Trial

[abaduck 123]

"I want to send my greetings to Osama Bin Laden and reaffirm my allegiance. I hope the Jihad will continue and strike the heart of America with all kinds of weapons of mass destruction."

Those chilling words were delivered by Ramzi Binalshibh through a translator at the close of the first day of the pre-trail military hearing at Guantanamo Bay. Mr Binalshibh is one of the five men accused of plotting the attacks on the US on 11 September 2001."

Let's be careful.

As for Mr. Binalshibh - why continue the trial? Enough trees, plenty of rope...

Mike

[FFPCogs 863]

These terrorists are not only commited to doing us as much harm as possible, they are wily, smart and extremely dangerous people. I think we all know that it is only a matter of time before we are faced with the unthinkable, let us do all we can to prepare.

As for executing this scum, well I was a proponent of the death penalty for a long time, but have since changed my view. In this case the fact that they want to be "martyred" is reason number 1 NOT to execute them. The last thing we should do is give them what they want, and make heroes of them. Number 2 executeing them will serve no purpose, all of the victims will still be gone, and the damage done. Plus making such a big deal about executing them gives them a power and exposure they don't deserve.

I have come to believe that a lifetime spent in a 6 X 8 jail cell surrounded by photos of their murdered victims staring at them 24/7 would be a much more fitting punishment. Let them open their eyes every morning and the first thing they see will be the eyes of their murdered victims staring back and let that be last sight they see every night before they sleep.

Cogs

[nycemt728 49]

Cogs, well said! I'm glad someone realizes the execution is EXACTLY what they want us to do, and exactly why we should not do it. Forget any moral arguement, go to the most basic, killing them proves exactly what they want to prove about us that we are evil etc...kill them and we almost guarantee continued troubles. I agree, make the guys life miserable.

[SageVigiles 1,194]

I'd say execute them. I'd rather that than have someone take hostages to demand their release.

[stephen morea 1]

Yea, I agree with you guys dont kill them that is to easy for them. But torture them, make them work 2 days straight without sleep, dont feed them for hours on end, make there lives an absolute living hell like they did there victims and especially there victims families.

[crcocr1 8]

In fighting terrorism, let us not become terrorists ourselves but give these defendants every bit of protection entitled under our laws. When they are found guilty, then let us punish them accordingly, within the dictates of the law, and not regress into mere savagery. It is only then that we can declare ourselves winners in this war against terrorism.

Edited December 9, 2008 by crcocr1

[Union241 3]

Yea, I agree with you guys dont kill them that is to easy for them. But torture them, make them work 2 days straight without sleep, dont feed them for hours on end, make there lives an absolute living hell like they did there victims and especially there victims families.

As much as I would love to see something like this happen, it never will simply because the ACLU would have a field day with this.

[gamewell45 258]

In fighting terrorism, let us not become terrorists ourselves but give these defendants every bit of protection entitled under our laws. When they are found guilty, then let us punish them accordingly, within the dictates of the law, and not regress into mere savagery. It is only then that we can declare ourselves winners in this war against terrorism.

Finally, someone who's showing some common sense in this thread.

[FFFORD 27]

good arguments from both sides...but... hang 'em high

[helicopper 1,050]

In fighting terrorism, let us not become terrorists ourselves but give these defendants every bit of protection entitled under our laws. When they are found guilty, then let us punish them accordingly, within the dictates of the law, and not regress into mere savagery. It is only then that we can declare ourselves winners in this war against terrorism.

Interesting perspective. I believe they are more appropriately held as enemy combatants under military rules than our civil laws.

It is also necessary to treat terrorism as a war crime or crime against humanity. Our civil laws mean nothing to people who believe we are all infidels anyway. Just like other conflicts, you can't use traditional tactics in guerilla warfare.

[exmrvfc 0]

I have one suggestion for Ramzi Binalshibh and the other 4.

Prison bitches.

[crcocr1 8]

Interesting perspective. I believe they are more appropriately held as enemy combatants under military rules than our civil laws.

