Should Apparatus Operators Be Required To Wear Turnout Gear?

[x635 4,066]

At a fire scene, with a few exceptions, should an apparatus operator be required to wear full turnout gear? (i.e. those operating the pump, aerial turntable, etc.....

[antiquefirelt 994]

Due to staffing, our initial operators are required to wear full PPE short of an SCBA. Most of the time we have numerous older call firefighters who respond and choose to take the pump vs. pack up. The career guys love this as they get to go to work. These, secondary operators are allowed more latitude. During hot weather, all operators are allowed to shed the coat and helmet. But all driver/operators fully dress out before leaving the station for any call that the crew gears up for. We like guys to wear bunkers most all the time as no matter what happens, the rest of the stuff goes on quick, but tossing shoes and putting on pants after the fact is too slow for quickly changing roles.

[gpdexplorer 46]

What I feel should happen and what actually happens is very different.

Apparatus operators should be required to wear their gear when operating a piece of apparatus, at the very least have their pants on. Yes, its nice to let them take their coats and helmets off during the summer, but lets face it, we know were going to deal with heat in this line of business. While apparatus operators may not have to wear their SCBA, it should not be out of the question. If you're outside pumping a piece of apparatus or working a turn table, and the smoke is hanging low or blowing on your side of the building, the smoke is just as toxic outside of the building as it is inside of the building.

Edited December 9, 2008 by gpdexplorer

[Engfire 0]

In our dept we have no written SOP on this subject, it is up to the individual that is the operator, I myself and 50/50 on when I dress, but their are no specific calls that I sort out from any other, but if going Mutual Aid almost all of our operators dress, because 95% of the time you are called for manpower, and we don't have an SOP that states that you muat babysit the rig.

[rbuchjr 0]

Isn't it a lot more difficult for operators to drive with their full gear on? I feel like it is a lot more constricting in the driver's seat. Once on scene, I believe the operator should have his bunkers or a jacket on.

[firecapt32 282]

You might want to consider if they are part of the 2 in 2 out rule, then yes they need to be dressed in proper attire.

[frenchie477 2]

Personally I say it depends on the alarm (obviously) - anything on the highway, the more visible the better, but other situations where they're dedicated to the rig, pants alone would suffice. Our drivers typically wear a coat. It's on each rig and identifies them as the driver of that apparatus.

[NWFDMedic 58]

Isn't it a lot more difficult for operators to drive with their full gear on? I feel like it is a lot more constricting in the driver's seat. Once on scene, I believe the operator should have his bunkers or a jacket on.

As a bigger guy, I can tell you that driving some of the newer apparatus with turnout gear on is just dreadful. It's usually not my first option to drive, so often I'm already in my gear when I find out that I'm going to have to go behind the wheel and it's very cramped.

In my classes, I was taught that drivers should be wearing gear to protect them from potential hazards associated with operating a pump panel and in most cases, that included a helmet, jacket, and some type of leg covering (at the time a long coat and hip boots were acceptable). Basically, our instructors thought that we should be protected in the event that something falls, breaks, ruptures, etc. in our operational area.

[EJS1810 7]

What I feel should happen and what actually happens is very different.

Apparatus operators should be required to wear their gear when operating a piece of apparatus, at the very least have their pants on. Yes, its nice to let them take their coats and helmets off during the summer, but lets face it, we know were going to deal with heat in this line of business. While apparatus operators may not have to wear their SCBA, it should not be out of the question. If you're outside pumping a piece of apparatus or working a turn table, and the smoke is hanging low or blowing on your side of the building, the smoke is just as toxic outside of the building as it is inside of the building.

And your turnout gesr will do what to protect you from smoke?

There is no reason for the pump operator to be waering full PPE if he is not going to be involved in supression in any way. If he is just at his pump panel he should have a safety vest on for identification and protection. If you are operating an aerial device from teh turntable you should have your PPE on in case you have to act quickly and go up the ladder.

[ajsbear 11]

And your turnout gesr will do what to protect you from smoke?

