Consolidating Services Part Deux - Volunteer Fire

[firecapt32 282]

Now we are getting someplace----money

[exmrvfc 0]

You may start to see more of these topics come up due to the economy. Municipalities are alredy looking at layoffs to trim the budgets. At what point due taxpayers look to "layoff" the Villages? Pelham and Pelham Manor do not need to be 2 seperate entities. Larchmont, Village of Mamaroneck and Town of Mamaroneck could be one entitiy. Rye Brook and Port Chester could get back together. All of these entities have their own police Chiefs and commanding officers, they each have their own DPW, Some have Paid Fire Chiefs and all have municipal Administrators and staff. Eastchester has a town wide FD but they still have seperate Villages. Harrison has Town wide PD and DPW but 3 fire districts.

The Volunteer FD's are probably the most willing to combine out of all of these groups. It is far more likely that a Volunteer Chief would "give up his car" than the various municipal Unions would give up jobs. That is understandable as no one wants to lose their job. It really comes down to the public who is paying the tax bill. At what point do they say taxes are too high and I am willing to vote to consolidate services. They might even get better protection/service from the combined entities. The way to achieve the balance would be no lay offs at the mergers and lower the headcounts by attrition each year after that to get to "proper staffing" whatever that means to each entitiy.

[Bnechis 3,961]

The Volunteer FD's are probably the most willing to combine out of all of these groups.

I find that hard to believe. I think they will dig there heals in and scream "we've been seperate for over 100 years and everyone in town will die if you combine us".

The way to achieve the balance would be no lay offs at the mergers and lower the headcounts by attrition each year after that to get to "proper staffing" whatever that means to each entitiy.

In many cases the manning even after combining may just meet standards (or still be substandard) so dropping by attrition may not be an option.

I.e. PFD & PMFD have 6-7 onduty manning 3-4 engines & 2 ladders with 1 (average) ff per rig. If they were to merge they would need to run 2 engines & 1 ladder (at a minimum) with 2 ff's per rig. Would this improve service? Would it save $$? I believe the answer is Yes to both.

[NYMedic37 22]

Now we are getting someplace----money

In regards to the money issue, maybe if the money in Greenburgh was spread equally thruout the entire town. In otherwords, make the Town of Greenburgh including all of its villages one district with uniform coverage.

[steve shryock 0]

In regards to the money issue, maybe if the money in Greenburgh was spread equally thruout the entire town. In otherwords, make the Town of Greenburgh including all of its villages one district with uniform coverage.

The villages will lose the revenue that the town pays them. This money goes into the village's general funds and is used for whatever the village wants to.

The village's look at this money as revenue that can be allocated in what ever way they feel.

While it may be more effecient and cost effective to have a single department; the mayors & board of trustees of these villages, most likely would oppose any consolidation because 1. they lose revenue and 2. the politicians lose control. It's not the chiefs, individual companies or members that would be the hurdle but the politicians.

The villages will argue home rule and cannot be forced by the town to do this. As in the past, there are differences between the politicians of the town & villages to the point that the 6 villages are having a study done to leave the town and form another one without Greenbugh.

[Bnechis 3,961]

The villages will lose the revenue that the town pays them. This money goes into the village's general funds and is used for whatever the village wants to....The village's look at this money as revenue that can be allocated in what ever way they feel.

Does the town really pay the villages or is it that the villages develop a budget that is voted on by the village board. The town assessor then collects the money from the property owners in that village. The town may or may not provide services (like the assessors office, and others) to the villages but generally does not provide the village with additional funds. The village can allocate the money as dictated in there budget, if they want to change the allocations they must vote to do so.

This is how it is done in most towns, is it different in Greenburgh?

[steve shryock 0]

There are sections of Unincorporated Greenburgh that are not covered by Greenville, Hartsdale or Fairview. The town then contracts with the villages adjacent to those areas and pays a negotiated amount to the village for that village to provide the fire protection for those unincorporated areas. The contract is multiyear and varies from village to village.

