Paramedics accused of molesting patients

[mikeinet 37]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28179848/

Over the past 18 months, at least 129 ambulance attendants across the U.S. have been accused of sex-related crimes on duty or off, an investigation by The Associated Press found. Some of them molested patients in the back of an ambulance.

"It's a dream job for a sexual predator," said Greg Kafoury, a Portland, Ore., lawyer who represents three women who were groped by a paramedic. "Everything is there: Women who are incapacitated, so they're hugely distracted. Medical cover to put your hands in places where, in any other context, a predator would be immediately recognized as such."

While I understand there are some MAJOR sickos among us in our profession... I feel like the way this article protrays EMS is that we are all out to have some 'extra fun' with our patients.

SIGH.......

[DonMoose 3]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28179848/

While I understand there are some MAJOR sickos among us in our profession... I feel like the way this article protrays EMS is that we are all out to have some 'extra fun' with our patients.

SIGH.......

Aside from those sickos, everybody's looking to sue someone. EMTs/Paramedics can't even do their jobs to the fullest because of nonsense like this. Off-duty is another story.:angry:

Edited December 11, 2008 by DonMoose

[JackEMT 77]

Sex related crimes are serious, but the article does say, on and off duty, so not all the cases are patients

[frenchie477 2]

In the case of patients- I always make it a point to give the county and update of arrival at the hospital and mileage if it's a male crew and female patient. Try cover myself and my crew best I can. IF, all those remarks made in the article are false. If they're real, those responsible need to be put away. It's hard enough to do our jobs and have a patient trust your capable of doing your job and people like this only make it harder. :angry:

[Guest alsfirefighter]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28179848/

While I understand there are some MAJOR sickos among us in our profession... I feel like the way this article protrays EMS is that we are all out to have some 'extra fun' with our patients.

SIGH.......

I didn't particularly take it as they were portraying all providers in that light, but you're going to get your impression and I will get mine. It did highlight the fact that there is a problem and he does what all reporters jobs are to do. He sensationalized the article to make it sound more common place then it is. 129 providers, while to me is sick and flat out criminal statistically is not a grand number if you were to factor in the amount of providers out there and the amount of calls with patient contact on a daily basis in the country.

EMTs/Paramedics can't even do their jobs to the fullest because of nonsense like this.

Who can't? I do my job to the fullest every single day. Anyone who practices with the litigation, the sky is falling cloud over their head is determined to make mistakes or not do the best for their patient. Protecting yourself is not that hard. Patients are not stupid and have the right to make informed decisions on their behalf. Explain to them everything your going to do so there is no confusion. If they refuse and it is critical for your assessment explain that to them. If they refuse then you have to find another solution or do the best you can. If they have chest pain, tell them that you are going to palpate their chest, but lets keep in mind you're not there to grab their breast. How many times has any of us had to deal with a large breast when placing EKG leads? Do it in an appropriate manner (lift it with the back of your hand) after you explain to them what you have to do will limit your problems. Gyno problem? Unless its child birth or an impaled object you often do not need to come close to that area. Internal exams are above our level of practice and if a woman is in labor most could give 2 craps if your looking there or not if your helping them "get the damn thing out"."

So in the end...do your job to the fullest....and you won't have any issues in either direction. Accusations or lack of appropriate care.

[DonMoose 3]

Who can't? I do my job to the fullest every single day. Anyone who practices with the litigation, the sky is falling cloud over their head is determined to make mistakes or not do the best for their patient. Protecting yourself is not that hard. Patients are not stupid and have the right to make informed decisions on their behalf. Explain to them everything your going to do so there is no confusion. If they refuse and it is critical for your assessment explain that to them. If they refuse then you have to find another solution or do the best you can. If they have chest pain, tell them that you are going to palpate their chest, but lets keep in mind you're not there to grab their breast. How many times has any of us had to deal with a large breast when placing EKG leads? Do it in an appropriate manner (lift it with the back of your hand) after you explain to them what you have to do will limit your problems. Gyno problem? Unless its child birth or an impaled object you often do not need to come close to that area. Internal exams are above our level of practice and if a woman is in labor most could give 2 craps if your looking there or not if your helping them "get the damn thing out"."

Not that the job can't be done to the fullest, just the thought that you can be accused of wrong doing when in fact you're just doing your job. that the world we live in. I'm a relatively new EMT, and that thought is always running through my mind. I've been able to keep that under control for the most part and get done what needs to be done, but for some people it could lead them to make mistakes just because they're nervous/uncomfortable.

