Adding Officers To Peekskill FD Career Staff

[Guest]

Like I said last night it was good to see the restructure of the firematic officers in Peekskill. Congratulations to those elected. Now that that change has been made, I would like to know when they will be adding officers to the career staff(Capt. & Lieut.). Officers have been long overdue rather than the ridiculous and demeaning titles of shift supervisors. It is time that the well being and safety of the tax paying residents of the city are thought about rather than the feelings of a few members of the Fire Department. It's time to stop the B.S. politics and do whats right for the Citizens.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Like I said last night it was good to see the restructure of the firematic officers in Peekskill. Congratulations to those elected. Now that that change has been made, I would like to know when they will be adding officers to the career staff(Capt. & Lieut.). Officers have been long overdue rather than the ridiculous and demeaning titles of shift supervisors. It is time that the well being and safety of the tax paying residents of the city are thought about rather than the feelings of a few members of the Fire Department. It's time to stop the B.S. politics and do whats right for the Citizens.

If you feel that way then it should be addressed with the command staff and the city. When your next contract is up maybe you should all band together under good faith to discuss with the town and the command staff about establishing a set of officers for the career division. Make sure that all the logistics are in place and go for it. Since this would be an obvious change you have to get the local involved. Any way you look at it as well, if you have line officers, there is still one that will be the "shift commander" for the platoon. I can understand why you think that "shift supervisor" is demeaning because it has no firematic value to it. Also, with all your job title and descriptions have to changed, re-worded and accepted by both sides. This is something that will not happen over night. If its discussed properly by all those involved with the department who will be affect, not by anyone here on this board, then changes will happen.

[Guest]

Do not know much about paid ff but even if you have a paid Capt or LT is the volunteer Chief still in charge at the scene??

Just asking trying to clear the mental picture in my head

[Guest]

Do not know much about paid ff but even if you have a paid Capt or LT is the volunteer Chief still in charge at the scene??

Just asking trying to clear the mental picture in my head

I know my dept. is still completely volunteer (we are truly few and far between), but I also ride with another local corps, and they have paid members that are officers, and the chief is still in charge, since they are elected into the position of power, and it is a higher office than that of Capt. or Lt. Paid/volley status does not change the level of authority given to a position as I have seen in practice.

Then again, this could all be different based on what organization we are talking about, but I hope that helps.

[Guest]

I know my dept. is still completely volunteer (we are truly few and far between), but I also ride with another local corps, and they have paid members that are officers, and the chief is still in charge, since they are elected into the position of power, and it is a higher office than that of Capt. or Lt. Paid/volley status does not change the level of authority given to a position as I have seen in practice.

Then again, this could all be different based on what organization we are talking about, but I hope that helps.

Thanks like you im volley and this is what i thought was the case chain of command is chain of command

[Raz 14]

Izzy, SEJ28 isn't a career ff in Peekskill (as far as I know, I've been surprised in the past), but I'll thank you for your suggestions and field your questions.

Some of your suggestions can now be written down as ancient history, we just don't advertise everything we do on EMTBravo and in the papers. This all started when two of our officers requested that Civil Service reclassify their titles of "Shift Supervisor" and "Assistant Shift Supervisor" to the proper fire service titles of "Captain" and "Lieutenant", respectively. The city manager at the time opposed such a reclassification, and made it known to the Civil Service representative in a letter. The Civil Service rep then interviewed the volunteer chief at the time, who gave a deposition that was mostly true, with some debatable falsehoods mixed in. Yes, I'm biased, I'm not hiding that fact, and if anyone wishes I will go line for line through the document and debate its veracity.

Civil Service concluded that the positions did not warrant reclassification, citing the then chief's deposition, as well as the city charter, stating that only volunteers shall be officers. It should be pointed out that the city charter is well over 100 years old and is treated as unchangeable. Except when the volunteers changed it a few years ago because they needed candidates for chief, and a couple of years after that when they couldn't fill officer positions, and last month because they needed trustees. The final nail in the coffin was the fact that career FF's don't have command at a scene. However, we continue to argue that, while we might be lower than whale ---- in the current command structure, we're still in there, and have been "in command" at scenes.

