Poughkeepsie opinion - Let volunteers help put out city fires

[markmets415 524]

Wow 1982??

Easy there Joe, I keep telling you guys I am to old for this don't I.

Anyways I will have call a friend of mine in Albany to see if I can get the latest on the belonging to 2 dept law.

[markmets415 524]

Can I belong to more than one fire department?

While talking with various firefighters throughout the State of New York, I have often heard the question; can I join or belong to more than one fire department? I have received phone calls, emails and letters asking if I knew of anyone who could answer this question. You would not believe the number of people who want to, have, and insisted on being members of a multitude of fire departments. I hope the answer or at least try to clarify this subject.

In 1993 the New York State General Municipal Law, section 209 was changed, specifically the section dealing with mutual aid. Before this change in 1993, if you come across a situation in which you may be able to help, you could identify yourself to the officer in command and ask if you could assist in the matter. The most important issue was that by approaching it in this manner the, officer in command assumed responsibility and liability for your actions. This is not like the mutual aid system to which we are accustomed. Which the department being called to a mutual aid call is responsible for their own personnel.

The law changed in 1993 allowing a firefighter who "because of their residence or unusual occupation is regularly in the area..." to offer their services on an "on-going basis." So what exactly does that mean for the thousands of volunteer firefighters in this state? It means that you can contact the chief officer of a volunteer department in the village or city in which you work or live of which you are not a member of and offer your assistance in an "on-going basis" and not by incident. The 1993 amendments also gave the firefighters all rights, privileges and immunities of a regular member while "assisting such fire company or fire department at a fire or other emergency scene." This means that the firefighter in covered and carried by the new fire department while under their command, not of the firefighters host department. Insurance coverage was the center of this. The firefighters and all departments involved had to be covered in some way. One problem did arise on this issue over time and was addressed this year. The 1993 law changes did not include training with the new department. When we go back and recognize the purpose of the law was to allow for coverage of these individuals, not being covered for training purposes was a real problem. Senator Ken LaValle (Suffolk County) and Rep. Paul Tokasz (Erie County) have successfully sponsored a bill, signed by Gov. George Pataki to address this training issue. This new bill added the phrase, "or for the purpose of training with such Fire Company or fire department."

So it now comes to the moment we've all been waiting for..................Can I be a member of more than one department? NO, NO, NO. Nobody can be a member of two or more departments at the same time. You can offer your assistance in an "on-going basis," but you cannot be a member of more than one Fire Company or fire department.

by:Robert Moyer

Well I hope this helps enlighten those of you who actually read this, so here it goes. My background for this topic includes being a firefighter for alost 10 years and currently Captain of my Rescue Squad and a practicing Paramedic. I have extensive training in hazardous materials, high angle rope rescue, auto extrication, interior attack and many others.

Edited November 16, 2008 by markmets415

[Bnechis 3,961]

no you stated that if we received help all the time there was something wrong and thats what i ment..

Recieving help and needing help are 2 different issues.

I said: "If your dept. needs to use non dept members who are "offering there services" on a regular basis, you have major problems."

If you need this type of help on a simple call (i.e. AFA, car fire, room and content fire, etc.) then your department does not have enough members and you must change that in a substantial way. Maybe it is the best indicator that the dept. needs to consolidate with other dept(s) or hire career or even paid on call firefighters

What this also means is that you are not meeting any of the standards that exist in the fire service (NFPA 1500, 1710, 1720, ISO, ISMA, CFAI, etc.)

I have no problem offering help or depending on the situation, recieving help.

[gamewell45 258]

I always find it kind of funny. When times are tough, and cuts need to be made, noone signs up to volunteer to plow the streets, pickup trash or clean schools, but when it comes to fighting fires it's another story.

Regardless of your personal opinions about the whole paid v. volunteer issue, please remember that the firefighters in the City of Poughkeepsie earn a salary and support their families with it.

You have a good point, but historically people don't normally sign up to volunteer to plow streets, pick-up trash or clean schools, however there is a long history of citizens volunteering to fight fires as it's an immediate life/property hazard. Afterall--as I'm sure you'll agree--the fire service was initially founded by volunteers!