So in the end...do your job to the fullest....and you won't have any issues in either direction. Accusations or lack of appropriate care.

Agreed 100%

Edited December 11, 2008 by DonMoose

[pd125 0]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28179848/

While I understand there are some MAJOR sickos among us in our profession... I feel like the way this article protrays EMS is that we are all out to have some 'extra fun' with our patients.

SIGH.......

The question should be how many people are transported and nothing happen. The lawyer who has a lawsuit working will paint all EMS as a bunch of perves. The question is how much of a % of rest of the population are sex abusers. EMS must not tolerate this behavior but they must also protect the workers.

[JBE 328]

How much longer before that guy from MSNBC shows up??

"Why don't you have a seat??"

[E58RET 24]

197 patients out of 300 million people ? lAny body in the health field knows to be apprpriate with female pts. My only advice CYA starting mileage and time and arrival time

[JBE 328]

Isn't that done anyway on ACR's???

[Just a guy 493]

this is the same situation as we see in yonkers with civilian complaints, the number of complaints in contrast to the number of arrest and the number of citizen contacts is less than 1 percent, just like this article, it's a minute number of complaints in regards to the number of patients treated and transported. They are all looking for a payday and with bottom feeders like jonathan lovitt practicing law they will be able to file their law suits unfortunately.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

129 ambulance attendants? It is unfortunate that they did not mention the total number of EMTs in America, AMR alone has almost 20,000, which works out to be about .6%. Lets assume, just for arguements' sake, there are 200,000 EMTs in the country. Thats .06%. Granted, even that number is higher than any of us want it to be, but the fearmongerers over at MSNBC are using it to try to instill fear and panic. I hate the media sometimes.

Edited December 12, 2008 by SageVigiles

[NYMedic37 22]

I try to have the driver put the transport mileage (to and arrival) and transport time (to and arrival) at the hospital on the radio so its on tape. This provides a time frame and mileage frame to help reduce exposure to there type of patients. Also, If you can have a female Police Officer, family member or EMT/Paramedic in the back of the rig, that's best. Make sure that the patient is covered up with blankets, sheets, etc. and limit the amount of physical contact. Be sure to ask permission and explain certain medical procedures PRIOR to performing them such as a 12 lead EKG or a GYN exam.

[tunaFish 0]

I didn't particularly take it as they were portraying all providers in that light, but you're going to get your impression and I will get mine. It did highlight the fact that there is a problem and he does what all reporters jobs are to do. He sensationalized the article to make it sound more common place then it is. 129 providers, while to me is sick and flat out criminal statistically is not a grand number if you were to factor in the amount of providers out there and the amount of calls with patient contact on a daily basis in the country.

Who can't? I do my job to the fullest every single day. Anyone who practices with the litigation, the sky is falling cloud over their head is determined to make mistakes or not do the best for their patient. Protecting yourself is not that hard. Patients are not stupid and have the right to make informed decisions on their behalf. Explain to them everything your going to do so there is no confusion. If they refuse and it is critical for your assessment explain that to them. If they refuse then you have to find another solution or do the best you can. If they have chest pain, tell them that you are going to palpate their chest, but lets keep in mind you're not there to grab their breast. How many times has any of us had to deal with a large breast when placing EKG leads? Do it in an appropriate manner (lift it with the back of your hand) after you explain to them what you have to do will limit your problems. Gyno problem? Unless its child birth or an impaled object you often do not need to come close to that area. Internal exams are above our level of practice and if a woman is in labor most could give 2 craps if your looking there or not if your helping them "get the damn thing out"."

So in the end...do your job to the fullest....and you won't have any issues in either direction. Accusations or lack of appropriate care.

"Get the damn thing out"..Wow...a human life...and that's how you approach it? Hmmmmmmmmmmm Poor wording

[pd125 0]

"Get the damn thing out"..Wow...a human life...and that's how you approach it? Hmmmmmmmmmmm Poor wording

MSNBC took the word for word story off the AP http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/SEX...EMPLATE=DEFAULT

Send the bad ones to prision and never tolerate that behavior. Turn them in.

[NYMedic37 22]

I didn't particularly take it as they were portraying all providers in that light, but you're going to get your impression and I will get mine. It did highlight the fact that there is a problem and he does what all reporters jobs are to do. He sensationalized the article to make it sound more common place then it is. 129 providers, while to me is sick and flat out criminal statistically is not a grand number if you were to factor in the amount of providers out there and the amount of calls with patient contact on a daily basis in the country.