The issue was further complicated by the fact that, while no reclassification was granted to the officers, they occupied positions that were not recognized by Civil Service, thus constituting an illegal action. The city was forced to remove the officers from their positions. This left nobody in charge of the training of the career staff, the maintenance of hydrants, fire inspections, etc. This also violated the contract between the City and the Union, which the union grieved and won. As part of the deal, the removed officers had to sign up to test for the newly created positions, whatever they might be. The city sought to quickly remedy the situation, and asked civil service to create titles for the officers. They came up with "Principal Firefighter" for the Captain's postition, and "Senior Firefighter" in place of Lieutenant. A test was given, which no firefighters sat for, the general consensus being that the titles were demeaning, considering that the career officers were held to the same standards as others in the state that had been given the proper fire service title. The council then came up with the idea of having a career fire administrator, but the position was opposed by both the career and volunteer contingents.

That pretty much brings you up to speed. Peekskill has had no career supervision for some time now, outside of the positions of MTO, scheduler, and EMS coordinator, which are strictly clerical positions. Training is still not being done (we drill, but it isn't counted towards the 100 hour requirement. Also, the previous city manager and current fire chief floated the idea of volunteer officers being in charge of training, but that was scrapped because only the one chief is a certified instructor), hydrant maintenance and testing is not being done, and code enforcement has not been done, though it will start up again soon as I understand it. The city council has stated that they would be willing to grant our request for new titles, but the volunteer contingent is putting pressure on them. Many volunteers will support us in private, but few in public. Letters have been written, including a humorous one stating that we're just a union out for money, written by a person that's worked in a union shop for most of her career.

I will state, for the record, that the career officers want no oversight of the volunteers. This is a falsehood being spread by malcontents within their ranks. If anyone has any questions, just ASK one of us, instead of getting things third or fourth hand. Oh, and since I know this is going to be on an overhead projector at the next department meeting, hi guys!

Edited December 29, 2008 by Raz

[Guest]

If you feel that way then it should be addressed with the command staff and the city. When your next contract is up maybe you should all band together under good faith to discuss with the town and the command staff about establishing a set of officers for the career division. Make sure that all the logistics are in place and go for it. Since this would be an obvious change you have to get the local involved. Any way you look at it as well, if you have line officers, there is still one that will be the "shift commander" for the platoon. I can understand why you think that "shift supervisor" is demeaning because it has no firematic value to it. Also, with all your job title and descriptions have to changed, re-worded and accepted by both sides. This is something that will not happen over night. If its discussed properly by all those involved with the department who will be affect, not by anyone here on this board, then changes will happen.

Izzy- Why would I address this issue with the city, it has no relevance to me. I am neither a career or volunteer firefighter in Peekskill. I am merely stating the facts, which is evident by the amount of replies this topic has gotten. On last nights post their were plenty of people(with knowledge of the PFD) offering congratulations to the new volunteer officers. Where are they for this post. This topic of career officers has been discussed for years between the city and the local. Every time it is there are threats by the volunteers that they are going to march to City Hall, or quit the department(just like in Larchmont). Nobody has ever suggested to do away with the volunteer chiefs or officers, just to do what is right for the city and its residents. Tell me izzy since you are a career firefighter what other career or combination department in Westchester County has shift supervisors or assistant shift supervisors? As far as I know 0. They all have Lieutenants, Captains, etc. so why should Peekskill be any different. NIMS tells us that their must be someone in charge at every incident, so who is in charge when the volunteer chiefs or officers are unavailable? Should it be a career officer or an ex volunteer officer no matter how long the ex has been in front of officer. It's pretty cut and dry if you ask me, its all about doing what is right.

[JFLYNN 681]

This seems like a horrrible, inefficient and dangerous situation for all involved- volunteer, career, and the public. I live in a nearby community and I would be happy to come to Peekskill anytime to testify in front of the council, civil service, or any community organization regarding how important it is to have the civil service titles of Captain and Lieutenant in place.