There is no reason for the pump operator to be waering full PPE if he is not going to be involved in supression in any way. If he is just at his pump panel he should have a safety vest on for identification and protection. If you are operating an aerial device from teh turntable you should have your PPE on in case you have to act quickly and go up the ladder.

If you're operating the pumps you should have at the very least your bunker pants and boots as well as a vest. I do when I drive and pump and put my coat and helmut in a compartment in case I need them. At MVA's there is always a chance you'll be needed to do something and you'll need to be in full PPE.

And if your a bigger person, driving the newer rigs with turnout coats is difficult. My full gear is always on the rig if I am driving.

[wraftery 1,275]

Wow! You guys skipped right by that 2 in 2 out reply.

He said it is a rule

You guys went right back to excuses for no gear

[gpdexplorer 46]

And your turnout gesr will do what to protect you from smoke?

There is no reason for the pump operator to be waering full PPE if he is not going to be involved in supression in any way. If he is just at his pump panel he should have a safety vest on for identification and protection. If you are operating an aerial device from teh turntable you should have your PPE on in case you have to act quickly and go up the ladder.

My point wasn't that your gear itself will protect you from smoke. In my mind, that smoke is dangerous and harmful to your health, therefore, you should wear an SCBA in that situation. When I picture an FF wearing SCBA, I don't see someone with just turnout pants and an SCBA. I see an FF with pants, coats, helmet and SCBA.

While I'm not saying this has to be every situation, it's not goin to hurt to be ready. Pants, a helmet, and depending the situation a traffic vest, or however you want to describe it. If you're pumping an apparatus close to the scene, you never know what's going to come down out of the sky.

EJS, I'm definately not tryin to say your wrong.

One other thing to keep in mind is that we are always in the public eye, and we have to maintain the professional image that we work so hard to attain. By having an operator wearing some PPE, makes us look professional and shows that we have pride in what we do, not that I'm saying that someone has to be in gear to be proud of the work they do or to show that they are proud of they work they do, because I'm willing to bet that each and every one of us, who is sitting at your computer in your sweats, or at the station in your duty uniform, or even in your rig on your cell phone, is proud of what we do.

[Danger 160]

Wearing an SCBA at the panel. Wow don't know what to say. I guess we'll tell the chief to also. Personal preference at least pants, maybe coat on after arrival but don't drive with it on.

[notch138 7]

As most people are saying i agree that it depends on the type of alarm and whats happings at that time. and the operator should have an SCBA near by because if you have a cloud of nasty stuff going near the engine he/she might want to put it on. Most of our operators have on just pants while in operation unless something is up.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Please keep all postings here pertinent to the topic on hand. Any bashing of any sort will not be tolerated.

[ja3kfd 34]

I feel that you should have it on just like the rest of the crew, on the apparatus you drove there, with the way insurance and lawyers work today I feel you have to cover all the bases.

Some will say we are nuts for saying this but it is a rule that was put into effect a while back in my Department, if we really think about it why not wear it?

We used to tell drivers oh bring it with you and put it on later, It was never put on, except maybe in the winter.

There will be that one day we will be glad we did.

[joshlost818 6]

Does wearing a coat restrict movement while in the drivers seat because it doesnt seem that bad to drive without a coat an dthrow it on at the scene if you need to.

[robert benz 344]

lets see almost all of you are saying you cant drive an engine with gear on, what about that truck in the next bay, the operator of that apparatus in most depts wont have the luxury of pulling up and staying outside, he drives to the call fully dressed ready to work, doesnt he?? or at least thats what I deal with in my dept.

[markmets415 524]

Excellent point Robert, A few years back on a day run I was the driver of the second due Engine to a structure fire in the Station 2 area and when I pulled into the scene, the IC told me get it in pump, hook into the first due, get your SCBA on and I'll take the rig, get a second line off and get to work.

Edited December 10, 2008 by markmets415

[Danger 160]

lets see almost all of you are saying you cant drive an engine with gear on, what about that truck in the next bay, the operator of that apparatus in most depts wont have the luxury of pulling up and staying outside, he drives to the call fully dressed ready to work, doesnt he?? or at least thats what I deal with in my dept.

