Millwood/Yorktown district?

[Guest MRK303]

http://www.mapquest.com/maps?1c=Ossining&a...p;2z=10562-1513

This is Millwood St. #2 to the house currently on fire- 2.48 miles

http://www.mapquest.com/maps?1c=Millwood&a...&2v=ADDRESS

This is Millwood St. #1 to the house currently on fire- 2.38 miles

http://www.mapquest.com/maps?1c=Yorktown+H...&2v=ADDRESS

This is Yorktown St. #1 to the house currently on fire- 6.45 miles

Please note that this is Yorktown's first due.

If Millwood Engine 248/ Tanker 15 makes a right turn out of station #2 on RT. 134 within less than .5 miles, they are out of their first due. This house at 303 Wilde Greene Ter. is around 3x closer to BOTH Millwood stations than Yorktown’s ST. #1.

Why doesn't Yorktown and Millwood sit down and set up a plan for duel response for any location south of the reservoir?

I know if my house was near Rt. 134 (in Yorktown's district), I would be pretty upset knowing that a firehouse less than 1 mile away would not respond and that I would have to wait for fire trucks to respond from almost 8 miles away.

Yorktown has been trying to build a firehouse on RT. 134 for many years now but has been unsuccessful. Perhaps after this fire, Yorktown and Millwood will put egos aside and will sit down to discuss plans for a duel repsonse.

Edited December 7, 2008 by MRK303

[JetPhoto 626]

Don't know but sounded like a big fire

[Guest MRK303]

It was fully involved when 2253 arrived. But the idea that if there is a small fire and a fire truck can get there fast enough to knock it down sounds like a pretty good idea. When Millwood is only 2.5 miles away and Yorktown is over 6 miles away, I see something wrong with this. The reservoir is a great line to have duel reponse between Ytown and Millwood.

[helicopper 1,050]

This is the same problem as me being two blocks from a robbery in progress but not knowing about it because of different radio frequencies or there being 3-4 cops within a few blocks of a job who can't go because it's not in their jurisdiction.

Solid information MRK303! At some point logic is going to have to be brought into play here.

Does it make sense to build, equip, and staff an entirely new firehouse when there is an existing one just a few miles down the road? Maybe, most likely NOT. Develop a comprehensive closest unit response policy and give it a try.

If, after a few years, it proves to be ineffective, then come back and float the idea of a new firehouse.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

Nope , you must build a firehouse and put a tower ladder in it, yea! Nope put two tower ladders in it, one for the left turn and one for the right turn

[ny10570 745]

Not saying something shouldn't be done, but that stuff happens along any jurisdiction lines. Hell that happens with NYC because of different dispatch frequencies and antiquated dispatch software. What is the actual difference in response times? If Yorktown os getting rigs out of their closest station 2 minutes faster than Millwood then Yorktown could be the better choice. Closest isn't always best.

[Guest MRK303]

Not saying something shouldn't be done, but that stuff happens along any jurisdiction lines. Hell that happens with NYC because of different dispatch frequencies and antiquated dispatch software. What is the actual difference in response times? If Yorktown os getting rigs out of their closest station 2 minutes faster than Millwood then Yorktown could be the better choice. Closest isn't always best.

That is very true about response time but that is not the situation in this case.

[RWC130 594]

Good Topic!

How about a Countywide Fire Department?

Utilize the CAD System and Dispatch the closest

Fire Apparatus based on the location of the 911 Caller

and not who's "District" it is.

I don't remember what town it was in but someplace on Long Island

a few years back they had a Working Fire w/ People Trapped.

ABC Fire Department was about 4-5 miles away. Just over the District Line not even 1/2 a mile was a

XYZ Fire Department.

XYZ Fire Department buffed the job and made a Rescue of a trapped victim.

Had the Fire K/D when ABC Fire Department arrived.

This caused some real problems between Chiefs.

I am not saying who was right or wrong but I think some COMMON SENSE kicked in

by the Firefighters from XYZ Fire Department.

This applies to EMS also.

I will use Yorktown (YVAC) and Mohegan (MVAC) as an example.

Both very good and well respected VAC's.

Let's say both have Ambulance Crews staffed and ready to go.

911 call comes in.....

Person Choking at Grandma's on Route 202

YVAC is right up the street on Route 202

I would guess maybe 2-3 minute ETA?

MVAC is on the other side of Yorktown on Route 6 and would have to come across

Lexington Ave then up 202. I would guess a 7-8 minute ETA?