Also, I suggest, if you haven't already, that you enlist the services of the NYS Professional Firefighters Association as well as the IAFF.

Further, be sure to put all of your concerns in writing and sent certified mail to the mayor, every member of the council, city manager, Volly Chiefs, etc. so that when inevitably soemthing goes really wrong they cannot avoid liability by claiming that they were not fully aware of the problem.

Good luck and don't quit fighting for what is right.

[helicopper 1,050]

It is curious that the City Council and City Manager seem to be following the direction of a segment of the volunteer ranks. What is the impact on the volunteers by such a civil service classification for two career FF?

If the issue is command, there really isn't an issue because the volunteer chief is in charge isn't he?

NIMS is irrelevant here because the issue isn't incident management but rather the administrative management of a municipal department. To not have someone in charge is absurd.

To think that hydrant inspections (and service) and code enforcement isn't happening in a city like Peekskill is just plain scary!!!

[Tickfighter 0]

I don't know how it works, but can you tell me why a volunteer has charge over a career firefighter in the first place? Who has more training, who is at EVERY CALL? I'm just asking so don't be mad.

[Bnechis 3,961]

It is curious that the City Council and City Manager seem to be following the direction of a segment of the volunteer ranks. What is the impact on the volunteers by such a civil service classification for two career FF?

If the issue is command, there really isn't an issue because the volunteer chief is in charge isn't he?

I think the issue for the volunteers that are fighting against this is that a career ff might be able to give them a lawful order. i.e a career Lt. could order a vol. ff to do something (particularly if a vol chief was not onscene) or a career Capt. could give an order to a vol Lt.

This is not the 1st Combo FD in Westchester that has had this fight. The question comes up is why should the volunteers be fighting this? Could it be that they are afraid of the personnel that they hired could make a bad order? Or is it just they do not want to be given instructions.

To think that hydrant inspections (and service) and code enforcement isn't happening in a city like Peekskill is just plain scary!!!

The policies of this community are putting every citizen, vol firefighter and career FF in jeopardy. They are also placing additional legal liability on the City, since code enforcment is required by state law. They also run the risk of dropping the ISO rating, by not inspecting the hydrants.

[Raz 14]

Clearing up a few points-

It is curious that the City Council and City Manager seem to be following the direction of a segment of the volunteer ranks. What is the impact on the volunteers by such a civil service classification for two career FF?

The classifications are for 5 positions, one Captain and one LT per shift. I only mentioned the two earlier, because they were the ones who filed for reclassification. As for the City Council, they follow the input of their department head, plain and simple. In this case, that's the chief, and when he has a political agenda like this, it's a conflict of interest.

If the issue is command, there really isn't an issue because the volunteer chief is in charge isn't he?

That's why I made sure to include a few of those final sentences in my earlier post. A few of the guys who scream "we're losing our department!" have been spreading lies stating that we're out to run everything. Say something loudly enough times and people start to believe it.

NIMS is irrelevant here because the issue isn't incident management but rather the administrative management of a municipal department. To not have someone in charge is absurd.

NIMS is relevant. Like I said before, we're lower than whale ----, but we're still in there.

To think that hydrant inspections (and service) and code enforcement isn't happening in a city like Peekskill is just plain scary!!!

The building and water departments are still doing inspections and servicing hydrants, but the fire dept is no longer inspecting places of assembly, testing hydrants, or doing preventative maintenance on them.

[Raz 14]

I think the issue for the volunteers that are fighting against this is that a career ff might be able to give them a lawful order. i.e a career Lt. could order a vol. ff to do something (particularly if a vol chief was not onscene) or a career Capt. could give an order to a vol Lt.

This is not the 1st Combo FD in Westchester that has had this fight. The question comes up is why should the volunteers be fighting this? Could it be that they are afraid of the personnel that they hired could make a bad order? Or is it just they do not want to be given instructions.

