Observations from a Member of the Young Generation

[gpdexplorer 46]

A just wanted to share some thoughts and observations that I've had recently and see what every one else has to say. Off the bat, none of these comments are directed at any department or person specifically, nor am I trying to monday-morning quarterback.

First, there was recently a working fire close to my girlfriend's house so I stopped by to see what I could learn from exterior tactics in motion. Numerous mutual aid departments were called to the scene. Shortly after one department was requested I noticed a member from that department come to the scene in his POV, gear up and go directly to work. At that point in time, the situation was pretty well in control. In my opinion, if you're responding mutual aid and arrive at a scene before your department, you should await the arrival of your department before going to work. One reason is accountability. Your department needs to know where you are. If you get there, go to work, and they don't know that you are there, what is going to happen if the proverbial "Sh*t hits the fan?" Who is going to come save you. While you might make contact with your chief, officer, etc via other means i.e. Nextel or what have you, you should still wait. Hopefully I'm making my point here and not just rambling. But if any one has anything to add or clarify what I'm trying to say, by all means take a stab at it.

Second, I was recently reading an article about a working fire which had several pictures attached. In one picture, a two man team is shown trying to make entry into a doorway, while there is one FF on the roof above with flames through the roof. One of the two men on the team was a chief. Now, I don't know if the chief was from the first due department or a mutual aid chief, but in my mind a chief should be overseeing operations and directing other teams on the fireground, not taking a hands on roll. Granted manpower may have been an issue at that point, I don't know. Just my 2 cents.

Third, at the same fire that I mentioned in the first sitaution and looking at pictures from the same publication as the picture from the above article, there is one last thing that I noticed for now. I saw one FF on scene at the fire and 2 FF's in a picture at a working structure fire wearing 3/4 boots up to the hips and turnout coats. While 3/4 boots may still serve a purpose, i.e. pumpouts, by no means should they be used at working structure fire. I'm sure they worked well "back in the day," but today isn't "back in the day" and there are things to think about, NFPA, firefighter safety, etc. What would happen to a department if an FF wearing 3/4 boots on the fireground got hurt?

Again, these are just some of things to think about. As I said, I'm not tryin to question fireground decisions that I had nothing to do with, I'm just looking for some other opinions. Please feel free to add or clarify.

Edited December 1, 2008 by gpdexplorer

[markmets415 524]

To make this simple, my company as well as all the others in our battalion all use the same tag system. Our first engine has an accountablity board with several rings attached and is divided into section (assignments). So if I am M/A the system is the same, hand in the tag and it gets placed to where my assignment is.

Our Operating Guideline for reponse to M/A is also pretty simple. Only the apparatus requested and one officer is supposed to respond to the scene, if followed then there really should not be any arrivals in thier POV. All others are supposed to respond to our station to man the other equipment or if manpower is requested to the scene, if the manpower is requested those responders then would report to our officer on the scene for accountability.

I myself routinely respond with one of our M/A depts as I actually live in their district. I have permission from my Chief and their Chief to do this and I go directly to the station which is about 1 mile from my house, if I don't make a rig, then I go back home, my avatar photo was from a garage fire last week when I responded with the M/A dept. (JHK).

Edited December 1, 2008 by markmets415

[Bunkers 0]

Gpd,

I agree with you when talking about the FF from a mutaul aid department going right to work. I think that is one of the problems with guys responding in their personal vehicles. I think you're right when you say he should wait for the rest of his guys so they can stage with their department and get orders as a group but if something needs to be done, I dont think the IC would totally disregard the man waiting around and ready to go.

As far as the chief going in.. he could be a deputy assisting the initial team. I dont see any reason why the IC cant have one of his chief officers inside as an extra source of current interior conditions, progress or lack of progress. The IC should be outside doing the same.

[ex-commish 490]

"First, there was recently a working fire close to my girlfriend's house so I stopped by to see what I could learn from exterior tactics in motion. Numerous mutual aid departments were called to the scene. Shortly after one department was requested I noticed a member from that department come to the scene in his POV, gear up and go directly to work. At that point in time, the situation was pretty well in control. In my opinion, if you're responding mutual aid and arrive at a scene before your department, you should await the arrival of your department before going to work. One reason is accountability. Your department needs to know where you are. If you get there, go to work, and they don't know that you are there, what is going to happen if the proverbial "Sh*t hits the fan?" Who is going to come save you. While you might make contact with your chief, officer, etc via other means i.e. Nextel or what have you, you should still wait. Hopefully I'm making my point here and not just rambling. But if any one has anything to add or clarify what I'm trying to say, by all means take a stab at it."

Accountability is crucial. How it is set up and ran is even more crucial. Maybe there are pre-arranged plans with mutual aid members in this scenario. Not knowing the whole story makes it hard to comment on it.

