Patriotic helmet needs to go, Fire Chief says

[x635 4,066]

Patriotic helmet needs to go, Newton Fire Chief says

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/regional...otic_helme.html

[NYMedic37 22]

The helmet is a beautiful design, very patriotic and boosts morale. The fire chief should reconsider his decesion. There's no harm being done by having an American flag painted on your helmet.

[IzzyEng4 427]

Read the comments, a lot of support for the firefighter who owns the helmet.

[DFD801 0]

The guy received lots of support for his helmet but the fact is the Chief is 100% correct in his statements and decision. First of all, the helmet is a part of the uniform, with rules and regulations, and no firefighter should be altering his uniform, regardless of how good his intention is.

Second, and more importantly, this helmet is an improper way to display the American Flag. This isn't only my opinion, this is according to Section 8 of the Flag Code of the United States. This brother is a military veteran and should know better. It was stated in the arcticle that the Dept. allows small stickers on the helmet, so the proper thing for him to do if he wants to show his patriotism is to get a flag decal and wear it properly.

I provided a link to the flag code for you to read. Once you do you'll see just how much our flag is disrespected and improperly displayed on a daily basis. People think they have the right to paint red, white and blue with stars and stripes on whatever they want in the name of patriotism but actually noone, including war veterans, firemen, cops, etc. has the right to change the way the flag should be properly displayed.

It represents our country, the greatest country on this planet. It should be given the utmost honor and respect.

flag code - http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagcode.htm

other interesting info - http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html

[NYMedic37 22]

The guy received lots of support for his helmet but the fact is the Chief is 100% correct in his statements and decision. First of all, the helmet is a part of the uniform, with rules and regulations, and no firefighter should be altering his uniform, regardless of how good his intention is.

Second, and more importantly, this helmet is an improper way to display the American Flag. This isn't only my opinion, this is according to Section 8 of the Flag Code of the United States. This brother is a military veteran and should know better. It was stated in the arcticle that the Dept. allows small stickers on the helmet, so the proper thing for him to do if he wants to show his patriotism is to get a flag decal and wear it properly.

I provided a link to the flag code for you to read. Once you do you'll see just how much our flag is disrespected and improperly displayed on a daily basis. People think they have the right to paint red, white and blue with stars and stripes on whatever they want in the name of patriotism but actually noone, including war veterans, firemen, cops, etc. has the right to change the way the flag should be properly displayed.

It represents our country, the greatest country on this planet. It should be given the utmost honor and respect.

flag code - http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagcode.htm

other interesting info - http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html

It doesn't appear that the firefighter in question mean't any disrespect.

[DFD801 0]

It doesn't appear that the firefighter in question mean't any disrespect.

I'm not saying he intentionally means any disrespect at all. In fact it's just the opposite. This guy is a war vet and wants to show his patriotism. He did a nice job on the helmet and I'm sure he wears it proudly. What I'm saying is that eventhough he has all the good intentions in the world, the U.S. Flag has specific rules and regs in which it should be displayed, and this helmet violates that. This is fact and it doesn't matter what anyone's opinion is on the matter.

[ny10570 745]

I agree with DFD. His intentions are great, but I have to side with the Chief. Especially as the helmets starts to see some fire duty and becomes damaged.

[abaduck 123]

Second, and more importantly, this helmet is an improper way to display the American Flag. This isn't only my opinion, this is according to Section 8 of the Flag Code of the United States. This brother is a military veteran and should know better. It was stated in the arcticle that the Dept. allows small stickers on the helmet, so the proper thing for him to do if he wants to show his patriotism is to get a flag decal and wear it properly.

That thought had occurred to me too... but if you look at the helmet, it's not really a flag at all, it's painted red white and blue with stylized elements of flag. I think that's far enough from a real flag, or representation of one, to not be covered by the Flag Code?

I'd be more interested to know why it's an issue now, after apparently being accepted with no problem for three years.