If you were the 911 Dispatcher and had a choice who would

you send YVAC or MVAC?

2-3 Minutes?

7-8 Minutes?

Before you answer that let me add a little kicker,

the person Choking is your Mom or Dad.

Do the math!

LETS SAVE LIVES!

[ajsbear 11]

I remember a fire on LI about 20 years ago, the Nassau County 8th PCT. had a fire on the second floor. Bethpage was disoatched as it was their district. Next door was one of Levittown's fire houses with an engine and ladder. They were never called.

[jack10562 414]

Even if Yorktown had an unmanned station on 134 it probably would not have made any difference, since the majority of manpower probably has to come from the north part of town anyway. An automatic dual-response for any reported structure fire may have had some impact if first arriving units had a manageable "room-and-contents" job.

Perhaps the only thing putting a station down there could improve is those resident's fire insurance ratings, by having apparatus located under 5 miles, which is the same thing a fire protection contract with Millwood Fire District would accomplish.

[mllax14 18]

Just a quick question has any one has read the article on LoHud saying that the neighbor first say it at around 5:15pm and the FD called at 6pm????

I agree with the whole countywide department thing but as much of good idea as it sounds you have to look at the whole picture. Let’s face it pretty much every department is struggling in one way or another with some hurting more than others. A county wide or closet unit response could put an even bigger strain of departments already hurting; meaning departments that are having a tough time with manpower or getting out on calls…etc would be doing even more calls. Also how would the closet unit response work would it be closest departments sends multiple pieces of equipment or one or two pieces from multiple departments this could also mean that you could have a number of departments responding to a single call so you could feasible have 3-4 departments responding to a residential alarm? It works great in places like Greenburg and southern part of the county where the paid staff is able to handle it. But if it were to happen in the northern part of the county I think you might see some departments start to sink and the stronger departments start to take over and then they even might start to struggle because they would be covering for the other departments so much.

Just my 2 cents.

[x648eng119 2]

It's been this way for years, and I personally don't see it changing anytime soon. Nothing against the YHFD or MFD, but unfortunatley what it will have to come down to is someone getting seriously injured or killed. I'll never forget 5 years ago or so, when I was working for WEMS in Mt. Kisco, i was on my way home, coming down 7 Bridges Rd (between Rt 133 and Rt 134) and I saw one of YHFD's engines clearing up from an AFA. All I could think was, damn, Mt Kisco, Millwood, even SOMERS might be able to make it here quicker!

It's the same thing with Croton's district on the outskirts of the Town of Cortlandt. There's one street, Bethea Dr, where we have to go from our district, out Rt 9 in to Ossining, up Old Albany Post Rd, to Glendale Rd to Spring Valley Rd, which is Millwood's district, then we cross into Yorktown's district for half a second, and turn on to Bethea Dr... So we're going through 3 other districts to get back to ours!

[Guest MRK303]

You hit the nail right on the head. Possum Rd (Yorktown Fire) and Adams Rd (Yorktown Fire) are off of Lakeview Rd (Millwood Fire). Both Possum and Adams are dead end roads. Yorktown must travel 8 miles (into Millwoods district) to get back into Yorktowns district to get to Possum and Adams. Meanwhile, Millwood St#1 is only 2 miles away from both Possum and Adams. I see many things wrong with this, and this needs to change before we lose life or property of our friends and neighbors.

[AFS1970 504]

Closest unit response is all well and good. But there are a couple of factors at play here that also have an effect.

In many cases these historic district lines go back to before there was any development in the area, and fewer roads leading to these areas. At one point they probably were the closest, or at least fastest.

Fire stations are built where land is available, not always where they would do the most good. When a district has the resources to put in a sub station at a different end of town, a parcel needs to be found, then the NIMBY neighbors who all want the fire protection but not the noise hold a hearing and the new station is nixed.

Even if Westchester went with either a county wide closest unit response plan or a county wide fire department, there would still be border issues. Westchester borders other counties and even another state that would not be part of this plan but might in theory be closer. Remember Long Ridge Fire Co. in Stamford is first due (dual response) to a few streets in Pound Ridge, NY. When 60 Control gets the call they send it out and call Stamford dispatch and we send Long Ridge. Does this mean we should consolodate Fairfield and Westchester counties into one big mega department?

