Consolidating Services Part Deux - Volunteer Fire

[huzzie59 75]

So the last "combining services" topic had very good points concerning paid departments. But combining volunteer departments could be considered the greater priority.

SO...................

Leaving out "it will never happen" and "too many personalities", assume the following:

-SOG's will be agreed to

-One Chief, an number of assistants, and one governing body of the new department.

SO........

How would you do the following:

a. decide which departments to combine;

b. decide which appartus stays, goes or gets added?

c. decide which station stays, goes, do any get added?

d. how alarms are answered, number of engines, ladders, etc.

e. What problems/issues are satisfied by your prposal?

Yes, may be pie in the sky, but progressive minds dream.

Just have "fun" with this!

[Bnechis 3,961]

SO........

How would you do the following:

a. decide which departments to combine;

b. decide which appartus stays, goes or gets added?

c. decide which station stays, goes, do any get added?

Using ESRI's network analysis (its a GIS program that evaluates respons time/distance) you can determine your area of coverage. This will show which station is closest to every street, and what the ISO reponse distances are from each station. Each rig and station can be turned on or off to determine what would occur with or without it. Additional stations can also be plugged in as needed

Any professional consultant should be able to run this program and give you crystal clear maps documenting all of this.

[FFPCogs 863]

How would you do the following:

a. decide which departments to combine;

b. decide which appartus stays, goes or gets added?

c. decide which station stays, goes, do any get added?

d. how alarms are answered, number of engines, ladders, etc.

e. What problems/issues are satisfied by your prposal?

The combining of volunteer departments is fast becoming an idea whose time may have come in many areas. So in answer to the above in the general sense:

1) Those departments who are suffering a lack of personnel which is effecting their response times and /or manpower availability on scene.

2) Because in most cases there is no assigned staff for any particular piece of apparatus, this point is a bit tricky. Using career guidelines may not provide the necessary levels of coverage to an all volunteer area. It may be that a higher number of units will need to be assigned to a box to ensure that the minumum arrives on scene in a timely manner.

3) The idea of using the system mentioned in Bnechis post is a good start, and may well be the guideline. But it must take into account traffic conditions that can hamper a responder's ability to either reach the station, or if POV responses are used the scene, in a reasonabler time. Unlike a career dept. most volunteer FDs still do not staff their FDs so station placement and by extension the equipment housed there, is directly affected by the members ability to reach any station.

4) Based on the above situations, the responses must ensure that a minumum amount of personnel and apparatus are assigned to all alarms to provide the necessary level of coverage on scene...no easy task when there are no "guarantees". At a minimum a 2 engine, 1 truck and 1 rescue assignment is what I would consider adequate for a SFPD response. To achieve this minimum on scene in a timely manner though it may require the dispatch of 3 or 4 engines, 2 trucks and 2 rescues if we cannot guarantee those intial units will be on the road quickly..it only take once for a shortfall to have disasterous consequences. Of course as the hazard increases so does the intial response assignment required along with the attendant draw on the areas resources.

5) The only real way to lessen or eliminate many of the problems that bring about the need for combining, is to address the root cause..lack of personnel to guarantee an adequate response. Combining two or more departments in a small response area may have the desired effect as this will increase the manpower pool within that small area which should offer better service. But as the combined districts grow larger so to does the time and effort required to respond with the necessary resources. Combining will almost always save money, but two or more depleted/failing departments combined can simply result in one larger failure without fundemental changes in operation and administration.

To me combining volunteer departments does have some definite pros, but the manpower issue almost always remains the major con. I have become more and more inclined towards the idea of minimum volunteer staffing in conjunction with combining to help alleviate or eliminate that which causes the problem in the first place. Only when we can guarantee a minimum response can we consolidate the resources we have to ensure the communities needs are met. But that's another topic.

Yes, may be pie in the sky, but progressive minds dream.

Just have "fun" with this!

As Eleanor Roosevelt said:

" Simple minds discuss other people

Average minds discuss events

Great minds discuss ideas"

Oh, and make mine apple...

Cogs

Edited December 20, 2008 by FFPCogs

[Remember585 815]

A few of us in my Department that frequently check into these forums were talking about this earlier today / last night. While consolidation isn't the worst idea ever, we wonder, who would we benefit from merging with? Up here in our neck of the woods we really aren't "right on top" of any of our neighboring departments.

Ossining is to our south.

Millwood is to our south east.

Montrose is to our north.

Yorktown is to our east.

Mohegan is to our east.