All valid points, but when you count up all of the chiefs, deputy chiefs, captains, and lieutenants, Peekskill has over 10 volunteer command cars with numbers. Should they honestly be worried that not one of them will show up and assume command?

[gamewell45 258]

Like I said last night it was good to see the restructure of the firematic officers in Peekskill. Congratulations to those elected. Now that that change has been made, I would like to know when they will be adding officers to the career staff(Capt. & Lieut.). Officers have been long overdue rather than the ridiculous and demeaning titles of shift supervisors. It is time that the well being and safety of the tax paying residents of the city are thought about rather than the feelings of a few members of the Fire Department. It's time to stop the B.S. politics and do whats right for the Citizens.

"Titles" don't put food on your table, money does. Who cares about titles as long as your fairly compensated for what you do. If people are paid at a higher rate of pay for being the "shift supervisors" then a "title" shouldn't be much of an issue.

[Raz 14]

"Titles" don't put food on your table, money does. Who cares about titles as long as your fairly compensated for what you do. If people are paid at a higher rate of pay for being the "shift supervisors" then a "title" shouldn't be much of an issue.

Funny, as a volunteer on this site, you've always been one to make the argument that getting a paycheck is irrelevant when it comes to the issue of simple respect. If you're changing your stance on that, can we revisit some of your old posts?

Although I actually agree with you on this, titles shouldn't be such a big issue.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Raz

[gamewell45 258]

Funny, as a volunteer on this site, you've always been one to make the argument that getting a paycheck is irrelevant when it comes to the issue of simple respect. If you're changing your stance on that, can we revisit some of your old posts?

Raz, Just a statement of fact, no matter what job or industry you work in.

[Remember585 815]

How good can the morale be if you know there is no position for you to ever promote up to? Without them, doesn't it sort of feel like a dead-end job that goes unappreciated? (This doesn't just apply to the PFD but a general statement.)

[Bnechis 3,961]

How good can the morale be if you know there is no position for you to ever promote up to? Without them, doesn't it sort of feel like a dead-end job that goes unappreciated? (This doesn't just apply to the PFD but a general statement.)

Maybe thats the goal of the chief and administration....distroy morale and make this great career just another job

[JFLYNN 681]

Clearing up a few points-

The classifications are for 5 positions, one Captain and one LT per shift. I only mentioned the two earlier, because they were the ones who filed for reclassification. As for the City Council, they follow the input of their department head, plain and simple. In this case, that's the chief, and when he has a political agenda like this, it's a conflict of interest.

No, it's that not plain and simple...the City Council has a moral and legal obligation to question department heads and they have veto power...the department head gives his input to the City Council and Mayor/ City Manager and then the department head follows the "input" of his bosses...therefore I reiterate my point that to accomplish anything you need to put the elected city leaders on notice in writing that there is a problem and you can leave it unsaid that they will be accountable when things go seriously wrong..

That's why I made sure to include a few of those final sentences in my earlier post. A few of the guys who scream "we're losing our department!" have been spreading lies stating that we're out to run everything. Say something loudly enough times and people start to believe it.

NIMS is relevant. Like I said before, we're lower than whale ----, but we're still in there.

The building and water departments are still doing inspections and servicing hydrants, but the fire dept is no longer inspecting places of assembly, testing hydrants, or doing preventative maintenance on them.

[ltmdepas3280 1]

I do not have a dog in this fight...... but just an observation ...What's the liability on the city if they do not have a trained qualified officer in charge at a scene? What are the standards that are being used for a Shift Superviser vs a Captain?....do they go to first line school?

It appears on the surface to be a very disfuctional at best system with a lot of room for someones neck to be placed in a noose..if you know what I mean

Edited December 29, 2008 by ltmdepas3280

[dc2t 80]

There is a form from Westchester Human resources that is a job classification form. It ask questions that pertain to the job title you are working in. The local should make inquiry with them, you have the right to file same. Be prepared that the Human resources does not work at lighting speed. This was done in Greenburgh in 2002. Good luck.