When my father lived at 412 Benedict Ave, he was in the Glenville FPD but the responding FD was Tarrytown.

The villages do collect the village taxes. The towns issue the marriage licenses and collect the mortgage tax and the town tax then makes disbursments as necessary.

Greenburgh does NOT collect the taxes as a service for the villages

[exmrvfc 0]

I find that hard to believe. I think they will dig there heals in and scream "we've been seperate for over 100 years and everyone in town will die if you combine us".

In many cases the manning even after combining may just meet standards (or still be substandard) so dropping by attrition may not be an option.

I.e. PFD & PMFD have 6-7 onduty manning 3-4 engines & 2 ladders with 1 (average) ff per rig. If they were to merge they would need to run 2 engines & 1 ladder (at a minimum) with 2 ff's per rig. Would this improve service? Would it save $$? I believe the answer is Yes to both.

I agree with your comments on the PMFD and PFD manning as I doubt there is an "overstaffed" department in the County. I was thinking more along the lines of multiple paid chiefs (PD or FD) multiple executive officers (PD) multiple DPW heads. Mainly where there is duplication of services, especially on the adminstrative (Clerks, Treasurers, Administrators, etc) side that are duplicated among towns & villages.

[NYMedic37 22]

The villages will lose the revenue that the town pays them. This money goes into the village's general funds and is used for whatever the village wants to.

The village's look at this money as revenue that can be allocated in what ever way they feel.

While it may be more effecient and cost effective to have a single department; the mayors & board of trustees of these villages, most likely would oppose any consolidation because 1. they lose revenue and 2. the politicians lose control. It's not the chiefs, individual companies or members that would be the hurdle but the politicians.

The villages will argue home rule and cannot be forced by the town to do this. As in the past, there are differences between the politicians of the town & villages to the point that the 6 villages are having a study done to leave the town and form another one without Greenbugh.

It seems that the focus here is on who will be losing revenue rather then having uniform, professional fire coverage. I think the more importaint issue is proper fire coverage, not who's losing revenue.

[helicopper 1,050]

If the villages are using these fire protection contracts as a source of revenue and not passing the funds on to the FD, there's a real problem. Perhaps someone should look at that!

Let's not blur the focus of this thread - it's about the consolidation or regionalization of the volunteer fire service in Westchester. If someone wants to start a different thread on other disciplines or municipal governments feel free but let's keep this one on topic.

Imagine if there was a single fire protection district (or fire district) for a town encompassing as much territory as Greenburgh? Standard responses, standardized training, compatible and uniform equipment, etc.

[Guest SQUADco119]

If the villages are using these fire protection contracts as a source of revenue and not passing the funds on to the FD, there's a real problem. Perhaps someone should look at that!

Let's not blur the focus of this thread - it's about the consolidation or regionalization of the volunteer fire service in Westchester. If someone wants to start a different thread on other disciplines or municipal governments feel free but let's keep this one on topic.

Imagine if there was a single fire protection district (or fire district) for a town encompassing as much territory as Greenburgh? Standard responses, standardized training, compatible and uniform equipment, etc.

Chris192- I agree with you in the aspect that when a municipality gets money for the protection of a district that the FD should have a say atleast on reccomadations on where its spent or stored. I however disagree with you about not involving politics and local goverments, you cant help but talk about the political aspect of this. Maybe not so much on fire districts would politics play a role(I still think they would) but in a village where a Fire department is ultimately controlled by the village board Im afraid you have to consider what the upper powers would think. Im not to familar with a department that is a district with commishiners who will tend to be more understanding to the representing fire departments request and demands of spending and operations. Not to say The FD(fire chiefs) dont ahve any control they do but in a village it must be done within the budget and grants. Anything else even if its in your budget you still would have to notify the village.