Our 3 stations are closer to the majority of our district then any of our neighboring departments. Any thoughts?

[helicopper 1,050]

A few of us in my Department that frequently check into these forums were talking about this earlier today / last night. While consolidation isn't the worst idea ever, we wonder, who would we benefit from merging with? Up here in our neck of the woods we really aren't "right on top" of any of our neighboring departments.

Ossining is to our south.

Millwood is to our south east.

Montrose is to our north.

Yorktown is to our east.

Mohegan is to our east.

Our 3 stations are closer to the majority of our district then any of our neighboring departments. Any thoughts?

Consolidation wouldn't necessarily mean closing every station or eliminating anything in your case. It might mean a single administrative body overseeing multiple areas (former independent Departments) coordinating things like purchasing, training, contracts, etc.

This might mean economies of scale and greater leverage with vendors. Eventually it would also mean standard apparatus configurations as they would all be bought under the umbrella of the larger (if mythical) department.

Who knows, the possibilities are endless!

[huzzie59 75]

Oh, and make mine apple...

Ala Mode?

[Bnechis 3,961]

A few of us in my Department that frequently check into these forums were talking about this earlier today / last night. While consolidation isn't the worst idea ever, we wonder, who would we benefit from merging with? Up here in our neck of the woods we really aren't "right on top" of any of our neighboring departments. Our 3 stations are closer to the majority of our district then any of our neighboring departments. Any thoughts?

A large section of your district is an ISO 9 (outside the village). A proven concept in improving the ISO 9 (for non hydrant) is standardized tankers. They must transport the same GPM and load/unload at the same rate. This is critical not just for ISO, but for firefighting.

[ajsbear 11]

A few of us in my Department that frequently check into these forums were talking about this earlier today / last night. While consolidation isn't the worst idea ever, we wonder, who would we benefit from merging with? Up here in our neck of the woods we really aren't "right on top" of any of our neighboring departments.

Ossining is to our south.

Millwood is to our south east.

Montrose is to our north.

Yorktown is to our east.

Mohegan is to our east.

Our 3 stations are closer to the majority of our district then any of our neighboring departments. Any thoughts?

I know you guys don't always admit it but Croton is part of the Town of Cortlandt. Consolidation in the town can and would work. you guys already work with the Tri Village departments, sometimes Mohegan and they cover part of the town and Continental Village.

Also with Ossining to the south the town has several departments. I would think town wise would be a great place to start.

[ny10570 745]

Ultimately through consolidation you can streamline your response. When you call mutual aid, are you calling for manpower or vehicles? Unless its tankers or first mutual aid engine and ladder 90% of the time its all about manpower. You condense your manpower to two or three vehicles and then the rigs responding in from other communities will not only be full of members but they won't be parked two blocks away scattered amongst other unused rigs.

[helicopper 1,050]

Where is everybody? I thought this thread would have gone wild by now...

[JFLYNN 681]

Where is everybody? I thought this thread would have gone wild by now...

HAHA ...No you didn't Chris...the lack of reply's to this thread comes as no surprise to many of us and is further evidence of what certain people's actual motivations are...they're more worried about maybe not being the big fish in the small pond anymore than they are worried about discussing the best way to deliver efficient cost effective fire protection...at least not in their own backyard but they'll be only to happy to discuss how to "improve' things in someone else's backyard...

P.S. On a totally unrelated note- this forum would be less painful at times to read if those of you who aren't sure of the correct use of the followuing words would look them up:there, they're and their...

[markmets415 524]

Where is everybody? I thought this thread would have gone wild by now...

Chris either sleeping in or last minute shopping!

We up here further in the sticks aid each other with manpower frequently, I live about 1 mile from the JHK house (six miles to my own) that is South of our Fire District and when home I ride or drive thier apparatus. We have members that live in the Northern part of our district that respond to assist Amenia with thier alarms and a few EMT's from Amenia actually have our pagers to assist us on day calls. We here in our area work together extremely well.

The one thing that clearly needs approvement is the duplication of equipment. We and Amenia are in the same town and have over the years purchased some of the same equipment, that slowly is changing but with the harder economics times things this will surely needs to change. There has been some rumors or grumbling about making one fire district, keeping both houses but elimating some of the duplicated resources. As stated with the $$$ situation as it is it is more of a possibility than some might want to admit to.