[Guest Mfd]

This issue has been going on for a very long time, and my comments are not directed to any of the members, just my 2 cents. Both departments are staffed by competent, experienced dedicated members. The idea of a dual response for an area like this is something that should be seriously considered for fire as well as EMS, considering YVAC responds fron quarters located on RT 202. The two districts could enter into an IMA (inter municipal agreement) and both could be dispatch for any confirmed serious alarm or accident, considering the TSP goes right through this area, or a predetermined box or assignment for an automatic/ minor alarm.

The issue is with the philosophy and leadership from the commissioners at the district level. I believe they feel this is their territory and they will take care of it as they see fit. If you look at the proposed Y'town firehouse on 134, it has been brought to the voters of the district 3 times and been defeated each time. The district has been unable to show, educate, gain support or explain to the residents that they represent why it it is necessary yet they continue to move forward. With a existing station literally right down the street. Perhaps it is time for elected officials to remember that they are there to represent the residents that have elected them, not their own agenda or desires regardless of how long they have been on the board.

[PCFD ENG58 1,085]

50 feet from the RYE BROOK firehouse is GREENWICH CONN!

[Remember585 815]

Over a hundred years ago, some guy was put in charge of drawing municipal boundaries. A few years later, the man had grown quite old but was still called upon to draw out fire district lines. Sadly, his hand wasn't as steady as it was years ago, and hence, our current fire district lines...

[JM15 386]

Is this the same situation as the Journeys End rd. Fire a couple of months ago? I am not that familiar with the area.

[JohnnyOV 2]

You hit the nail right on the head. Possum Rd (Yorktown Fire) and Adams Rd (Yorktown Fire) are off of Lakeview Rd (Millwood Fire). Both Possum and Adams are dead end roads. Yorktown must travel 8 miles (into Millwoods district) to get back into Yorktowns district to get to Possum and Adams. Meanwhile, Millwood St#1 is only 2 miles away from both Possum and Adams. I see many things wrong with this, and this needs to change before we lose life or property of our friends and neighbors.

Just to clarify, Yorktown is not traviling 8 miles into Millwood's district. Its 7 miles from Yorktown's station 1.

[Fex404 0]

Is this the same situation as the Journeys End rd. Fire a couple of months ago? I am not that familiar with the area.

Yes. Very much the same.

The Millwood Station 2 is 2.4 miles away from the fire they had at 1360 Journey's end Rd.

Yahoo Maps

The Millwood Station 1 is 5.4 miles from the 1360 Journey's end Rd. location

Yahoo Maps Station 1

This is Yorktowns closest firehouse which is 7.12 miles from the 1360 Journey's end location.

Yahoo Maps - Yorktowns firehouse

Also note both these fires were surround and drown operations and both structures were completely lost.

[JohnnyOV 2]

Also note both these fires were surround and dround operations and both structures were completely lost.

Also note that no one was home at either fire and that both houses were, and I quote, "Going pretty good" upon the first 911 call being placed (the journy's end Rd fire came in as a very large brush fire...upgraded to a fully involved house fire once the neighbor went over to verify what they saw. These houses are in a very rural part of town with minimal if any drive by traffic. So by the time anyone were to notice a fire in the house with no one home, the house most likely would have been destroyed anyways regardless of which department was called first.

Edited December 8, 2008 by EMSJunkie712

[JFLYNN 681]

This is an excellent topic about a serious problem. In my opinion, leadership at the County level(s) needs to be stronger to overcome the parochialism which stands in the way of more efficient delivery of fire / ems services.

Of course, when you're talking about the issue of which department is closer you have to be careful to not compare apples to oranges...i.e. you need to differentiate between ladder companies, tower ladders, rescues, engines, tankers, etc., and you also need to differentiate between a fire company or firehouse which is staffed and one which is not (generally a career vs. volunteer difference, but doesn't always have to be...theoretically a volunteer department could make a commitment to always have adequate manpower in the firehouse/ witht he apparatus ready to respond).

In any event, this topic is an important one which should be explored further and hopefully a strong leader or leaders will emerge at the county level to deal with these issues.

[JohnnyOV 2]

This is an excellent topic about a serious problem. In my opinion, leadership at the County level(s) needs to be stronger to overcome the parochialism which stands in the way of more efficient delivery of fire / ems services.

Of course, when you're talking about the issue of which department is closer you have to be careful to not compare apples to oranges...i.e. you need to differentiate between ladder companies, tower ladders, rescues, engines, tankers, etc., and you also need to differentiate between a fire company or firehouse which is staffed and one which is not (generally a career vs. volunteer difference, but doesn't always have to be...theoretically a volunteer department could make a commitment to always have adequate manpower in the firehouse/ witht he apparatus ready to respond).