[ex-commish 490]

Wow 1982??

Do I dare say 1980 for me ???

[Guest]

Do I dare say 1980 for me ???

it was 1986 for me

[Guest]

Recieving help and needing help are 2 different issues.

I said: "If your dept. needs to use non dept members who are "offering there services" on a regular basis, you have major problems."

If you need this type of help on a simple call (i.e. AFA, car fire, room and content fire, etc.) then your department does not have enough members and you must change that in a substantial way. Maybe it is the best indicator that the dept. needs to consolidate with other dept(s) or hire career or even paid on call firefighters

What this also means is that you are not meeting any of the standards that exist in the fire service (NFPA 1500, 1710, 1720, ISO, ISMA, CFAI, etc.)

I have no problem offering help or depending on the situation, recieving help.

i never said we needed it i said it was nice to see the extra help

[markmets415 524]

i never said we needed it i said it was nice to see the extra help

Is this my invitation to stay home????

Joe I believe he was talking in general not specific to my or yours or anyone else's dept., the point was that if the XYZ dept needed and relied on this help then they were in trouble and should be looking at the proper avenues to correct it.

[Guest]

that was not my intention and i hope your always there for my company

[markmets415 524]

that was not my intention and i hope your always there for my company

I know what you meant, I'll be there, see I even had the right color and clothing ID this morning, getting better, maybe I can get a set of JHK and Wassaic gear and sew them together.

Edited November 17, 2008 by markmets415

[Guest]

I know what you meant, I'll be there, see I even had the right color and clothing ID this morning, getting better, maybe I can get a set of JHK and Wassaic gear and sewn them together.

would that be jassic or whk?

[markmets415 524]

Anyways back to the topic at hand, it should be interesting to see where this goes with the volunteers, and as stated earilier let's not forget the PFD members and their families as this clearly is their livelyhood. Also the impact as stated if these others volunteer members leave thier current dept. and the impact to that dept.

[Tickfighter 0]

You have a good point, but historically people don't normally sign up to volunteer to plow streets, pick-up trash or clean schools, however there is a long history of citizens volunteering to fight fires as it's an immediate life/property hazard. Afterall--as I'm sure you'll agree--the fire service was initially founded by volunteers!

People can't volunteer to do these things because it would interfere with the municipal services unions. They protect their jobs just as fire unions protect their jobs. And as history will show, all of these jobs were once done for free, and eventually didn't have enough people volunteering to do the jobs. Hence the reason for the labor unions, and fire unions, to guarantee the services, not hope for them.

[Guest jbgfd314]

Maybe its different in westchester but i dont think a volunteer dept in Dutchess county would ever turn down help!!!!!

I disagree. There are too many departments that are to proud to accept assistance unless it's absolutely necessary. I have come across countless accidents with injuries and was told politely by the incident commanders that my assistance would not be needed while they were the only members on scene at that time. I'm not trying to be a buff,I'm just try to help another department out until they have sufficient manpower on scene.

[abaduck 123]

(the subject being volunteers picking up trash)

People can't volunteer to do these things because it would interfere with the municipal services unions.

Say again? You never get Scouts etc. and other community groups picking up trash and generally patrolling the area?

Mike

[gamewell45 258]

People can't volunteer to do these things because it would interfere with the municipal services unions. They protect their jobs just as fire unions protect their jobs. And as history will show, all of these jobs were once done for free, and eventually didn't have enough people volunteering to do the jobs. Hence the reason for the labor unions, and fire unions, to guarantee the services, not hope for them.

Actually if you follow labor history, unions came in years later, after employees became upset with low wages, lack of benefits and job security. The unions don't guarantee services, as the municipalities control the level of service you get, but rather job security, which is one of their primary functions as a labor organization.

[Danger 160]

Somethings fishy here...in a time when volunteer numbers are declining...Whats the overhead on starting a program from scratch? How much interest is there really in an urban environment? What are the logistics of even getting to a scene in a POV in the city? Does this actually address the city's manning issues?

[Turborich 12]

What does Mr. Petsas do for a living?