*Back to the topic of discussion* Consolidating FD's makes sense only for certain areas. I dont think a village would go for this that easy. I dont think it will be easy to sell to them consolidation of a nieghboring department esp, when you already work with them. Does it make sense to some degree to consolidate yes. You can eliminate some appuratuss to save you money and it would benefit where everyone knows the rigs(they should be designed and outfitted the same in this case). But why consolidate when we already are. We train together and operate on calls together. Now Im speaking for my department and batallion. We have drills on rig overviews of our department and our niehgboring departments. We also work alot with a town to our south even though they arent in our batallion and yes we train together to.

For the most part this would only work if the whole county were to consolidate. The way it is now it seems to work just fine and gets the job done. With our department-

The manpower and rigs are sufficient and if more assetts are needed mutual aid would be called wehter it was consolidated or not. The county has to show me it could get one simple generic accounablilty system for every FD wehter paid or vollie before any consalidating could even be a thought.

[helicopper 1,050]

Chris192- I agree with you in the aspect that when a municipality gets money for the protection of a district that the FD should have a say atleast on reccomadations on where its spent or stored. I however disagree with you about not involving politics and local goverments, you cant help but talk about the political aspect of this. Maybe not so much on fire districts would politics play a role(I still think they would) but in a village where a Fire department is ultimately controlled by the village board Im afraid you have to consider what the upper powers would think. Im not to familar with a department that is a district with commishiners who will tend to be more understanding to the representing fire departments request and demands of spending and operations. Not to say The FD(fire chiefs) dont ahve any control they do but in a village it must be done within the budget and grants. Anything else even if its in your budget you still would have to notify the village.

*Back to the topic of discussion* Consolidating FD's makes sense only for certain areas. I dont think a village would go for this that easy. I dont think it will be easy to sell to them consolidation of a nieghboring department esp, when you already work with them. Does it make sense to some degree to consolidate yes. You can eliminate some appuratuss to save you money and it would benefit where everyone knows the rigs(they should be designed and outfitted the same in this case). But why consolidate when we already are. We train together and operate on calls together. Now Im speaking for my department and batallion. We have drills on rig overviews of our department and our niehgboring departments. We also work alot with a town to our south even though they arent in our batallion and yes we train together to.

For the most part this would only work if the whole county were to consolidate. The way it is now it seems to work just fine and gets the job done. With our department-

The manpower and rigs are sufficient and if more assetts are needed mutual aid would be called wehter it was consolidated or not. The county has to show me it could get one simple generic accounablilty system for every FD wehter paid or vollie before any consalidating could even be a thought.

Forgive me if I was unclear. There is without question a political dimension to this and it must be discussed. I was referring to discussing the idea of merging/consolidating local governments - that is a whole different can of worms. YES, we must discuss all the angles to this dilemma.

Thanks!

[JM15 386]

Just a thought. Maybe we should look at consolidating communications and dispatching centers first? In theory we should have one center where all 911 calls are received and from there Fire, Police and EMS should be dispatched. Then in my opinion EMS second since it seems to be hurting the most. At this point from my experience in my area fire should be closer to the bottom of the list.

[steve shryock 0]

I was replying to NYmedic37's comments about spreading the money around equally and then to Barry's question. I had no intention of going "off topic".

To talk consolidation of the departments in Greenburgh involves many agencies who already train together as a battalion multiple times a year utilizing most, if not all, the equipment in the battalion.

It's not only the FDs that need to be on board but the politics need to be addressed between 6 incorporated villages that already have a strained political relationship with the town.

There was a recent study done in merging some aspects of Dobbs PD with Greenburgh PD and there are many many residents of the village (not immediatly related with the PD) who oppose such a merger.