Who can't? I do my job to the fullest every single day. Anyone who practices with the litigation, the sky is falling cloud over their head is determined to make mistakes or not do the best for their patient. Protecting yourself is not that hard. Patients are not stupid and have the right to make informed decisions on their behalf. Explain to them everything your going to do so there is no confusion. If they refuse and it is critical for your assessment explain that to them. If they refuse then you have to find another solution or do the best you can. If they have chest pain, tell them that you are going to palpate their chest, but lets keep in mind you're not there to grab their breast. How many times has any of us had to deal with a large breast when placing EKG leads? Do it in an appropriate manner (lift it with the back of your hand) after you explain to them what you have to do will limit your problems. Gyno problem? Unless its child birth or an impaled object you often do not need to come close to that area. Internal exams are above our level of practice and if a woman is in labor most could give 2 craps if your looking there or not if your helping them "get the damn thing out"."

So in the end...do your job to the fullest....and you won't have any issues in either direction. Accusations or lack of appropriate care.

ALSFF --- I agree with your way of handling a woman with a large breast and placement of the 12 lead EKG electrodes/cables by using the back of your hand, especially after explaining and getting her consent to the procedure. In regards to the GYN exam, in some cases you must examine the patient. Again, explain the procedure and gain her consent, then perform the exam quickly and professionally. I have delivered several kids over the years, delt with patients that have had miscarriages, some with severe GYN hemorrages so sometimes you must perform a GYN exam. I once had a 30 year old patient that had a life threatening GYN bleed. Oxygen, leg elevated in the shock position, 2 large bore IV's wide open and several gyn pads applied for direct pressure. At one time or another during a person's EMS career, you have to deal with these situations.

[ny10570 745]

"Get the damn thing out"..Wow...a human life...and that's how you approach it? Hmmmmmmmmmmm Poor wording

Yeah, thats about the phrasing I usually hear from moms in labor. While not always in English or without profanity, that is the general sentiment.

To the people who insist on giving out mileage and times when transporting unescorted females, what exactly are you hoping to prevent? First, there is nothing stopping a male from making the same accusations. If you were accused of fondling a woman the distance you travel and the time it takes you to get there don't matter. All it shows is how well you manage your time. Taking a wrong turn or getting stuck in traffic doesn't make you any more or less susceptible to false charges. What matters is what you do and why you do it.

[Guest Yankee medic]

If it's a female and my partner is a male I get my partner in the back of the bus and do what I need to do with 2 people back there so I've got a witness to everything that was done and DOCUMENT what was done. If you get a complaint by a female men have no leg to stand on, evan if we are doing our job correctly and explain what you are going to do. If all this is true string the b@stards up. They are making life for the good people very hard.

[ckroll 101]

"Get the damn thing out"..Wow...a human life...and that's how you approach it? Hmmmmmmmmmmm Poor wording

Never done a delivery have you? That's not an approach, that's a quote from 'mom'.

There are almost no reasons to approach or expose a patient's genitals in the prehospital environment. In the rare event that one does find the need, the same rules apply that apply to every time we touch a patient. "I need to......., may I........."? Be it an IV or a blood pressure, the only time we have permission to touch a patient in any capacity without express permission is if they are unconscious.

As for the 'popular' press, ignore it and do your job.

[MerlinMedic 5]

We also need to advocate for ourselves. This includes self policing. The background checks that FDs have to do are for arson only. EMS does not have a law that mandates any sort of background check. We need to check for those with lite fingers, Roamin' hands, DWI, and I am sure that there are other areas that my cafine depraved brain has forgotten.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

"Get the damn thing out"..Wow...a human life...and that's how you approach it? Hmmmmmmmmmmm Poor wording

Poor wording or lack of understanding of the english language and phonics on your part. Take a look again champ...its in quotations and then think about what the means in english literary terms. Before you jump on anyone about how they approach it (in your opinion)...you might want to understand context. Like I can understand the context that you've never been put in that position, nor any position of the decisions that effect human life like I have to. Read my other posts pal before you step out on the ledge like you did and ask around. Any provider that works with me or those I have trained will tell you I treat my profession as both a firefighter and paramedic as an utmost professional. I treat my patients with patience, compassion and their needs come first. So hmmmmmm.... Wilie Coyote...I think your ledge just slipped. I replied to your comment...will you?

NYMedic...I'm with you brother. I thought I spelled out in my post about it that there is only a few occassions that you need to observe that area. I didn't think I used or implied the never thought but if I did that wasn't my intention and thank you for pointing that out.