I agree, and I know (in my inexperienced and open mind) that I can get my coat and SCBA on, get the pump set and get on the line in a reasonable amount of time if I have a skeleton crew or a standpipe operation

[grumpyff 1,159]

Isn't it a lot more difficult for operators to drive with their full gear on? I feel like it is a lot more constricting in the driver's seat. Once on scene, I believe the operator should have his bunkers or a jacket on.

IIRC Sutphen does not recommend wearing turnout gear while driving. Our operators are required to bring their gear with them. I usually suit up after arriving on scene if I am driving. Drove a few times the gear on, and even with a good pair of leather boots, it was extremely difficult to to do. The pedals are too close together. While in Pleasantville I used to drive the old Hahn all the time suited up, it had huge accelerator and brake petals spaced a good distance apart, that newer apparatus do not have.

[NWFDMedic 58]

IIRC Sutphen does not recommend wearing turnout gear while driving. Our operators are required to bring their gear with them. I usually suit up after arriving on scene if I am driving. Drove a few times the gear on, and even with a good pair of leather boots, it was extremely difficult to to do. The pedals are too close together. While in Pleasantville I used to drive the old Hahn all the time suited up, it had huge accelerator and brake petals spaced a good distance apart, that newer apparatus do not have.

In our newer vehicles, the pedals are fine if you have a good pair of boots. The problem I have, believe it or not is width. I generally have rope in one bunker pocket and gloves and a hood in the other bunker pocket. Between that stuff and my legs, I'm squishing myself just to get the door closed.

If your driver is included in the 2 in/2 out, then they must be in full turnout gear and have an SCBA at the ready. It's interesting the debate on SCBA and drivers. There may be a need to wear them, at least temporarily, and I know my department wouldn't have one available to the drive if we leave with a full interior crew.

I just think it's a good idea to wear gear as an apparatus operator at the scene if you're actually pumping or operating a platform. We are doing emergency work with hoses under high pressure, many of which don't get used every day. It's just good extra protection if something breaks or blows.

[50-65 205]

In our department, it is pretty much up to individual driving. All drivers must bring their full PPE. All apparatus have a SCBA for the driver.

Me personally, I will usually have my bunkers on and put my coat and helmet in the first compartment. But it depends on the call and the amount of time waiting at the station for a crew.

[abaduck 123]

I can't believe the guys who are complaining about driving while wearing turnouts - there must be some very big guys or very small rigs! :-D

In the winter I regularly drive my POV while wearing turnout pants and jacket. It's small, and it's a stick shift (so three pedals to manage), and I'm not exactly undersized, and I don't have the slightest problem. But then I was raised in the frozen north of Scotland, and did some of my early driving in barely-heated Land Rovers, wearing heavy winter gear and overtrousers, so perhaps it's a matter of what you're used to.

Mike

[firemoose827 324]

I have heard different arguments, like the one that all firefighters should have turnouts on while responding to a call to have extra protection against cuts and abrasions should the truck be involved in a crash. But yet the helmets should be removed to prevent neck injuries during a crash.

Once on scene, yes, everyone should be in turnouts, even the drivers. You never know what will happen and who will be needed to help out. If I am the MPO that day with a shortage of manpower and the FAST isnt on scene yet and one of my brothers goes down inside, I will be ready to respond to help them instead of wasting time putting on coats and helmets and gloves and SCBA...If I am at the pump I will have my turnouts on with a pack nearby ready to go, I wont have that on my concious because I was "Too Hot", or thought it was rediculous to be a driver and be in turnouts. Firefighters are always prepared, if you want to make excuses thats your thing, but remember that when you are on the inside and you need help and the guy outside is still getting dressed...dont be mad at him/her, they are simply doing what you would do also.