[ny10570 745]

My father grew up in Hastings and as long as he can remember there has been the fight over wether or not Hastings and Dobbs Ferry should share certain services. Pleasantville and Mt. Pleasant are not much different. Pleasantville is literally surrounded by Mt. Pleasant. A perfect example is Rt 117 which runs through all of Pleasantville and from Oak Hill Dr to Apple Hill Ln (less than 2/10 of a mile) is in Mt. Pleasant before you enter New Castle and there are dozens more places almost as ridiculous. Fire districts are just as twisted. There's small lot with a deli, video rental, and dry cleaner where the district line is the light poles in the middle of the lot and for a time there were few houses up off the end of Locust Rd that were Thornwood Fire District. Too many small minded people don't want to give up control over their fiefdom and too many residents just love seeing the name of their town on the trucks that drive by. Just as ask the Scarsdale folks being served by NRFD.

[ladder55 26]

forgive me for asking but i got a little lost along the way. what would be the advantage of consolodating the villages in greenburgh or any other village in westchester? it seems like things are run pretty smooth the way they are.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Just as ask the Scarsdale folks being served by NRFD.

What Scarsdale folks are being served by NRFD?

There is a small section of New Rochelle that gets its mail from the "Scarsdale" Post office so it says "Scarsdale" on there mailing address. These homes are within the city of New Rochelle, pay taxes to the city of New Rochelle, send there kids to the New Rochelle school system, and recieve all of there services from the city of New Rochelle. The only thing "Scarsdale" has to do with them is there name is on the mail and they paid 20% more to buy there house because the realator showed them the evelope.

Now for the background on the postal address: Those New Rochelle homes with "Scarsdale" addresses use to get there mail from the "Scarsdale" Post office located on Weaver St. (Rt 22) near 5 corners. This building is in Scarsdale. The USPS moved out after a fire gutted the building and it is now a dry cleaners (has been for 30+ years). The "new" post office is located in the golden horseshoe shoping center, which is located in New Rochelle. By all rights everyone in scasdale should have had to change there address to NR.........

[Bnechis 3,961]

forgive me for asking but i got a little lost along the way. what would be the advantage of consolodating the villages in greenburgh or any other village in westchester? it seems like things are run pretty smooth the way they are.

If things are running so smooth why do we hear multiple tone outs for personnel? Why does it take, 3, 4, 5, or more departments to handle a room and content fire? Why do we have depts that run with 1 firefighter per rig, but you can't go a mile in any direction without tripping over a tower ladder or a heavy rescue?

And if greenburgh's incorporated village FD's are doing so well, why after 9/11 when they were collectivly offered to get an MDU (mass decon unit) at no cost, was it the only community in the county to turn it down because "we can't handle it". Do you think they ever told the residence that?

If things are running so smooth why does no one post this: "its running so smooth here, come take a look, this is the way to solve your problems"

[JFLYNN 681]

forgive me for asking but i got a little lost along the way. what would be the advantage of consolodating the villages in greenburgh or any other village in westchester? it seems like things are run pretty smooth the way they are.

Are you serious?

[gamewell45 258]

My father grew up in Hastings and as long as he can remember there has been the fight over wether or not Hastings and Dobbs Ferry should share certain services. Pleasantville and Mt. Pleasant are not much different. Pleasantville is literally surrounded by Mt. Pleasant. A perfect example is Rt 117 which runs through all of Pleasantville and from Oak Hill Dr to Apple Hill Ln (less than 2/10 of a mile) is in Mt. Pleasant before you enter New Castle and there are dozens more places almost as ridiculous. Fire districts are just as twisted. There's small lot with a deli, video rental, and dry cleaner where the district line is the light poles in the middle of the lot and for a time there were few houses up off the end of Locust Rd that were Thornwood Fire District. Too many small minded people don't want to give up control over their fiefdom and too many residents just love seeing the name of their town on the trucks that drive by. Just as ask the Scarsdale folks being served by NRFD.

There is a quick fix for some crossover Boundary line issues. They can be moved, as in Pleasantville's case when they traded Smith Street and Mill River Road some years back with Chappaqua Fire District for area's in the Hardscrabble Fire Protection district. Your right in that in most cases, it comes down to control over their empire if you will and "home rule" mentality that isn't likely to change in our lifetimes.

