Portable Radios for FF in Hazardous Environments

[helicopper 1,050]

BUT...since you mentioned our safety...how about getting a bank of portable radios on all of the first due engines and the ladder for EACH crew assigned to an IDLH atmosphere??

This was brought up in a different thread and moved here to keep the old thread on topic and start a new discussion on this point.

Does your apparatus have enough portable radios so each member entering a hazardous environment has the ability to call for help, communicate with their supervisor or the IC, or others on scene?

If not, why not?

Thanks to x129K for bringing up the question!

[IzzyEng4 427]

Where I work we all have portable radios assigned to us. Each is programed with our call-ID and our name.

[Beekman 5]

In Beekman we just replaced all our portable and mobile radios. Each SCBA is assigned a portable. We had issued them to members in the past but we had inactive members who wouldn't return the radios, members who "forgot" to bring them to the scene, members who "forgot" to charge their batteries, etc.

Now they are on the truck so if you have a pack, you have a fully charged functioning radio.

[Danger 160]

In Beekman we just replaced all our portable and mobile radios. Each SCBA is assigned a portable. We had issued them to members in the past but we had inactive members who wouldn't return the radios, members who "forgot" to bring them to the scene, members who "forgot" to charge their batteries, etc.

Now they are on the truck so if you have a pack, you have a fully charged functioning radio.

I like that SCBA idea a lot. We only have 4 for 5 riders and a driver. Everybody doesn't need to talk on the radio, really just the officer, but I would hate to get in to trouble (god forbid) and not have a way of calling distress.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

In Beekman we just replaced all our portable and mobile radios. Each SCBA is assigned a portable. We had issued them to members in the past but we had inactive members who wouldn't return the radios, members who "forgot" to bring them to the scene, members who "forgot" to charge their batteries, etc.

Now they are on the truck so if you have a pack, you have a fully charged functioning radio.

Sound idea. I have recommended numerous times on apparatus committee's that for each SCBA in compartments, that it should be wired to have a portable radio next to it and a handlight. This ensures that each member will take each item, rather then what often happens where someone arrives in their POV, grabs a pack, hopefully a tool and often the handlight gets left behind.

[x129K 1,393]

Sound idea. I have recommended numerous times on apparatus committee's that for each SCBA in compartments, that it should be wired to have a portable radio next to it and a handlight. This ensures that each member will take each item, rather then what often happens where someone arrives in their POV, grabs a pack, hopefully a tool and often the handlight gets left behind.

Mask, Radio, Light....sounds so simple...WHY can't some people get it!?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Mask, Radio, Light....sounds so simple...WHY can't some people get it!?

To be honest with you....it comes down to 2 things to me:

1. Training- Far too often during training members are allowed and in some cases made to function without the use of some of the above items. In addition they do not train in ways in which they will have to function as they may arrive. For instance from their POV to arriving at the apparatus then go work. You will fight as you train. Plus any brain neurons built through effective training will start to slow within 6 months and go dormant in close to a year. This includes muscle memory. One of the worse things that can occur is not allowing your firefighters to utilize equipment when training. Don't get in the habit of grabbing a handlight (or any piece of equipment) it is not reinforce and will not occur under the stress of the flight/fight response occurring during an actual incident. This also goes with telling persons when they do something improper when utilizing a SCBA in training that they are "dead." This can have huge implications on their pysche if something real to occur. This comes out of military and police training that you are never dead until you are dead and you won't know it. If your conscious and breathing you keep fighting! Don't train your members that and they may think to themselves...damn I'm out of air, I know I'm in trouble and I'm dead or going to die. They may just like there and give up. Anyone who wants to know more about this phenomenon and the relation between stress induced heart rate increases and loss of fine and complex motor control and the retraining of the brain...read the book "On Killing" by Lt. Col. Bill Grossman. It is an awesome book regardless.

2. We do not design functional apparatus to make this happen easily for those who respond via POV to easily get to the items they will need for pretty much every call. Arrive, don your PPE, get to the truck, don an SCBA out of a compartment, can grab a tool quick from another compartment...then where are most of the handlights stored....in the cab.