[Raz 14]

All paid fire officers, regardless of title, have to complete first line school. The old supervisors were no different.

[CFD320 35]

I don't know how it works, but can you tell me why a volunteer has charge over a career firefighter in the first place? Who has more training, who is at EVERY CALL? I'm just asking so don't be mad.

Um, you not quite on base here, there are plenty of volunteers that have the equal or more training than their career counterparts. As for the call volume, the average volunteer can respond to alarms say 120 hours per week. Full time work schedules for most Career FF' is 48hours.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

I give myself orders all the time!

[gamewell45 258]

I don't know how it works, but can you tell me why a volunteer has charge over a career firefighter in the first place? Who has more training, who is at EVERY CALL? I'm just asking so don't be mad.

Most likely in many combo departments the Board of Fire Commissioners have determined policy based on the needs of the district and not on employment status. Hope that answers your question.

[Remember585 815]

I give myself orders all the time!

But do you follow them?!

[DonMoose 3]

I figure I should add my $0.02 in here:

I have to agree with Raz - if you're a captain - you're just that a captain - not a shift supervisor or whatever other term they (the city, dept., etc) choose to use. It saddens me that volunteers and career guys don't get along which is why I support both sides and wouldn't EVER say/do something without looking at both sides. It drives me absolutely insane when I see/hear about the politics involved in giving guys what they deserve. WE ALL HAVE TO GROW UP, and stop thinking we're better than one another - do career guys have more training for the most part? YES. Do volunteers have more time (usually) to make calls YES. There's pros and cons to both sides, so why not bank on that and make the best damn fire department possible?

I'm not one of those volunteers who could care-less about the career guys, on the contrary I want them to be happy otherwise whats the use of working? I've yet to meet a career firefighter who hasn't taken me under his wing, showed me the ropes etc, and I appreciate that and I'm all for doing whatever I can to make sure everyone is satisfied. If it was my decision, there would be Career Officers, and Volunteer Officers - that way everyone is happy and there is no more of this nonsense and animosity. IMO Adding career officers would benefit EVERYONE. We have to look out for each other regardless, so lets do it in a way that everyone is happy and benefits.

/rant

Edited December 29, 2008 by DonMoose

[Bnechis 3,961]

What's the liability on the city if they do not have a trained qualified officer in charge at a scene?

Since there are almost no standards for this, very little liability. However, since there are very specific training standards (federal & state) for hazmat incident command, a smart lawyer could distroy an FD if the FD is untrained and makes a bad call. Consider how massive the damage can be in a hazmat incident, including long term contamination.

[Raz 14]

I'd just like to take a moment and thank DonMoose for posting what he did. Like I've said, a lot of the younger volunteers support us, but can't come out and say it for fear of angering the brass. After all, the Chief has a large (some would say disproportionate) hand in who gets hired, and they don't want to make enemies with those who could be sitting across the table from them when it comes time to fill a vacant position.

I had no idea who he was, and when he PM'd me to show support, I told him "Thanks, but sit tight." He went ahead and posted that anyway, and that took balls of steel. Thanks, man.

[x129K 1,393]

I'd just like to take a moment and thank DonMoose for posting what he did. Like I've said, a lot of the younger volunteers support us, but can't come out and say it for fear of angering the brass. After all, the Chief has a large (some would say disproportionate) hand in who gets hired, and they don't want to make enemies with those who could be sitting across the table from them when it comes time to fill a vacant position.

I had no idea who he was, and when he PM'd me to show support, I told him "Thanks, but sit tight." He went ahead and posted that anyway, and that took balls of steel. Thanks, man.

Wait....a person in a position that gets voted on, and could change yearly, is resposible for the hiring process of permanent career staff?

I guess I had never thought of that....as the combo departments around here have career Chiefs (Deputy Chief...but not from lack of trying)....but that could be interesting...and dare I say...somewhat of a concern, given the potential volitlity and inherent ever changing leadership of the volunteer service...