[firecapt32 282]

Just letting you guys know the whole Greenville Fire district has Scarsdale as the mailing adress---go figure.

[firecapt32 282]

As for the Town of Greenburgh I may be wrong (and feel free to correct me if I am) but the Villages receiving the payment for services for the fire protection districts ie Glenville that village would be Tarrytown, they are only allowed by law to give the FD 37% of that money the rest of the money can be used in the general budget. so you all can do the math IF the town of Greenburgh pays Tarrytown $100,000.00 to cover Glenville hmmm a whole lot got into the general fund. so politicians do have a conciderable say in the matter of consolidation.

I do believe that centeral dispatching is one key element that should be considered as a starting point--second should be automatic duel responses to high life hazards --schools-hospitals-nursing homes, my house you get the idea. Third might be centralized training, in general everyone has to be on the same page so that the page can be turned.

You need a true study of alarms-response times-manpower-training-apparatus to get things started

[ladder55 26]

If things are running so smooth why do we hear multiple tone outs for personnel? Why does it take, 3, 4, 5, or more departments to handle a room and content fire? Why do we have depts that run with 1 firefighter per rig, but you can't go a mile in any direction without tripping over a tower ladder or a heavy rescue?

And if greenburgh's incorporated village FD's are doing so well, why after 9/11 when they were collectivly offered to get an MDU (mass decon unit) at no cost, was it the only community in the county to turn it down because "we can't handle it". Do you think they ever told the residence that?

If things are running so smooth why does no one post this: "its running so smooth here, come take a look, this is the way to solve your problems"

like i said.. i got a little lost along the way.using elmsford as an example how would consolidating just say elmsford, ardsly, dobbs, irvington, and tarrytown help? would it not be the same as having 3,4,5, or more depts responding to a room and contents fire?

[Guest SQUADco119]

If things are running so smooth why do we hear multiple tone outs for personnel? Why does it take, 3, 4, 5, or more departments to handle a room and content fire? Why do we have depts that run with 1 firefighter per rig, but you can't go a mile in any direction without tripping over a tower ladder or a heavy rescue?

And if greenburgh's incorporated village FD's are doing so well, why after 9/11 when they were collectivly offered to get an MDU (mass decon unit) at no cost, was it the only community in the county to turn it down because "we can't handle it". Do you think they ever told the residence that?

If things are running so smooth why does no one post this: "its running so smooth here, come take a look, this is the way to solve your problems"

What works for one department may not work for the other. Im just curious you have alot to say about other departments but never yours it seems like. Lets here a little how yours works. What department are your from? Is it consolidated with others? If so Does it work well and how. Do you speak from personal expierence with consolidation of your FD and others? And if so what is your manpower status before the consolidation and after? How many rigs do you have etc? Please elighten me!!!!! Pay attention people we might learn something.

I will say I agree with you that it makes no since to run an FD with 1 FF per rig.

[helicopper 1,050]

We have virtually no examples of consolidation to speak of, at least in our area. But if you look to the south and west many places are served by "County Fire Departments" in all areas not covered by a "City Fire Department" and while those areas are geographically and socioeconomically different, they have a single command structure, single communications structure, standardized training and equipment, comprehensive response plans, and economies of scale. And not having a great example to turn to isn't a reason not to try it - we may become the example for others to follow. Someone has to be first after all!

Ironically, I haven't heard of any cries for layoffs or cuts in those areas but we're suffering from it right now - and it will only get worse.

If you think you're exempt because you're a volunteer service and don't have big payroll expenses in your tax bill you may be surprised when taxpayers start challenging the softest target on their tax bill - the FD. Just a premonition but it could become a reality. Just talk to our colleauges in Millwood who have been trying to build a new firehouse for what, years?

[Bnechis 3,961]

like i said.. i got a little lost along the way.using elmsford as an example how would consolidating just say elmsford, ardsly, dobbs, irvington, and tarrytown help? would it not be the same as having 3,4,5, or more depts responding to a room and contents fire?