[Remember585 815]

We've pretty much outfitted many, if not most, of our active personnel with a personal light as part of their PPE.

The downside - a lack of charging it. Luckily most of our apparatus carry the same lights so a member can swap theirs out with a rig light. Handlights are stored in the cabs because most design emphasis is for the crew on the rig, not the ones coming to the scene.

As far as radios go... we have a radio for every seat on our apparatus. That's a total of 36 radios between 3 Engines, the Truck, Tanker & Rescue. Not to mention each Chief, each Deputy Chief & Safety Officer. AND those that have personal radios.

Do people STILL forget - yup. There's also people that don't want to carry a radio, and although their points are fairly good, I still wish they would.

As it was said, only a team leader or unit leader should be communicating unless there is urgent or emergency traffic. If you are part of a 4 member crew, let the leader or Officer do the talking, and when he does have to talk, COVER YOUR MICS to reduce the feedback!

Some places are putting radios with their SCBAs, and that's a good idea. The biggest problem I have is that all of our portables stay in their chargers, which cuts their battery life, because there is no place else to put them.

Yet.

[helicopper 1,050]

As it was said, only a team leader or unit leader should be communicating unless there is urgent or emergency traffic. If you are part of a 4 member crew, let the leader or Officer do the talking, and when he does have to talk, COVER YOUR MICS to reduce the feedback!

Or, if you're part of a four person crew, keep your radio off unless/until you need it and just let the officer or crew leader do the talking.

Imagine that? Only the person who should be talking is talking?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

We've pretty much outfitted many, if not most, of our active personnel with a personal light as part of their PPE.

The downside - a lack of charging it. Luckily most of our apparatus carry the same lights so a member can swap theirs out with a rig light. Handlights are stored in the cabs because most design emphasis is for the crew on the rig, not the ones coming to the scene.

585...your right on the design thoughts, but they are easily changed, just as with most of the insignificant things I see changed or added on apparatus after apparatus. I'm seeing less and less volunteer firefighters in the stations (not that it was common thing to begin with in my experience, except on meeting nights, football games and drills). Its all about wiring.

I'm still a fan of giving equipment to personnel as it often makes them feel good. But I prefer the vulcan light over the survivor, being I want a light on my hip that is functional (I like the blue LED's on the back, particularly when searching) then a light on my chest pointing to the ground!

[JFLYNN 681]

Or, if you're part of a four person crew, keep your radio off unless/until you need it and just let the officer or crew leader do the talking.

Imagine that? Only the person who should be talking is talking?

Chris, you're correct in regard to having one person (the Officer) do the talking but there are very many reasons why every mermber operating on the fireground should have a radio in the ON position and should be LISTENING to it...primarily because when "it" hits the fan the mayday or urgent call will very rarely be given in a calm, clear manner...it may be faint, garbled, rushed, etc., and the more people that are monitoring the airwaves, the more likely that someone will actually hear and make sense of what is happening and be able to react to it or give the proper info. to someone who is in a position to react.

[ny10570 745]

What are the pretty good points for not carrying a radio?

[Guest alsfirefighter]

None of which I think would actually trump the reason to have one NY.

I see alot of members reading this thread..but very little input. Lets go gang...this is a great topic and one that involves operations...a handful of posts doesn't cut it....GET INVOLVED!

Edited December 24, 2008 by alsfirefighter

[Guest]

I think its a great idea. I know that we usually have radios for everyone, unless we run an 8 man engine or truck. But even with that, some of our members have gone out and gotten personal radios, from ebay and other places like that.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I think its a great idea. I know that we usually have radios for everyone, unless we run an 8 man engine or truck. But even with that, some of our members have gone out and gotten personal radios, from ebay and other places like that.

If they are buying their own, does your dept. require them to be intrinsically safe? And do you check them for that?

[Guest]

If they are buying their own, does your dept. require them to be intrinsically safe? And do you check them for that?