In any event, this topic is an important one which should be explored further and hopefully a strong leader or leaders will emerge at the county level to deal with these issues.

Unfortunatly it is not a county level problem. The problem lies within the two towns fire district tax lines. If change really wants to take place, their would need to be a petition of some kind for the residents of southern Yorktown to change who their fire taxes go to. Currently for municipal coverage at adams and possum rd I believe they are paying Ossining for water /sewage, Yorktown for fire, the department that covers Millwood for police. So basically its a huge Charlie Foxtrot of whos got who's coverage for what.

I personally have no problem "losing" that area of my district if is means better protection for the residents who live there.

[helicopper 1,050]

Unfortunatly it is not a county level problem. The problem lies within the two towns fire district tax lines. If change really wants to take place, their would need to be a petition of some kind for the residents of southern Yorktown to change who their fire taxes go to. Currently for municipal coverage at adams and possum rd I believe they are paying Ossining for water /sewage, Yorktown for fire, the department that covers Millwood for police. So basically its a huge Charlie Foxtrot of whos got who's coverage for what.

It is most definitely at least a county level issue, it is probably a statewide issue but at least (despite those advocating the elimination of a county government) county's are well suited geographically to resolve the problem. This does not mean that the County of Westchester (or the County of Putnam/Dutchess/Rockland/Orange/Nassau/Wherever you choose to apply this problem) has to or should be the leader of the new department but it can and should be the one to facilitate the discussion between the district(s) involved and try to help people overcome these petty little issues that are holding us back from progressing.

You would not have to immediately change who receives the taxes; as someone else said just establish an intermunicipal agreement between the parties and start dual responses. Nobody has to give anything up, it merely enhances the response. If it is going to be a surround and drown operation, they're probably going to be called for mutual aid anyway.

I agree with the whole countywide department thing but as much of good idea as it sounds you have to look at the whole picture. Let’s face it pretty much every department is struggling in one way or another with some hurting more than others. A county wide or closet unit response could put an even bigger strain of departments already hurting; meaning departments that are having a tough time with manpower or getting out on calls…etc would be doing even more calls. Also how would the closet unit response work would it be closest departments sends multiple pieces of equipment or one or two pieces from multiple departments this could also mean that you could have a number of departments responding to a single call so you could feasible have 3-4 departments responding to a residential alarm? It works great in places like Greenburg and southern part of the county where the paid staff is able to handle it. But if it were to happen in the northern part of the county I think you might see some departments start to sink and the stronger departments start to take over and then they even might start to struggle because they would be covering for the other departments so much.

Just my 2 cents.

A county department would probably alleviate many of the problems you point out. Departments with staffing issues could draw from a much larger membership pool, wouldn't have to be totally self-sufficient (i.e. no truck company = no problem, another "station" sends the truck), could draw from a much larger cadre if instructors to conduct training, etc.

Call volume isn't going to change. Resource management is what changes. So, maybe more "stations" are involved in a response but they'd be responding with specified resources as decided by the chiefs/line officers/management - the same way it is done now in a district.

This could become something akin to the structure in Maryland where the combination departments have both career and volunteer staff working together to insure a timely response. So long as all the personnel are properly trained and equipped, who cares if the apparatus responds with 3 paid FF or 2 paid and 1 volunteer? This could be a beneficial compromise to all the departments that are suffering in today's economy.

It could also help FF's develop real experience by enabling them to go from a very quiet area to a more busy area for shifts or assignments.

Lots of great ideas can come from this concept, if people are willing to put aside the territorialism and egos to discuss it.

[Guest MRK303]

"Also note both these fires were surround and drown operations and both structures were completely lost."

Also note that I am not saying that both structures were lost because there is not a duel response in place, but if there is or was a room and contents fire, the chances of a quick knockdown are increased if a department responds from 2 miles away as opposed to 6 miles away. I apologize if my miles are off by a half mile or so, but the case here is not 1 or 2 miles, it's a difference of about 4+ miles which is a very long distance when it comes to the amount of time a house is burning. Yes, I understand that many departments in Westchester, Putnam and into CT have this same issue that Yorktown and Millwood have regarding district lines. Understanding that there are issues with district lines is one thing, but not acting on making a community safer is another. Before someone's life or property is lost and the fire service receives another black eye for understanding the problems that exist and not acting on them, departments (commissioners) need to sit down and fix this NOW.