[IzzyEng4 427]

While driving I believe that operators should not wear turnout coats or helmets while driving as it restricts your upper body motion while steering and also because of the lack of room. As for bunker pants, either or is fine but it depends on the type of vehicle and its setup. Some rigs with the way the new doghouses are set up you do not have enough room with your pants on especially if you are a bigger person. Also does it really mater if you gear up at the firehouse or at the scene? You are really not saving any time if you are the driver so we can throw out that argument in my opinion. I believe a apparatus operator should not be wearing restrictive clothing like fire coats as it is more of a hinder and a safety factor while driving the rig.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

Obviously the driver should have their gear with them and should have SCBA available to them on the rig, but whether or not they wear it while driving should be left up to individual departments, based on what works in their apparatus and how their SOPs run. Wearing it while on a scene? I'd say its dependent upon the SOPs again. But, like rbuchjr said before his post was deleted, are we going to make the Chief, the PD, the news, and the bystanders all wear turnout gear and SCBA because the wind might send some smoke their way? Unlikely. Either way, good topic for discussion

Edited December 10, 2008 by SageVigiles

[M' Ave 1,466]

I don't believe ECC needs to be wearing gear. His job is to stay at the panel after hooking up to a hydrant. He can do without gear. His gear is certainly on the rig, should the co. be assigned and the rig not needed. This holds true for the LCC as well. The LCC can drive, put up the aerial and throw ground ladders with gloves and a helmet on. You can work longer and harder without the extra thirty pounds.

Full PPE is a great thing, but I think that we sometimes forget that it has a multitude of drawbacks as well. Did the burn rate go down? Sure. However, heat and exhaustion related injuries went up. When you're on the fire floor or the floor above, it's a no brainer, SUIT UP TIGHT! However, I hear much debate about whether a member on the roof, or working the outside needs the same degree of encapsulation, this holds true most especially, in hot weather.

Driving with gear on in the cab of our rigs would be tough, it's really tight and the new rigs coming in are even tighter.

[robert benz 344]

While driving I believe that operators should not wear turnout coats or helmets while driving as it restricts your upper body motion while steering and also because of the lack of room. As for bunker pants, either or is fine but it depends on the type of vehicle and its setup. Some rigs with the way the new doghouses are set up you do not have enough room with your pants on especially if you are a bigger person. Also does it really mater if you gear up at the firehouse or at the scene? You are really not saving any time if you are the driver so we can throw out that argument in my opinion. I believe a apparatus operator should not be wearing restrictive clothing like fire coats as it is more of a hinder and a safety factor while driving the rig.

while I agree the seating area is getting tighter, I think it really does matter if you get dressed at the scene, think about the perception of, it is a working fire, people trapped, the call comes in that way, and NOW YOU DECIDE TO GET DRESSED IN FRONT OF THE PERSON HANGING OUT OF THE WINDOW. Our dept has a policy if you are out of quarters, get dispatched to anything fire related you are to pull over let the members get dressed, "that whole safety thing about getting dressed in the cab " and then procede to the call.

But to each his own.

[abaduck 123]

while I agree the seating area is getting tighter, I think it really does matter if you get dressed at the scene, think about the perception of, it is a working fire, people trapped, the call comes in that way, and NOW YOU DECIDE TO GET DRESSED IN FRONT OF THE PERSON HANGING OUT OF THE WINDOW. Our dept has a policy if you are out of quarters, get dispatched to anything fire related you are to pull over let the members get dressed, "that whole safety thing about getting dressed in the cab " and then procede to the call.

But to each his own.

That got me thinking. As a vollie responding POV, in the summer my gear lives in the car and I dress on scene. In the winter it lives in the hall, and I dress before responding. And you know what? I've realised I much prefer winter. It's easier to screw up your donning ritual when doing it on scene; doing it before responding, as I do in winter, it gives me a moment of calm (during which I'm doing some mental sizeup) before responding, and I think I drive better and arrive on scene in better mental shape (and ready to instantly go to work) as a result.

Someone else mentioned upper body movement re. driving a rig; actually, thinking about that, I see the point. Driving my POV I have no problem, it has very quick, direct, flick of the wrist steering. It's not like hauling on the wheel of a rig! So I can see better where guys who have a problem are coming from.

Mike