Almost all of the personal radios are the same Motorolas we run on the rigs. I honestly can't say whether or not they are 'Dept Certified,' but they guys who own them check them as regularly as we check all the rest of our gear. They honestly are rarely used for basic fireground comms, but after a few close calls with unequipped firefighters, a lot of the guys got them just in case. But since we will be switching frequency bands soon, and will have radios for every riding position in every rig, personal radios aren't really a concern anymore.

[rbuchjr 0]

Our trucks only carry two portable radios on it, generally one for the driver and one for the crew. Every officer has their own portable, so wishfully thinking the officer, the crew, and the driver will each have a radio. If an officer doesn't show up, and a senior guy is riding shotgun, then the crew is without a radio, which can be a problem. I would like to see another radio put on each truck, because each crew I think should have a portable.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

While it should not ever happen, if a fire fighter gets separated from the team the entered with and become disoriented or lost, or god forbid injured, the ability to communicate with that firefighter and communicate within the incident should be reason enough to provide every firefighter witha working protable radio.

That being said, just because you have been given a radio does not mean that you should be talking on it. Radio communication should and usually is confined to officers communicating with teams or teams communicating with other teams. The team leaders and the officers should be the only ones talking unless an urgent or an emergency needs to be transmitted. However, just because you are not talking on the radio does not mean that you should be ignoring it. Try listening to everything said over the radio, that way to can expect certain things and even anticipate and prepare for situations or orders.

I also do not think that I have ever used a radio to communicate with anyone while on scene, but I think I have listened and learned from each transmission.

Just my .02 cents

[ny10570 745]

wow, I thought we were slow in getting everyone radios. We've had them now in every riding position for 4 or 5 years now. Its not if people get lost or separated, its because people do get lost and separated. In paid depts that train together every day and see fire every week guys still get in trouble. In your busiest volunteer companies that see multiple fires a month guys still get jammed up. Its not a matter of if it happens, but when it happens.

[helicopper 1,050]

Chris, you're correct in regard to having one person (the Officer) do the talking but there are very many reasons why every mermber operating on the fireground should have a radio in the ON position and should be LISTENING to it...primarily because when "it" hits the fan the mayday or urgent call will very rarely be given in a calm, clear manner...it may be faint, garbled, rushed, etc., and the more people that are monitoring the airwaves, the more likely that someone will actually hear and make sense of what is happening and be able to react to it or give the proper info. to someone who is in a position to react.

Excellent point, Chief. I guess in an environment like yours (interior FF, haz-mat, etc.) that makes a lot of sense. On EMS calls, however, it is often deafening when the 3-4 people on the ambulance crew all have portables on at full volume.

[RWC130 594]

IMO, Portable Radios belong on the Fire Apparatus where they are

ALWAYS READY to grab and hopefully ALWAYS CHARGED.

As a Firefighter that Portable Radio is your LIFELINE!

Agree?

Having a Portable Radio for every SCBA is EXCELLENT!

Fire Officer's should always be able to contact ANY Firefighter who

is inside a Structure or working at an Incident.

It's nice to issue members of the FD Portable Radios (i.e. Top Responders, Etc)

but what happenes when you have a Fire and they don't show up?

Maybe 10 of your Top 15 Responders have Day Jobs?

Now, you have a Fire at 1 PM where are the Portable Radios?

What do the other Firefighters do without a Radio?

It's nice to issue Firefighter's equipment such as Portable Radio, Flashlights,

and in some cases SCBA's but HAVE A BACK UP PLAN!

I am sure it's not long before OSHA, NFPA, PESH, or NIOSH

step in and say "Radio Communication Device" aka Portable Radio

is part standard issue equipment just like PPE for FF Safety and rightfully so.

Two In, Two Out, BOTH should have a Portable Radio!

[JM15 386]

Exactly RWC. I'm sure that in this age of technology portable radios will become part or your basic PPE. I feel that everyone on scene should have one to hear important updates and life safety hazards that they need to be aware of or if they need to call a mayday. With that being said I agree some people shouldn't be talking on the radio especially on a large or hectic scene. Maybe there should be more training on radio etiquette? When I took fire 1 a couple of years ago we did a little training with radios. Maybe departments should do training on this if everyone is going to have one on scene.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Two In, Two Out, BOTH should have a Portable Radio!