Edited December 8, 2008 by MRK303

[CAM502 6]

This could become something akin to the structure in Maryland where the combination departments have both career and volunteer staff working together to insure a timely response. So long as all the personnel are properly trained and equipped, who cares if the apparatus responds with 3 paid FF or 2 paid and 1 volunteer?

The Union's would care!!

[Fex404 0]

Also note that no one was home at either fire and that both houses were, and I quote, "Going pretty good" upon the first 911 call being placed (the journy's end Rd fire came in as a very large brush fire...upgraded to a fully involved house fire once the neighbor went over to verify what they saw. These houses are in a very rural part of town with minimal if any drive by traffic. So by the time anyone were to notice a fire in the house with no one home, the house most likely would have been destroyed anyways regardless of which department was called first.

EMSJunkie. I appoligize for the way I worded that statement. It was not a shot at Yorktown, if anything I was saying that these were not life threatening and were handled with what we have now. I completely understand the district and am very familiar with the location of both of these homes and I have seen where the FD is not even called untill the situation is way out of hand.

However, just because these two instances were that way does not mean the next one will be and we need to figure something out. weather or not the county or state takes control of anything it would be years and many fights before the tax lines were rewritten but in the meantime I am under the impression that all it takes is the chiefs and commissioners agreement to make an automatic dual response.

[mikeinet 37]

Personally -- Everyone can be in 100% agreement or 100% disagreement about a county fire department, and a holistic view to everything in Westchester County regarding the Fire Service... BUT!! the main issue, is that this is not an overnight process. To form a county fire department would takes YEARS AND YEARS of planning, approvals, and deployment. This isn't a "oh, Yorktown has had 2 fires that could have been different if we had a unified plan, let's go do it", it's a LOT larger than that.

I'm not against this by any means, I'm just saying people really need to differentiate between the two.

In terms of the YFD/MFD issue -- I agree that politics needs to get out of this issue. Most people don't care what fire dept comes to their house when it's burning, as long as it's quick and they can do what they have to...

Looking at the tax structure of a fire district probably takes some time and state planning, town planning, etc... but setting up an automatic mutual aid plan is as simple as calling DES and puting it on the box. Right? (Correct me if I'm wrong).

I just feel some people's priorities are not where they should be. Remember folks, we're here to serve our community! Not argue about who gets to piss on a fire first!

Edited December 8, 2008 by mikeinet

[helicopper 1,050]

The Union's would care!!

So would the chief's, the volunteers, the commissioners, the firefighters... Does that mean we shouldn't discuss the issue? If the union's interests are represented it could work. Ultimately, it could be a benefit even to the unions.

But your comment leads me to ask: who's driving this bus? The unions? The volunteers? The chiefs/commissioners? Shouldn't we all be striving for the same thing?

Ultimately our constituents (the taxpayers) have the right to expect the best service possible at the most reasonable cost possible. Who's to say that's not a combination department? (Mind you I don't know that it is, I just think its a valid alternative to what we've got now).

On the subject of consolidating/regionalizing, has the PACE study on the consolidation of departments in Westchester been completed? If so, does any one know what it found?

[Remember585 815]

1360 Journeys End Road came in as a brush fire. Even if all the departments (Millwood, Yorktown and Croton) had Mutual Aid agreements for structural fires, there still was nothing to be done. The fire the other night - same thing. The 2 biggest problems are the time it takes to be notified (911 call) and a lack of residential fire alarms. If these buildings had alarms, there's a good chance the fires wouldn't have spread as much. Same thing goes for the fire we had a year ago on Quaker Hill Drive. These areas usually have larger homes, long and gated driveways, no municipal water supply and the space between homes is larger. The only fires that ever seem to have a chance of an aggressive attack are those where someone is home and calls right away. The fire on Quaker Hill happened during a freezing rain / sleet / snow storm, so everything was somewhat delayed getting there. Our first due got there and put a 2 1/2" in the front door and made a blitz attack to no avail. Mutual Aid tankers took longer then usual getting there and shuttle times were slowed because the rigs were sliding all over the place.

The 3 districts - MFD, YHFD and CFD - need to drill more often, create pre-plans for fill sites and come up with one way of doing things so we can go at it systematically and perfect it to cut down the times. I also think we should set up automatic responses to try and reduce the time it takes units to get on scene. None of us have any direct routes to the south Cortlandt, south Yorktown and northern New Castle areas - if we all send resources perhaps we can get something on the scene quicker.

I'm sure all 3 of our departments are already thinking things over and trying to come up with a solution.