[NWFDMedic 58]

All of my female partners know how to do a 12 lead EKG and if there is the opportunity for me to let a female provider that I trust do the potentially uncomfortable procedure, I will make sure it happens. I had a call a few months ago where I wanted a female patient's bleeding assessed and we quickly cleared the room, my female partner checked, and she gave me her assessment.

However, the threat of a lawsuit would never stop me from doing my job. I will take precautions as necessary (gloves, back of hand procedure for EKG, etc., etc.) and I will inform my patient what I'm doing, but that's first for the comfort of the patient and second to protect myself. Most female patients are a lot more comfortable with males performing procedures than male patients are of a female provider performing procedures. Female patients are also a lot more in tune to what's appropriate and what's not. Remember, most females visit a GYN regularly and with the exception of a couple once-in-a-lifetime procedures during childbirth, there is never a reason to get so involved as their GYN does. (My guess is if you are stuck going up to the operating room with your hand protecting the baby, the mother will probably vouch for the necessity of the procedure.)

[Goose 188]

Stiffer background checks need to be done - no questions about that.

But this is an absolutely terribly written article that, from where i sit, says all EMS providers are pedophiles or molesters. Just look at the comments from MSNBC...its absolutely disgusting what people are calling for/saying.

The worst part of it all we have no one common voice that can take this moron author(s) to town and advocate for majority of solid individuals working EMS. Thats the saddest part of this whole thing.

As far as the whole physical exam with patients. I and everyone i work with ALWAYS goes over what we want to do in terms of assessments and treatments and why we want to do them. If I'm with my female partners they always rise to the occasion and either preform the assessment while i'm outside or in another room or ride the job in. Always. I ALWAYS give the mileage and destination and, especially with minors (males or females) i try to have someone (parent, sister/brother of age, teacher, etc.) escort them.

[NWFDMedic 58]

Personally, I think mileage is a waste of radio traffic but I understand it's policy for some agencies. I already know it takes 17 miles, we'll say, to get from the City of Beacon to St. Francis. Giving the mileage only implies that I can give 2 fake numbers on the radio, it doesn't account for the time or what you did during that time; it doesn't even insure that you went directly from point A to point B. It really doesn't even say that it took a reasonable time to get from point A to point B. Using the same example, it could take 25 minutes to do those 17 miles at 6am, but at 2pm yesterday it took 55 minutes with the holiday traffic.

[NYMedic37 22]

Personally, I think mileage is a waste of radio traffic but I understand it's policy for some agencies. I already know it takes 17 miles, we'll say, to get from the City of Beacon to St. Francis. Giving the mileage only implies that I can give 2 fake numbers on the radio, it doesn't account for the time or what you did during that time; it doesn't even insure that you went directly from point A to point B. It really doesn't even say that it took a reasonable time to get from point A to point B. Using the same example, it could take 25 minutes to do those 17 miles at 6am, but at 2pm yesterday it took 55 minutes with the holiday traffic.

In regards to the mileage / time stamp on the radio, the radios where I work are taped and time recorded. If it takes 10 minutes to arrive at the ER, at least your time stamp on the radio will indicate that in case there is an accusation. Should there be an accusation and the Police ask the complainant how long she was molested by the EMS personnel, if she says that it lasted 45 minutes, then the time stamp can help prove your credibility. Mileage helps because the Police can also check the actual mileage from the scene to the hospital and match that to the rig's mileage and taped mileage. Just the fact that you record your time/mileage/female patient enroute to XXXX hospital, shows that your intentions are to be professional. Its not a guarantee that you will not be accused of anything but it helps build your credibility.

[ny10570 745]

Now say these accusations aren't coming from a complete moron and she says you fondled her while she was half asleep. It was quick, but she clearly remembers you lifting her shirt and touching her. Your mileage and time stamp mean nothing. Also don't forget there is nothing to document your actual mileage other than what you say. By the time any charges get anywhere and they get to looking at your vehicle you'll have hundreds more miles on that odometer. If I was trying to make you look guilty I'd show it as you trying to hide something. A premeditated effort that is unverifiable and appears on the surface to be based in good intent is rather an attempt to distract any potential investigation.

Besides NYMedic, don't you work in NYC 911? Your AVL has your location time stamped every few minutes and at every signal change. City pulls your little black box and they have your every move for months.