Are you referring to the Respiratory Protection Regulation and 2 in, 2 out?

If so then all 4 should have a radio. Also lets not forget that the regulation requires that the 2 in the potential IDLH must remain in voice contact at a minimum.

[Guest]

Mask, Radio, Light....sounds so simple...WHY can't some people get it!?

Dan as far as Dover we try to get a radio to all the interior guys if you dont have one I will work on it. As far as buying one its the problem with not having an identifier in them when an idiot talks on the wrong channel and the whole county heres a conversation that should have never been on the radio in the first place

[Remember585 815]

One of the gripes I have is that people fail to see that a radio is a TOOL. And like all the tools we carry on our rigs, we need to train on them. I can't tell you how many times I have had people hand me a portable and say, "Put this on the right channel for me." Before we reprogrammed all of our portables this year, a member would have to select a zone then find their respective channel. It was decided that this was a pain in the arse, so we reprogrammed everything this year - portables, mobiles and base radios - to match. If Command tells everyone we are working on channel 5, it is the same for all.

Now, that's on conventional radios. The trunked radios are a whole different game. No matter how often I explain to people how to use them, it never fails that someone will go to the wrong zone / talkgroup/ channel. About a month or two ago, we re-implemented our bi-weekly radio check. All apparatus are to participate in two "radio checks." The first is on the trunked system, the second on the Fireground channel. This way personnel know how to navigate the radio from one zone to the other. So far, there always seems to be one rig that goes to the wrong zone or talkgroup. Hopefully in 2009 it won't happen (as much).

While on the subject of radios, there's a few peeves of mine I feel like sharing that hopefully some will learn from.

1. WAIT TWO SECONDS BEFORE TALKING! Whether I am at work, home or in the car I always hear partial transmissions because there is a severe lack of understanding by those using the radios. (This doesn't just apply to field units either...) To minimize this problem, we programmed all of our portable radios with pre-TX transmitters so you have to wait until that beep is done.

2. USE A FIREGROUND / TALKAROUND channel on scene! If your search team is inside and trying to communicate with the IC on a repeater, they may not be hitting it or only hitting it partially. When in close proximity to one another - get off the repeater.

3. IF IT CAN BE DONE BY PHONE - DO IT! Too often people use the radio like it's a phone or a Nextel. If you're going out of town for a parade or a drill, pick up a phone. Our SOG says this and most often it gets adhered to. It doesn't make sense to me for rigs to call on the radio that they won't be in service - pick up a phone. Someone might actually have a legit reason to be on the radio and you might be covering them.

Sorry about the ranting...cranky this AM...

Edited December 27, 2008 by Remember585

[antiquefirelt 994]

If they are buying their own, does your dept. require them to be intrinsically safe? And do you check them for that?

Does your FD require intrinsically safe radios or other tools (flashlights, meters)? IIRC an "intrinsically safe" device is only certified as such for 2 years? And this certification is voided if you drop the device or potentially damage it. How does one re-certify any intrinsically safe devices? We ended up not worrying nearly as much about this and concentrate much more on staying out of potentially explosive atmospheres. For haz-mat ops all communications devices are worn in the suit. Any potentially flammable atmospheres are constantly metered (of course we have to suspect it).

Our FD issues all career personnel a portable radio, each chief officer carries two (one for OPS, one for dispatch). Each ambo has one more portable for the crew. All call division officers are also issued a portable. Our com plan includes buying more radios, until we have enough to maintain spares and issue one per firefighter.

The problem with too many radios is usually discipline. Our county EMA received and issued to FD's about 250 portables a few years ago, but there was no education, SOP's or disciplinary protocol, so we now have at least 50 morons who believe their being issued a radio raised their level of importance. Now these idiots are on the air for every little thing. Operationally the only issue we find with everyone having a radio is that when there are two with close proximity they feed back upon transmission. In a low visibility environment its hard to predict when the officer is going to "key up" so the radios must be turned down low which impairs hearing them well? Anyone else have this issue or have figured it out? I suspect this is due to our use of a simplex channel for ops?