Mike

[JBE 328]

It's a great looking helmet, but he has to play by the rules set forth by the department. How about a flag sticker, and/or a sticker from his branch of military service on a regular helmet.

[DR104 141]

The guy received lots of support for his helmet but the fact is the Chief is 100% correct in his statements and decision. First of all, the helmet is a part of the uniform, with rules and regulations, and no firefighter should be altering his uniform, regardless of how good his intention is.

Second, and more importantly, this helmet is an improper way to display the American Flag. This isn't only my opinion, this is according to Section 8 of the Flag Code of the United States. This brother is a military veteran and should know better. It was stated in the arcticle that the Dept. allows small stickers on the helmet, so the proper thing for him to do if he wants to show his patriotism is to get a flag decal and wear it properly.

I provided a link to the flag code for you to read. Once you do you'll see just how much our flag is disrespected and improperly displayed on a daily basis. People think they have the right to paint red, white and blue with stars and stripes on whatever they want in the name of patriotism but actually noone, including war veterans, firemen, cops, etc. has the right to change the way the flag should be properly displayed.

It represents our country, the greatest country on this planet. It should be given the utmost honor and respect.

flag code - http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagcode.htm

other interesting info - http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html

I agree 100% After 911 Flags were all over and that was great!!!! But what i saw was people not knowing how and when to fly them. At night with no light on them, In the rain and the best is when they have the Union(stars) on the wrong side. The one thing thats gets me pissed off is, if you buy a flag MAKE SURE IT WAS MADE IN THE USA!!!!!!! Was at Stews looking at a flag and it said made in China!! Come on now!!!!!

Edited December 17, 2008 by DR104

[IzzyEng4 427]

DFD,

I agree 100% with with you about displaying the flag properly, I disagree with what the chief is doing because he has let go for 3 years now and now he is making a stink about it? Kinda set a precedent there.

Now on the other hand, since both gentlemen are both veterans and both should know what the proper way of displaying our country's flag. This should have been addressed from the start and if it was a problem then it should have been brought up when the firefighter had the painting done and also should have approached by that firefighter's company officer. Another problem is that there is nothing (according to several articles and posts from other sights) what they can or cannot do with their helmets and I would assume this includes the painting of the crown red to denote you are with a truck company.

Now as we all know the papers love to beat up the Boston area departments that is what they have done for the 400+ years the area has been a settlement. Also we all know the bad press and the lack of telling the complete story the Boston area faced lately.

Another unfortunate thing is the act for displaying the flag, it has been improperly shown in different ways for God know how many years and its never going to stop. There's no laws pertaining to the proper showing, just the proper guidelines set out as you have made links to. Its never going to stop unfortunately. People are going to express their pride in the county in one why or another and nothing is going to stop them because we have the right of freedom of expression and people take that towards presenting the flag as well.

Back to the main point, there is going to have to be some sort of overhaul of NFD's uniform / bunker gear code.

[gamewell45 258]

Patriotic helmet needs to go, Newton Fire Chief says

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/regional...otic_helme.html

I'd much rather let them put an American flag on their helmets as opposed to the wingnuts who put their helmets into ovens and/or burnish them with a blow torch to acheive the "desired" effect.

[texastom791 31]

He should just paint it black and if he still wants a flag on it then put a sticker like this on it. http://www.powercallsirens.com/detail.aspx?ID=14673

Edited December 17, 2008 by texastom791

[NYMedic37 22]

That thought had occurred to me too... but if you look at the helmet, it's not really a flag at all, it's painted red white and blue with stylized elements of flag. I think that's far enough from a real flag, or representation of one, to not be covered by the Flag Code?

I'd be more interested to know why it's an issue now, after apparently being accepted with no problem for three years.

Mike

Very good point. So he's not violating any rules regarding the American flag.

[NYMedic37 22]

It's a great looking helmet, but he has to play by the rules set forth by the department. How about a flag sticker, and/or a sticker from his branch of military service on a regular helmet.