Edited December 16, 2008 by ny10570

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Poor wording or lack of understanding of the english language and phonics on your part. Take a look again champ...its in quotations and then think about what the means in english literary terms. Before you jump on anyone about how they approach it (in your opinion)...you might want to understand context. Like I can understand the context that you've never been put in that position, nor any position of the decisions that effect human life like I have to. Read my other posts pal before you step out on the ledge like you did and ask around. Any provider that works with me or those I have trained will tell you I treat my profession as both a firefighter and paramedic as an utmost professional. I treat my patients with patience, compassion and their needs come first. So hmmmmmm.... Wilie Coyote...I think your ledge just slipped. I replied to your comment...will you?

(Yawn...) Still waiting.

The mileage thing

The whole mileage thing has good points on both sides of the discussion. But to be honest and to look at the issue open minded for those of you who preach giving mileage...why do you only do it for female patients? Is there not a chance that a male patient or even a child of any gender could potentially also make claims against a provider? Are there not homosexual providers and patients? Or is it in our heterosexual minds that we only worry about female patients? Also for those of you who give mileage when marking enroute to a facility that are males with female patients....do your female providers have the driver give mileage when they are in the back alone with a male patient? Or are men the only ones who inappropriately touch patients?

To be honest I always thought it didn't mean much either way and really wouldn't protect you at all. But if its your agency policy to do so, then its best to do it.

The only true mileage story that I laugh about everytime I remember it is about a co worker I once had who has since retired. he was a firefighter with no EMS training and would every once in a while blurt out that the giving of mileage over the air for female patients only was discrimination. I would laugh at him hysterically at the time, but now I have to say thinking it over he had a point. Maybe not discrimination...but an issue that wasn't thoroughly looked at with open and out of the box eyes.

[firemoose827 324]

In my PT EMS job we are now required to have all female patients transported (inter facility) with a female provider, and conversely all male patients with a male provider. We have 3 ambulances in 2 stations in our area so if that means another rig from station 1 has to travel the 35 minutes from there to the ER than thats what we do. Our hospital, Cobleskil Regional, has a tough time scheduling nurses to work the ED let alone come in and do a transport with the EMS agency, so we have to rely on our other station and crews.

I have been in these situations before and have defended either myself or the crew for our actions. We had a women miscarrying and going in and out of consciousness, so we picked her up put her on the stretcher and our Paramedic went to make her trauma naked to do a complete assessment and apparently the woman was partially awake at this point and started to yell that she was being raped. Her husband, who was sitting up front started to get angry...You can pretty much see the rest without me explaining it to you. But in the end the doctor at the ER and myself (captain at the time) explained it to the husband and he understood completely and apologized for turning my shorts yellow.

There are people out there that make a living on law suits, its disgusting and unfortunate but true. They will actually call the ambulance and make note of everything done or not done to them in a note book or tape recorder and than sue the EMS agency or hospital or both. (On their lawyers directions)

Its a sick world and we have to protect ourselves. I agree with ALS...Do your job professionally and accurately, use every bit of courtesy you can provide your PT, even the unconscious ones, and protect their dignity. Only do the necessary treatments with their permission Each time you perform it and keep it to a minimum. Always have a third person with you to be a witness, whether it be another EMT, firefighter/First Responder, police officer or even a family member so you are covered. A little common sense goes a long way too. Stay Safe...and smart.

[NYMedic37 22]

Now say these accusations aren't coming from a complete moron and she says you fondled her while she was half asleep. It was quick, but she clearly remembers you lifting her shirt and touching her. Your mileage and time stamp mean nothing. Also don't forget there is nothing to document your actual mileage other than what you say. By the time any charges get anywhere and they get to looking at your vehicle you'll have hundreds more miles on that odometer. If I was trying to make you look guilty I'd show it as you trying to hide something. A premeditated effort that is unverifiable and appears on the surface to be based in good intent is rather an attempt to distract any potential investigation.

Besides NYMedic, don't you work in NYC 911? Your AVL has your location time stamped every few minutes and at every signal change. City pulls your little black box and they have your every move for months.

The mileage / time stamp is not a cure all but may help you with your credibility. Hey, It can't hurt if your not doing anything wrong.

[NWFDMedic 58]

In my PT EMS job we are now required to have all female patients transported (inter facility) with a female provider, and conversely all male patients with a male provider. We have 3 ambulances in 2 stations in our area so if that means another rig from station 1 has to travel the 35 minutes from there to the ER than thats what we do. Our hospital, Cobleskil Regional, has a tough time scheduling nurses to work the ED let alone come in and do a transport with the EMS agency, so we have to rely on our other station and crews.

This is law for mental health transports. Do you guys do it for general transports as well?