"Second, I was recently reading an article about a working fire which had several pictures attached. In one picture, a two man team is shown trying to make entry into a doorway, while there is one FF on the roof above with flames through the roof. One of the two men on the team was a chief. Now, I don't know if the chief was from the first due department or a mutual aid chief, but in my mind a chief should be overseeing operations and directing other teams on the fireground, not taking a hands on roll. Granted manpower may have been an issue at that point, I don't know. Just my 2 cents."

Could of been a shortage of manpower? Mutual aid chief? Pictures don't always tell the whole story.

"Third, at the same fire that I mentioned in the first sitaution and looking at pictures from the same publication as the picture from the above article, there is one last thing that I noticed for now. I saw one FF on scene at the fire and 2 FF's in a picture at a working structure fire wearing 3/4 boots up to the hips and turnout coats. While 3/4 boots may still serve a purpose, i.e. pumpouts, by no means should they be used at working structure fire. I'm sure they worked well "back in the day," but today isn't "back in the day" and there are things to think about, NFPA, firefighter safety, etc. What would happen to a department if an FF wearing 3/4 boots on the fireground got hurt? "

Perhaps the dept in question has not transitioned to bunker pants. Not every dept in the US is NFPA compliant.

"Again, these are just some of things to think about. As I said, I'm not tryin to question fireground decisions that I had nothing to do with, I'm just looking for some other opinions. Please feel free to add or clarify."

There is nothing wrong with asking questions. We all learn from answers to questions we ask. It is when one stops asking questions is the time to worry. There is a wealth of knowlegde on here so tap into it.

Edited December 1, 2008 by moosecfd368
fixed quotations

[markmets415 524]

One note worth stating, GPD your observations are very good.

[Atv300 69]

I deff agree that somone from a m/a department should not go to work without some sort of accountibility. As Mark stated he comes to our calls alot and I try and go to his departments calls when I can. As he stated permision from chiefs is key i belive before any calls like this are run, if its in our case where our own departmen might not actually be called m/a. As far as calls that the company is called to the scene for m/a i belive if at all posible you should have to report to your officer and or apperatus o/s. As with everything thier are cercumstances that would change that practice i.e. you live closer to the call your going to then your department in that case you should report to an officer of thier department and go to work when given a task. I know and Mark can agree man power issuse come into play so when it comes down to it if you play by the rules, stay safe, and are there to help most of your m/a departments welcome the help.

[abaduck 123]

First, there was recently a working fire close to my girlfriend's house so I stopped by to see what I could learn from exterior tactics in motion. Numerous mutual aid departments were called to the scene. Shortly after one department was requested I noticed a member from that department come to the scene in his POV, gear up and go directly to work.

Now I've only been involved in the fire service for a couple of years, so I'm hardly qualified to throw mud at anyone, and we don't know the full story, but taking the above observation at face value:

1. Doesn't the above meet the definition of 'freelancing'?

2. My understanding of how MA works is that the MA company members will remain under the command of their own officers. If this guy is going right to work, without even checking in with the first-due dept. officers, let alone waiting for his own officers to arrive... how is that supposed to work? Where is he in the chain of command? That's why I used the 'f-word' in response 1. above...

Mike

PS... MA members responding to the scene in their POVs sounds like a recipe for the above situation to happen... which is why it's utterly forbidden in my department. You go to the firehouse, you get on a rig, and you go to the scene as a company, with an officer, ready to go to work. Or you don't go at all. Now geography (suburban vs. rural) may be a factor here, but I can certainly see why it's something that many would wish to discourage.

Edited December 1, 2008 by abaduck

[Guest SQUADco119]

In my department wether its mutual aid or not we encourage members to report the FH to ride the rig. For the most part thier isnt any problems. Memebers are allowed to go to the scene in thier car as long as the requested rigs got out. We are allowed to keep our gear in our POVs due to the fact we have five different companies and three FHs and are allowed and encouraged to ride other companies rigs within the department. As far as I know wether its a department policy SOG whatever, when you show up on scene on a rig or your POV you should know as a firefighter that you should not do something till told to do so under the direct orders of command and operations. To Assist in the accountiablity system so it works and for better operations in my department wether your on the rig or not you report to your companies rig/officer and tag in and wait for orders, if the officer is not around at the time you still tag in and let the driver know you are here and he then will transmit to your officer that your are there and if anything is needed he will call you for it. If nothing is needed we are to report over to the command post who is in touch with operations and we work from there. Plus your second tag goes with the SO(safety officer) and he writes down your assignment and you go to work. Also if its Mutual aid and you show up in your POV before your department you are to report to the IC and wait for your department to arrive .

Basicly every department here I think has rules and SOGs to prevent freelancing and to ensure the best accountabilty but as we always see no matter what we do you can never prevent stupidity and rule breaking completely!

[gpdexplorer 46]

Thank you every one for replying.

One note to add though, I never got to see whether or not that the member of the mutual aid company checked in with chiefs or officers of the first due department, so its a possibility. This member came from a department that had a 4 mile ride to the scene, so about a 15 minute response time give or take.