Yea, but if you're gonna' "play by the rules" then is a flag sticker or a sticker from his branch of the military part of the official uniform? It seems to be a double edge sword. Maybe the rules should be relaxed a bit....... Food for thought.

[JRS2817 1]

All I got to say is that is amazing looking helmet

[M' Ave 1,466]

It's a beautiful helmet, but it belongs on a mantel.

This is his profession and he has to abide by the uniform code. Firemen where black helmets, Chiefs, white. That is a far more blatant violation of the rules than a sticker.

I don't even think we should be talking about codes in regard to the flag. It doesn't even need to get to that. That is just pushing the rules too far and the Fire Chief is 100% correct in ordering it not to be used.

[DonMoose 3]

The guy received lots of support for his helmet but the fact is the Chief is 100% correct in his statements and decision. First of all, the helmet is a part of the uniform, with rules and regulations, and no firefighter should be altering his uniform, regardless of how good his intention is.

Second, and more importantly, this helmet is an improper way to display the American Flag. This isn't only my opinion, this is according to Section 8 of the Flag Code of the United States. This brother is a military veteran and should know better. It was stated in the arcticle that the Dept. allows small stickers on the helmet, so the proper thing for him to do if he wants to show his patriotism is to get a flag decal and wear it properly.

I provided a link to the flag code for you to read. Once you do you'll see just how much our flag is disrespected and improperly displayed on a daily basis. People think they have the right to paint red, white and blue with stars and stripes on whatever they want in the name of patriotism but actually noone, including war veterans, firemen, cops, etc. has the right to change the way the flag should be properly displayed.

It represents our country, the greatest country on this planet. It should be given the utmost honor and respect.

flag code - http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagcode.htm

other interesting info - http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html

I agree with you 100% - It's not allowed by uniform code, get rid of it. Rules are rules.

[NYMedic37 22]

Right or wrong it seems to be very minor issue. Why go to war with a firefighter over this. It seems to me that this will only create a morale issue and the chief should worry about more importaint things.

[x129K 1,393]

Right or wrong it seems to be very minor issue. Why go to war with a firefighter over this. It seems to me that this will only create a morale issue and the chief should worry about more importaint things.

Why go to war? To stop any further action in the bud....like guys alreasy posted - what next - Irish flag colors? Canadian Flag?

I love the lid, but rules is rules..

[Doc 11]

Any comment on these?

Sure looks like a flag to me... therefore... violates the Flag Code...

Looks like a flag to me... another violation.

It's red, white and blue, and has one star... This advertisement violates the Flag Rule.

Besides being a violation of the flag code, this might be a trademark violation against Ford...

This is the Cuban flag... Red, white, and blue, with a star... all the makings of an American flag according to the Flag Rules... I'm not gonna respect it though...

How about a picture taken of a person with a flag in the background? Is the picture therefore a violation since it would be a representation of a flag with another image on top of it?

Where is the line drawn between a patriotic motif and a flag?

It would seem to me that the application of red white and blue paint and stars to an object constitutes a flag since anybody would/ could say it looks like a flag. HINT: Look at section 3 of the flag code...

"Any person who, within the District of Columbia, in any manner, for exhibition or display, shall place or cause to be placed any word, figure, mark, picture, design, drawing, or any advertisement of any nature upon any flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America; or shall expose or cause to be exposed to public view any such flag, standard, colors, or ensign upon which shall have been printed, painted, or otherwise placed, or to which shall be attached, appended, affixed, or annexed any word, figure, mark, picture, design, or drawing, or any advertisement of any nature; or who, within the District of Columbia, shall manufacture, sell, expose for sale, or to public view, or give away or have in possession for sale, or to be given away or for use for any purpose, any article or substance being an article of merchandise, or a receptacle for merchandise or article or thing for carrying or transporting merchandise, upon which shall have been printed, painted, attached, or otherwise placed a representation of any such flag, standard, colors, or ensign, to advertise, call attention to, decorate, mark, or distinguish the article or substance on which so placed shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine not exceeding $100 or by imprisonment for not more than thirty days, or both, in the discretion of the court. The words "flag, standard, colors, or ensign", as used herein, shall include any flag, standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or representation of either, or of any part or parts of either, made of any substance or represented on any substance, of any size evidently purporting to be either of said flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America or a picture or a representation of either, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and the stripes, in any number of either thereof, or of any part or parts of either, by which the average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America."