[markmets415 524]

Excellent thread, looks to be one of the most productive one since I have been visiting EMTBRAVO. This is what makes this site an excellent resource, so much knowledge and experience; a blend of career Chiefs and FF'ers willing to share their thoughts and knowledge with us Vollies in the samllest of small departments.

We started issuing pager/portables to the membership a few years ago and it seems to work ok. As stated the biggest problem is that you may not bring it or it is not charged. Having them also on the apparatus as stated in the area of the handlight and SCBA is an great idea and a pretty basic concept.

As far as JHK3605 point of being on the wrong channel, that can only be corrected with training. When is the last time there was a basic radio class in our area?

As 585 stated the radio is a tool, just like any other tool you must be trained in it's use.

[Guest]

Excellent thread, looks to be one of the most productive one since I have been visiting EMTBRAVO. This is what makes this site an excellent resource, so much knowledge and experience; a blend of career Chiefs and FF'ers willing to share their thoughts and knowledge with us Vollies in the samllest of small departments.

We started issuing pager/portables to the membership a few years ago and it seems to work ok. As stated the biggest problem is that you may not bring it or it is not charged. Having them also on the apparatus as stated in the area of the handlight and SCBA is an great idea and a pretty basic concept.

As far as JHK3605 point of being on the wrong channel, that can only be corrected with training. When is the last time there was a basic radio class in our area?

As 585 stated the radio is a tool, just like any other tool you must be trained in it's use.

Mark in house training is a big thing and like you said people use it for a phone which it is not

[antiquefirelt 994]

We started issuing pager/portables to the membership a few years ago and it seems to work ok. As stated the biggest problem is that you may not bring it or it is not charged. Having them also on the apparatus as stated in the area of the handlight and SCBA is an great idea and a pretty basic concept.

As far as JHK3605 point of being on the wrong channel, that can only be corrected with training. When is the last time there was a basic radio class in our area?

As 585 stated the radio is a tool, just like any other tool you must be trained in it's use.

The last line says it all. We found that 95% of our personnel keep their gear in the station, while we have no rules preventing them from taking it home and responding to the scene (we do have rules on how to do this though). So, if you have a FD issued portable it must stay with your gear. That way it's always where its needed and not used to call in suspected drunk drivers or other cell phone uses. As we buy more radios we're contemplating only programming the firefighters portables with our ops channel and maybe the tactical repeater channel to ensure they stay on our system. Basically a firefighter shouldn't need to speak to dispatch directly, but could if need be on the tact repeater. Our personnel are required to stay on our Ops channel at all times, even mutual aid, where they operate as a company and report to our command officer who carries two multi-channel radios. This officer keeps one radio on our freq and the other on the M/A commend channel. Variations of this are as needed for RIT assignments or other ops coordination, but remain at the officer's discretion.

[Guest]

The last line says it all. We found that 95% of our personnel keep their gear in the station, while we have no rules preventing them from taking it home and responding to the scene (we do have rules on how to do this though). So, if you have a FD issued portable it must stay with your gear. That way it's always where its needed and not used to call in suspected drunk drivers or other cell phone uses. As we buy more radios we're contemplating only programming the firefighters portables with our ops channel and maybe the tactical repeater channel to ensure they stay on our system. Basically a firefighter shouldn't need to speak to dispatch directly, but could if need be on the tact repeater. Our personnel are required to stay on our Ops channel at all times, even mutual aid, where they operate as a company and report to our command officer who carries two multi-channel radios. This officer keeps one radio on our freq and the other on the M/A commend channel. Variations of this are as needed for RIT assignments or other ops coordination, but remain at the officer's discretion.

This sounds like a good idea its the people that go out and buy their own radios and have them programed without the Chief knowing that is usally the problem