[markmets415 524]

HAHA ...No you didn't Chris...the lack of reply's to this thread comes as no surprise to many of us and is further evidence of what certain people's actual motivations are...they're more worried about maybe not being the big fish in the small pond anymore than they are worried about discussing the best way to deliver efficient cost effective fire protection...at least not in their own backyard but they'll be only to happy to discuss how to "improve' things in someone else's backyard...

P.S. On a totally unrelated note- this forum would be less painful at times to read if those of you who aren't sure of the correct use of the followuing words would look them up:there, they're and their...

Chief well said, those that have to justify the spending and resource management clearly understand the CORRECT thought process needed to actually understand the reasoning behind the delivery of an efficient and cost effective service to the community.

[RichC 0]

I think Chief Flynn is on to something here. I think many are suspicious of the motivations of those in favor of consolidation without really understanding how a combined system would work. I grew up in Baltimore County a place where many pro consolidation posters point to as a place where this works. Their model is a county wide combination department.

The vol. firefighter, who I suspect harbors the most fear of consolidation, has a definite role in this system and it is not as a clean up crew. Career stations and vol. firehouses each have their own defined role. I am sure there is a lot I don’t know about their system having never been a member in it but from what I do know it is nothing to be afraid of.

[ex-commish 490]

HAHA ...No you didn't Chris...the lack of reply's to this thread comes as no surprise to many of us and is further evidence of what certain people's actual motivations are...they're more worried about maybe not being the big fish in the small pond anymore than they are worried about discussing the best way to deliver efficient cost effective fire protection...at least not in their own backyard but they'll be only to happy to discuss how to "improve' things in someone else's backyard...

P.S. On a totally unrelated note- this forum would be less painful at times to read if those of you who aren't sure of the correct use of the followuing words would look them up:there, they're and their...

I think it is more this issue has been discussed at length in other forums and has been beaten to death. I am in favor of consolidation. Too much equipment...not enough people.

[NYMedic37 22]

I think it is more this issue has been discussed at length in other forums and has been beaten to death. I am in favor of consolidation. Too much equipment...not enough people.

I agree, too much equipment and not enough PROPERLY TRAINED people. Maybe consolidate by combining township departments like Greenburgh. Combine all Greenburgh volunteer departments into one to supplement the 3 paid Greenburgh departments.

[dc2t 80]

I agree, too much equipment and not enough PROPERLY TRAINED people. Maybe consolidate by combining township departments like Greenburgh. Combine all Greenburgh volunteer departments into one to supplement the 3 paid Greenburgh departments.

Do you really know what combining the 3 Greenburgh Fire Districts entail? The one point the Town will never venture to is the fire protections districts. If you combine the 3 districts, the protection districts should be part of the unincorporated area Town fire district.

[gamewell45 258]

Where is everybody? I thought this thread would have gone wild by now...

Chris, I think most of the people in here are sick and tired of flaying a dead mule. Most likely they are tired of debating this issue time over time when most of them know the chances of change happening in our lifetimes are nil, thus rendering the subject a moot point.

Edited December 24, 2008 by gamewell45

[helicopper 1,050]

Chris, I think most of the people in here are sick and tired of flaying a dead mule. Most likely they are tired of debating this issue time over time when most of them know the chances of change happening in our lifetimes are nil, thus rendering the subject a moot point.

True enough, but how about sitting down at a real table instead of a cyber one and discussing the issue for real and start making substantive changes instead of just paying the idea lip service?

Even if as someone suggested it just started at the Town level and was for things like insurance, fuel, purchasing, etc. there would probably be savings.

[JFLYNN 681]

Do you really know what combining the 3 Greenburgh Fire Districts entail? The one point the Town will never venture to is the fire protections districts. If you combine the 3 districts, the protection districts should be part of the unincorporated area Town fire district.

Please enlighten us.

[NYMedic37 22]

True enough, but how about sitting down at a real table instead of a cyber one and discussing the issue for real and start making substantive changes instead of just paying the idea lip service?

Even if as someone suggested it just started at the Town level and was for things like insurance, fuel, purchasing, etc. there would probably be savings.

Saving money thru fuel, insurance, etc. sounds good to me!

[HFD23 37]

I agree, too much equipment and not enough PROPERLY TRAINED people. Maybe consolidate by combining township departments like Greenburgh. Combine all Greenburgh volunteer departments into one to supplement the 3 paid Greenburgh departments.

Interesting idea..

But what would the purpose of that be? I don’t know how familiar you are with the 3 Greenburgh departments, but they already train 3 out of 4 Tuesdays of the month together. They have 1 company only drill to work with specifics for their own department. They have no in-service fire apparatus, thus no cost of district vehicles aside from Greenville’s volunteer chief has a car.