It is also necessary to treat terrorism as a war crime or crime against humanity. Our civil laws mean nothing to people who believe we are all infidels anyway. Just like other conflicts, you can't use traditional tactics in guerilla warfare.

As enemy combatants, they are entitled to a fair trial, counsel, and to present a defense. See Geneva Convention III, Article 105; Geneva Convention, Common Article 3.

[frenchie477 2]

Interesting perspective. I believe they are more appropriately held as enemy combatants under military rules than our civil laws.

It is also necessary to treat terrorism as a war crime or crime against humanity. Our civil laws mean nothing to people who believe we are all infidels anyway. Just like other conflicts, you can't use traditional tactics in guerilla warfare.

Fantastic point. This is essentially a guerilla war, constantly. It does require more drastic measures. What the line is between savagery and civility I'm not sure. I sure wish we could find it though. Keep them suffering and yet keep all the civil liberty people at bay.

[firecapt32 282]

We as citizens of the united states we cannot lower our selves, we have them we give them a trial, hopefully they are found guilty under our system and punished accordingly. Torture is not the American way let us not stoop so low, we hold out head high around the world and want to be respected by all nations that look to America as a government and a democracy and a way of life.

We love to argue, make different points, that's why we have elections and our country has survived as long as it has. We love to say that freedom isn't free, a lot of Americans have given there all so that the flag waves in freedom every day.

[abaduck 123]

As enemy combatants, they are entitled to a fair trial, counsel, and to present a defense. See Geneva Convention III, Article 105; Geneva Convention, Common Article 3.

Fine. Sure. Whatever. Then hang them.

Actually... forget that. What uniform did they wear? Just hang them for perfidy.

(Geneva Convention Article 37; perfidy includes '© The feigning of civilian, non-combatant status' - so hang them; that's what happens to spies and their ilk when caught during wartime)

Mike

Edited December 9, 2008 by abaduck

[SgtGumby311 0]

Although execution is well deserved, it would only serve to make these animals martyrs. That is what they want. We're in a catch-22 situation, life in prison at taxpayer's expense or killing them, making them "heroes", in their home country. Perhaps an "accident" would solve the problem.

[Guest DFD189]

Two things.

I'd advise people to read the Constitution (the document which defines who we are and what we are collectively), and then re-think some of the positions expressed here. It stuns me that people who call themselves Americans can embrace positions which run so counter to what we allegedly stand for.

And, as someone who has in the past served with various US military/para-military forces known to wear civilian clothing in the conduct of armed conflict, I'd be a little careful with the broad-brush approach of "what uniform did they wear?" I would never compare my motivation, or the motivation of those i served with, with a terrorist, but comparing an Afghan tribal fighting on the side of the Taliban with the criminals who hijacked those planes on 9/11 is not a valid comparison. Tribal militia's don't wear uniforms per se (then again, neither did village militias, re: Lexington and Concord...or even Bunker Hill).

A little google search of Special Operations Forces and Iraq and/or Afghanistan might turn up some interesting images of American forces in not-so traditional garb....the same with Bosnia, etc.

We take the higher road, because of who we are. Torture, execution void of due process, and denial of human rights -- these are the tools used by those we fight. Revenge is never a justification for action; defense of the rule of law is.

Let's let this play out in court. Vigilante justice went out with the Wild West. We're better than this. I didn't put 12 years into the Marines just to fold up and go primitive in the face of terrorism.

[INIT915 1,119]

We as citizens of the united states we cannot lower our selves, we have them we give them a trial, hopefully they are found guilty under our system and punished accordingly. Torture is not the American way let us not stoop so low, we hold out head high around the world and want to be respected by all nations that look to America as a government and a democracy and a way of life.

Well said. We have the resources and the moral character to do it by the book. Stooping to their level only serves to legitimize their actions towards any of our personnel who they may happen to capture on the battlefield.

It's difficult and dangerous to play both sides of the fence.

[JFLYNN 681]

Two things.

