. Breath in for 4 seconds 2. Hold for 4 seconds 3. Exhale for 4 seconds 4. Hold for 4 seconds then repeat the process. It will calm you down, gives you...again...something else to focus on and helps counteract the physiological processes of fear/anxiety.

Very good grasshopper......... Excellent indeed and a variation on what has been taught in Buddhist monasteries for a couple thousand years. Focusing on the breath is key to meditation practice.

Mindfulness is something else that might be of benefit to the young fire fighter. It is described in the parable of the snake in the shed. A person walks into a dark shed and sees a large black snake coiled in the corner. Instinctively he grabs a shovel and beats it t pieces....only to discover it was a coil of rope.

There are considered to be 5 attributes of awareness ---- form, feeling, perception, consciousness and action.

In the case of the coils, the individual became aware of a form--- narrow coils. Then he perceived it to be a snake. A snake is dangerous, it causes feeling of fear and hatred. His brain said, do something! kill it! He took action, he beat it to pieces. It all happens so fast in the mind that we sense things, take action, without a full understanding.

As a meditation practice, think about something fearful or bothersome, say a terrible thunderstorm, a barking dog. Then ask yourself what exactly it is and why bothers you. In the case of a face mask or a live burn, it's dark, there are flames, we've heard scary stories..... but that also describes an evening campfire, one of the nicest things on earth. If it is the lack of sensory input, then some people live all their lives with sensory impairment and they live without fear. If it is the fear of not knowing where you are or what is out there, maybe getting lost, then focus on those things. In a burning building, you will be blind, you will not know what is out there and if you do not pay attention you will get lost. Focus on the sensory input you have, pay attention to all your clues, pay close attention to where you are and how you move. One of the huge reasons to do things that are dangerous is that it makes you focus on what matters. There is nothing like the prospect of your own life in the balance to sharpen the mind.

That said, if you are not emotionally affected by the dangers of fire fighting you shouldn't be doing it. It is dangerous and must be respected. Acknowledge the fear, examine it, but don't let it own you. You show a healthy respect for fire fighting and you ask questions. It sounds to me like you could make an excellent fire fighter.

[oilflame 0]

{Also I'm not nitpicking, but you did state you were an explorer so I'm assuming you have not completed a FF 1 course. I am not a fan of anyone donning a SCBA if they have not received proper or appropriate training on its components, functions and as stated, effective ways in which you work your way into the environments you will encounter in the future. }

Iam not Disagreing with you but us as JRS and Explorers we spend months on scbas and how they work so that we do not freek out when we go a do mask confidence or Search ans rescue. iam not looking for a disagreement i just wanted to say that even throght we dont have ff1 we can still know the proper way to don on an scba.

Brendan

CAPT. HFD JRS

[Guest alsfirefighter]

First, immature or not it wasn't actually a bad post and it seemed more honest then anything and I enjoyed trying to answer it. I wish you kept a portion of it so others might see that first post and still have read along or chimed in was some more things we can all learn from and use when conducting training.

{Also I'm not nitpicking, but you did state you were an explorer so I'm assuming you have not completed a FF 1 course. I am not a fan of anyone donning a SCBA if they have not received proper or appropriate training on its components, functions and as stated, effective ways in which you work your way into the environments you will encounter in the future. }

Iam not Disagreeing with you but us as JRS and Explorers we spend months on scbas and how they work so that we do not freek out when we go a do mask confidence or Search ans rescue. iam not looking for a disagreement i just wanted to say that even throght we dont have ff1 we can still know the proper way to don on an scba.

Brendan

CAPT. HFD JRS

You make your opinion very well in this post Brenden. Don't back down by saying you don't want a disagreement when you did such a fine job laying out why you feel the way you do about it. Besides you already did disagree by posting along.

Go back to my post again and you'll see I never said you shouldn't. All I said was I wasn't a fan of it. And in some cases I would and probably could base this on OSHA respiratory protection standard. Does your department fit test their junior firefighters or explorers? Who is the person delivering your "training" on the device and what are their credentials to do so? Where are they getting their information from and what is it based on? For example if I were to ask all your fellow juniors or explorers this question: "When your low air alarm (vibra alert) activates...how much air to you have remaining?" or "When your low air alarm (vibra alert) ceases to function...how much air do you then have left?"

My experience as an instructor is that a large majority of students of all walks...those who walked in the door and those who were juniors or explorers can not accurately answer those questions. And the answers will depend on who gave you the information on the device, where they got that information from...manufacturer or word of mouth, etc. OSHA has regulations on who should be delivering in service training. It also requires that you be adequately trained on the device. I'm not pointing out anything about your specific department, so don't take it personal, but stating some generalities. And just another quick point...what happens if one of you does freak out before doing all the above things you mentioned?

[oilflame 0]

you are very right with your points. the people that are teaching use are reg fire fighter that are so called advisors. if some one does freek out durring a drill or any time using an scba there is alwas people around in the biulding we are drilling in.

there are still ting we need to work onthat i want to do being CAPT of the jrs that now i want to work on about the scba and i would also like to thank you for bring up the vib alert and knowing how much aiir you have left know i know we will have more to go over becuse if you asked my fellow jrs i bet mabe a few will know

and i wish that we would fit test but were thought of par of the dept and half not part and the dept would proble not wana pay to fit test non interior guys

thanks Brendan

Edited January 10, 2009 by oilflame

[Guest]

Others have said this, definitely don't be worried about the anxiety. Understand that it happened and try to control it in the controlled environments. Remember these methods because you might need to use the same ones when you get to that "uncontrolled" environment. The post by ALSfirefighter was a great one with some great training ideas. I don't care how much you train, there is still going to be that situation that makes you anxious; controlling it is the key.