Now let’s say Fairview has a fire, HFD and GFD career staff go, a signal 9 will be put out over the radio which means report to your quarters. So the volunteers will report and depending on how many members show up determines how many will go to the fire scene. As it is always your task to protect your own 1st due area 1st.

So my main question is what does the combination of all 3 seek to attain.

[NYMedic37 22]

Interesting idea..

But what would the purpose of that be? I don’t know how familiar you are with the 3 Greenburgh departments, but they already train 3 out of 4 Tuesdays of the month together. They have 1 company only drill to work with specifics for their own department. They have no in-service fire apparatus, thus no cost of district vehicles aside from Greenville’s volunteer chief has a car.

Now let’s say Fairview has a fire, HFD and GFD career staff go, a signal 9 will be put out over the radio which means report to your quarters. So the volunteers will report and depending on how many members show up determines how many will go to the fire scene. As it is always your task to protect your own 1st due area 1st.

So my main question is what does the combination of all 3 seek to attain.

I'm not a firefighter so please don't think that I'm playing monday morning quarterback but Does each of the 3 departments have a chief and deputy chiefs? Why not create 1 department and save on the amount of brass. Greenburgh Police has 1 chief and 3 Captains. Do the 3 fire departments in Greenburgh need 3 chiefs? 3 sets of deputy chiefs? Why not incorporate all of the volunteer Greenburgh departments into one for uniform training and evaluate if all of the current apparatus is really needed? Thanx.....just my2 cents.....from a non-firefighter.

[ladder55 26]

are you guys talking about vollunteers in fairview, hartsdale, and greenville or the volunteer dept's in the town of greenburgh?

[HFD23 37]

I'm not a firefighter so please don't think that I'm playing monday morning quarterback but Does each of the 3 departments have a chief and deputy chiefs? Why not create 1 department and save on the amount of brass. Greenburgh Police has 1 chief and 3 Captains. Do the 3 fire departments in Greenburgh need 3 chiefs? 3 sets of deputy chiefs? Why not incorporate all of the volunteer Greenburgh departments into one for uniform training and evaluate if all of the current apparatus is really needed? Thanx.....just my2 cents.....from a non-firefighter.

This thread is about the volunteer departments. So I assume you mean volunteers, as I said in my post that volunteers and how they work so any consolidation doesn’t really apply there is no cost. They already train together and they don't operate any fire apparatus, they respond to each others fires once protection is ensured for their own 1st due areas. Only the GFD vol chief has a take home car so there are not multiple take home vehicles or fuel bills.

second their are more then 3 departments in greenburgh, Greenvile Hartsdale and Fairview are combination they have carreer staff that operate the apparatus.

the volunteer departments of elmsford, ardsley, hastings, dobbs, and i believe tarrytown all are part of greenburgh and all have full volunteer departments that i believe all have 3 chiefs with cars per dept and the volunteers operate their apparatus so any questions on that topic can be better answered by some one from those depts.

so i guess the answer to your question is really based upon what 3 departments in greenburgh you ment?

[steve shryock 0]

There are a total of 9 depts. in the Town of Greenburgh. 3 are FPD (Greenville, Hartsdale & Fairview) while 6 are municipal departments of the incorporated villages. (Ardsley, Dobbs Ferry, Elmsford, Hastings, Irvington & Tarrytown)

Edited December 25, 2008 by steve shryock

[NYMedic37 22]

are you guys talking about vollunteers in fairview, hartsdale, and greenville or the volunteer dept's in the town of greenburgh?

I'm talking about both. Make one big happy family.

[firecapt32 282]

Well one of the problems is that The Town of Greenburgh has Fire Districts---separate identities separate funding created by the State of New York many years ago, so combining them would take votes by the people living in the areas-then legislation has to be passed. It is not as easy as you think. not saying it cant be done but it isn't easy. Another thing to consider is the town of Greenburgh Pays to have places protected with in the boundaries of the town. Example Elmsford has a hugh fire protection district--that the town of Greenburgh Pays the Village to protect--that brings money into the village would they want to give that up?? would they have to?? again not saying it cant be done just a lot more to it then we might all think.

[ladder55 26]

firecapt32 is correct. Elmsford is 1 square mile and the fire district is 2.8 miles.

[steve shryock 0]

One objection to any consolidation would be the incorporated villages, NOT THE MEMBERS. The villages would lose money.