Instead of sending multiple rigs per department and multiple departments to get 20-30 members if each community concentrates on getting proper manning per unit, less rigs (depts) are needed to get the same manpower on the scene and thus it is more effective. 6 rigs (3E, 2L, 1R + 2 chiefs) with 4 each would be sufficent. since the 6 depts have 17 eng, 7 lad, 2 rescues, 18 Chiefs, (approx) why would you need either so many depts or so many rigs?

Note: this does not include 6 additional engines, 3 ladders & a rescue in the unincorporated portion of town.

This is for a town with a population of 90,467 in 30.5 sq miles

For comparison, Yonkers has 11 fewer engines, 4 fewer ladders and 1 fewer rescues but has more than twice the population (196,086) in 18 square miles.

[Bnechis 3,961]

We have virtually no examples of consolidation to speak of, at least in our area.

North Hudson Regional Fire & Rescue merged Guttenberg, North Bergen, Weehawken, West New York and Union City in 1999

While further away Cherry Hill NJ also consolidated a number of smaller departments into a regional dept.

And back in time Brooklyn & Manhattan also consolidated.

[Bnechis 3,961]

What works for one department may not work for the other.

Very true. Its amazing how many of the same problems exist in all departments and how large portions outside the northeast (both in the US and overseas) use different approaches that we are unwilling to even consider because we've always done it this way

Im just curious you have alot to say about other departments but never yours it seems like. Lets here a little how yours works. What department are your from?

Lets see a show of hands...All EMTBravo members who've seen me post about my department? I suspect I've posted close to 100.

My profile says I'm from New Rochelle and thats my dept. for the vast majority of EMTBravo members who do not know.

NRFD works just fine. Could it have better manning?....YES.... are we working on it?....... Yes.....have we increased manpower in the last three years?...yes

Is it consolidated with others? If so Does it work well and how.

Actually it is. In 1899 the village of New Rochelle Fire Department was merged with the Town of New Rochelle Fire Dept. They increased manning, while maintaining the "horse power".

NRFD along with 9 other departments have undertaken a long term study into the concept of merging. The study is almost completed (some additional financials were requested by the communities involved) and was paid for by the state of NY and performed by the Michalean Institute of Pace Univ.

The mapping portion showed that by reducing the total number of apparatus, manning on every fire call improved (in some communities dramatically) and all National standards could be met and ISO rating would improve in most if not all communities.

Do you speak from personal expierence with consolidation of your FD and others?

While my dept has not consolidated within my lifetime. I have spent extensive time studying consolidation with depts that have. During undergrad, I studied at Morton-on-Marsh (the fire college of Great Britton) and how the fire service in England, Scotland, Wales & N.Ireland consolidated from over 500 depts to approx 60. I also spent time studying the consolidated systems in Germany & France.

During graduate work I studied a number of consolidations in Fla., OR., NJ and SC. My capstone (masters thesis) is on consolidation in Westchester.

And if so what is your manpower status before the consolidation and after? How many rigs do you have etc? Please elighten me!!!!! Pay attention people we might learn something.

As Chris192 mentioned, there are no current consolidated depts in Westchester....Yet.

This is just one of the many contributing factors to Westchesters ranking as the #1 taxed county in America.

[ny10570 745]

squadco, you should pay more attention. The good captain is an excellent source of information who has no problem putting his dept out there in the same ways he talks about other depts.

[grumpyff 1,159]

Consolidation can be done, it just has to studied, and effectively planned out. The ball needs to get rolling . And to those that say it can't be done, or its not needed, one just has to look back to 1995, when the NYPD, the Transit Police, and the Housing Police, effectively consolidated into one department, the NYPD. Some of the old Transit cops I work with have all said that the merger was talked about for years, but no one ever really took it seriously, until the "Hostile Takeover" as the Transit guys called it, actually happened. At the time Transit PD, was the fourth or fifth largest police department in NYS.