Honestly, I'm 34 years old and have been wearing SCBA since I was 16 and the blacked out mask still gets to me. Even in the worst fire conditions, there is some light or at least some indicators of your position and goals. Being in a training environment where you don't get to sense the movements of air, the density of the smoke, the presence or absence of objects, the heat of fire or lack of heat in escape areas, and the sound of the fire can be more difficult for some than actual fire situations.

Another tip I give to students while training with blacked out masks is just to close their eyes completely. What you want to try to do is use your mind's eye to paint the picture of your surroundings based on everything but visual cues. Doing this is a skill that takes lots of initial AND ongoing practice. The advantage of honing this skill is that you will have better situational awareness of where you are in a fire building when it is "lights out" conditions. If you have this picture in your head of where you are, you have less chance of becoming disoriented.

Another advantage to closing your eyes is that it can be calming in stressful situations, such as crawling around a smoke filled room. If you have your eyes open and looking, and are a bit worked up from anxiety, your mind may start playing tricks on you, you may see things that arent there.

I learned these tips while working with an instructor who teaches rapid deployment search and rescue dive teams, but feel they apply to structural firefighting as well.

[tracdoc 1]

It's interesting how someone’s password being hijacked and a malicious post can actually turn into a good topic.

[eckyphats 0]

this thread confuses me greatly

but there are some great replies with good info here

Edited January 10, 2009 by eckyphats

[Guest alsfirefighter]

this thread confuses me greatly

but there are some great replies with good info here

What's confusing about it? Fill us in and maybe we can clear something up for you.

Blacking out Mask I put that in bold so anyone reading this thread knows its something I don't think has been touched on yet. I see often during drills and such firefighters who have their protective hoods placed over their heads and over the mask. Always keep in mind that you want to train the way you are going to operate. The hood belongs on their head so they consistently put it on and don it correctly and efficiently. If you need to obscure the mask, wax paper is good, regular white paper will work if you make a template and cut it out to the shape of the interior of the mask. After a good friend and instructor was using an insert he made himself out of those flimsy plastic file folders you find in office supply stores, I also started using them, which worked out well. They are opaque like the wax paper so it makes it seem like dense light colored smoke and they are also reusable which is a plus (as long as you get them back..grrrr) I got about 4 out of one file folder which are not relatively expensive. Keep the hoods where they belong. On your head. Not over your face.

Edited January 10, 2009 by alsfirefighter

[EFFD4091-MLSS emt 13]

HAHAHA very funny Nate Its not my fault as of late I am always workin or I am on the tanker or at the station by myself.... or got stuck doin 72... but there will be more nd i will get back in...... lmao

[DonMoose 3]

What's confusing about it? Fill us in and maybe we can clear something up for you.

Blacking out Mask I put that in bold so anyone reading this thread knows its something I don't think has been touched on yet. I see often during drills and such firefighters who have their protective hoods placed over their heads and over the mask. Always keep in mind that you want to train the way you are going to operate. The hood belongs on their head so they consistently put it on and don it correctly and efficiently. If you need to obscure the mask, wax paper is good, regular white paper will work if you make a template and cut it out to the shape of the interior of the mask. After a good friend and instructor was using an insert he made himself out of those flimsy plastic file folders you find in office supply stores, I also started using them, which worked out well. They are opaque like the wax paper so it makes it seem like dense light colored smoke and they are also reusable which is a plus (as long as you get them back..grrrr) I got about 4 out of one file folder which are not relatively expensive. Keep the hoods where they belong. On your head. Not over your face.

ALSFF, you're a wealth of information, I always learn something new from your posts. Too bad I didn't have you as an instructor yet. In my FF1 class we used the hood method, and to be honest it was nerve racking the first time because it was pitch black. I know that's the point, but as you said the wax paper produces the effect of smoke, and some light can penetrate so you at least know if you're near a window/door etc. Aside from the hood / wax paper, 'GLAD Press and Seal' works well, and its easily removable.

Edited January 11, 2009 by DonMoose

[Raz 14]

What's confusing about it? Fill us in and maybe we can clear something up for you.

Blacking out Mask I put that in bold so anyone reading this thread knows its something I don't think has been touched on yet. I see often during drills and such firefighters who have their protective hoods placed over their heads and over the mask. Always keep in mind that you want to train the way you are going to operate. The hood belongs on their head so they consistently put it on and don it correctly and efficiently. If you need to obscure the mask, wax paper is good, regular white paper will work if you make a template and cut it out to the shape of the interior of the mask. After a good friend and instructor was using an insert he made himself out of those flimsy plastic file folders you find in office supply stores, I also started using them, which worked out well. They are opaque like the wax paper so it makes it seem like dense light colored smoke and they are also reusable which is a plus (as long as you get them back..grrrr) I got about 4 out of one file folder which are not relatively expensive. Keep the hoods where they belong. On your head. Not over your face.

We usually agree, but I've always liked completely blacking out a mask (with a bag or hood, not by reversing your personal nomex hood). You'll always get a little visibility in a fire, so training without that will further hone the skills that you're looking to sharpen in a mask confidence course. I know it's not exactly training as you operate, but it forces you to sharpen your peripheral senses (the kind you're going to depend on more and more as a fire gets worse). Think of it like wearing a weight vest while working out, or those guys that train at high altitudes and then kill the competition in sports. If you train for the worst possible scenario, most of the stuff you'll run into seems par for the course.

Just my opinion, I'm not a teacher or anything.