I'd advise people to read the Constitution (the document which defines who we are and what we are collectively), and then re-think some of the positions expressed here. It stuns me that people who call themselves Americans can embrace positions which run so counter to what we allegedly stand for.

And, as someone who has in the past served with various US military/para-military forces known to wear civilian clothing in the conduct of armed conflict, I'd be a little careful with the broad-brush approach of "what uniform did they wear?" I would never compare my motivation, or the motivation of those i served with, with a terrorist, but comparing an Afghan tribal fighting on the side of the Taliban with the criminals who hijacked those planes on 9/11 is not a valid comparison. Tribal militia's don't wear uniforms per se (then again, neither did village militias, re: Lexington and Concord...or even Bunker Hill).

A little google search of Special Operations Forces and Iraq and/or Afghanistan might turn up some interesting images of American forces in not-so traditional garb....the same with Bosnia, etc.

We take the higher road, because of who we are. Torture, execution void of due process, and denial of human rights -- these are the tools used by those we fight. Revenge is never a justification for action; defense of the rule of law is.

Let's let this play out in court. Vigilante justice went out with the Wild West. We're better than this. I didn't put 12 years into the Marines just to fold up and go primitive in the face of terrorism.

First of all, thank you for your service to our country.

You and several others in this thread have been very eloquent in expressing why we should not sink to the level of these savage killers. It is what they want and would only be playing into their hands.

Revenge is like drinking poison and hoping your enemy dies. This country truly is that "shining city on a hill" referred to be Ronald Reagan...we can't let anger and frustration cause us to abandon our core values and principles...

[ex-commish 490]

We are a civil nation. As much as I would like to see these individuals punished severly for what they did to our country there comes a time when you have to seperate emotion and what is right. Let the legal process take it's course. I believe in time they will answer to a higher authority than any court and will pay for thier crimes.

[markmets415 524]

Perhaps an "accident" would solve the problem.

This clearly is not a laughing matter but that made my night complete.

Chief Flynn I could not agree more. We cannot not sink to their level, we already know that they are not rational thinking individuals, let their rotten souls further rot in prision.

Edited December 10, 2008 by markmets415

[xfirefighter484x 234]

I have one suggestion for Ramzi Binalshibh and the other 4.

Prison bitches.

Ya know, I tend to agree with your concept. They're already in captivity. You know what happens to baby rapers, and baby killers in prison??

Put these guys in Rikers for a day, or week or month. Doubt you would find anyone to snitch on what happens, or any DA that would pursue charges against any allegations!

[Guest Bootheng161]

I say torture them by brainwashing them with guilt everyday and hour about what they did probably wouldn't work on them then maybe a little physical torture after all they weren't thinking about what they did to our people. I believe an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth.

[ny10570 745]

crcocr, firecapt, dfd thank you for getting the point. We have built this country out of morals that we hold up for the world to see as the gold standard. While we have at times fallen far short of that standard we continue to strive towards achieving it. To consciously take a step back and sacrifice anything in the name of revenge is to me defeat. We pride ourselves on being resilient and our history of perseverance. We need to continue that tradition, because f-em we're better than them and we will be the last ones standing when the dust has settled.

[Turborich 12]

The best standpoint would be to uphold our homeland moral and standards; support the constitution, hold them to a fair trial, and express nothing but civility for all that uphold this certain "Jihad" Ideal.. then, put them in a jail cell for the rest of their life that has a wonderful view-

[stephen morea 1]

We are a civil nation. As much as I would like to see these individuals punished severly for what they did to our country there comes a time when you have to seperate emotion and what is right. Let the legal process take it's course. I believe in time they will answer to a higher authority than any court and will pay for thier crimes.

HFD, I cant think of a better way to word it I'M with you 110%. Especially your last sentence.

[helicopper 1,050]

As enemy combatants, they are entitled to a fair trial, counsel, and to present a defense. See Geneva Convention III, Article 105; Geneva Convention, Common Article 3.

Exactly right. They still receive the benefit of an impartial trial but under military rules which allow far less of the theatrics and nonsense allowed under the civil system!