SOURCE - http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagcode.htm

Now get ready... this will piss some people off..

IT DOESN'T SAY WHAT YOU THINK IT DOES. Say it with me, "...within the District of Columbia..." Not in Washington D.C.? Not a violation according to the wording of the flag code (USC Title 4, Chapter 1).

Sorry. I didn't write it. I DID read it though. Check EVERY legal source on it, it reads the same. If you can show otherwise, please do. As far as I can see, the issues are with wearing an actual flag, not neccessarily a red, white, blue, with stars article of clothes. Similarly, draping a flag on a vehicle is a violation, but painting a vehicle red, white, and blue with stars is not a violation.

I think this firefighter's heart is in the right place (as were the owners of the fire truck and car above) but this firefighter needs to respect his uniform and what it means. By Section 8, he should have used a flag sticker on a standard black helmet. As for respecting the flag. I think there is a rational expectation of what desecration of the flag means - in Washington DC or not.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Doc

[INIT915 1,119]

That's why most of us workin the 'Uniform Services'. Clearly his intentions were right, but what about the next guy who wants to put somthing a little more risque? How do tell the next guy his image is over the line?

[M' Ave 1,466]

Right or wrong it seems to be very minor issue. Why go to war with a firefighter over this. It seems to me that this will only create a morale issue and the chief should worry about more importaint things.

A Chief never has to "go to war" with a fireman. This is not a democracy, it's a para-military organization. You do what you are ORDERED to do. As long as the chief is not breaking the law or a labor contract, YOU DO WHAT YOU'RE ARE TOLD AND YOU DON'T GET TO ASK QUESTIONS.

[Guest]

Rules are Rules but why wait 3 years to enforce????

[Remember585 815]

Rules are Rules but why wait 3 years to enforce????

Slow day?

It's a beautiful helmet and as others said, it should be hung up. If I were the Chief I would ask this FF if he would mind letting me put his helmet somewhere for people to see - like in the foyer of Fire HQ or in a glass case to keep it from getting ruined.

He has worn it 3 years and I think if the rule says no, then no. But don't paint it!!!! Leave it as is, preserve it and hang it somewhere for others to see. It's something that not only the FF should be proud of, but as a Chief why not let others see that thing?!

So many people are falling into the believe that it is a democracy. Less orders are being followed, more orders are questioned, why would anyone want to be a leader anymore? You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

While talking about helmets (and all PPE for that matter) if a member has their own stuff, doesn't it still have to be in compliance with all department rules, NFPA and OSHA requirements?

I'm out...

[JCESU 20]

I am sure that if researched on the local level we'll come to find out that some sort of politics played a role in the chief deciding to enforce the rules and regs regarding the helmet. However, unless the order is unlawful, he must obey the order. The FF is doing his dept. a dis-service in challenging the chief on this issue as it pertains to morale and many other issues. No matter how minute the issue may be... it's not the FF's place to decide. Its not a particluar battle I would pick to fight and ultimately the FF is not going to win. And for his trouble he gets?...

[MoFire390 118]

the guy did his research tho. if it didnt say it in the SOG's then why not?? it looks pretty cool to me. and the stars are even going the correct way. However, on the other had what does the NFPA say about things like this?? does the paint he use break down the structre of the helmet? is the saftey contract now void?

Find it hard to believe that DEC. 7 isnt on the time and occasions for display (section 6) section.

Edited December 20, 2008 by MoFire390