Edited November 17, 2008 by Turborich

[gamewell45 258]

Somethings fishy here...in a time when volunteer numbers are declining...Whats the overhead on starting a program from scratch? How much interest is there really in an urban environment? What are the logistics of even getting to a scene in a POV in the city? Does this actually address the city's manning issues?

I think its next to impossible to accomplish. First off in most cities its not so much getting around in your pov, rather its amount of alarms that would for many people be too much to handle; secondly, you have union contracts to contend with that in many cases are not volunteer-friendly for obvious reasons; thirdly there would undoubtedly be some negative reaction by some of the paid firefighters who'd view volunteers as a threat to there livelihood and most likely do everything they could legally to make life as uncomfortable for the volunteers as they could. Fourth, they would most likely require training along the same lines as paid firefigthers are required to have in order to do interior work and for many volunteers, who already hold down full time jobs, the training requirements would be overwhelming for many of them. While start up costs might be minimal since your not paying salaries, the major issue would be recruiting volunteers from the city to become involved in the volunteer fire service.

The only way i could ever see the usage of volunteers in a city-type setting would be for them to have there own house/truck for starters (that would help to partially eliminate any potential animosity between paid/volunteer), allow for bunk-ins for those who desire at the house, much like the system in place in states like Pa and Maryland. Depending on the training they decide to recieve would determine there status (interior, exterior, etc), work language into the collective bargaining agreement with fire labor unions allowing volunteers on the fire scene and spelling out what there duties can consist of and mount an extensive campaign to recruit volunteers. It would be a long and arduous task to make happen with a successful conclusion and there's no guarantees; its more of like a wish list. Unless the economy really tanks big time, I seriously doubt you'd ever see a city attempt something radical like this.

Just my .02

Edited November 17, 2008 by gamewell45

[FFPCogs 863]

If in fact the situation is or were to become so dire that volunteer FFs would be needed to guarantee fire protection it would be the first role reversal that I am aware of. Usually it is the lack of volunteers that is the issue. I would hope that no one would be faced with losing their jobs, that is really the worst possible scenario. But in these times of hard economic realities the opinion that volunteers may actually be needed albeit generally unpopular may not be so far fetched. The news continues to spew stories of gloom and doom regarding the economy, and even if only half true it would serve all well to focus some attention to the what ifs of depleted fire protection due to budgetary woes. Unlike the 1930s or even the 1970s when many cities and towns had only volunteer fire departments, today many communities have at least some career personnel that are needed to protect the community. What happens to those communities if God forbid (and I do mean that) any career fire personnel are let go long term?

No politicking, but if as many think things will get worse before they get better are we ready?

Cogs

[x129K 1,393]

The topic of this thread is quite misleading, for it is not the City that wants the volunteers, but a small handful of "wannabe's" that want the City.

[gss131 212]

Bingo !!

[squ1d30 3]

while i have no objections to people volunteering in their local respective departments if that is indeed availabe as an option, i do also understand the need to go to a neiboring department if that is the only option to be a volunteer, and as everyone involved in the fire service in and around dutchess county knows that the volunteer departments are a huge part of what makes up the fire service in the county. after reading this article however this seems like nothing more than someone who just wants to be a "big city fireman". this is not meant to dis respect anyone, but if you need to go to arlington, fairview, roosevelt etc to volunteer than do so and accept it, be grateful you can get the training knowledge and experience they are willing to gove you. if this guy wants in the city that bad, TAKE the TEST and get on the job. just my 2 cents

[ltmdepas3280 1]

If in fact the situation is or were to become so dire that volunteer FFs would be needed to guarantee fire protection it would be the first role reversal that I am aware of. Usually it is the lack of volunteers that is the issue. I would hope that no one would be faced with losing their jobs, that is really the worst possible scenario. But in these times of hard economic realities the opinion that volunteers may actually be needed albeit generally unpopular may not be so far fetched. The news continues to spew stories of gloom and doom regarding the economy, and even if only half true it would serve all well to focus some attention to the what ifs of depleted fire protection due to budgetary woes. Unlike the 1930s or even the 1970s when many cities and towns had only volunteer fire departments, today many communities have at least some career personnel that are needed to protect the community. What happens to those communities if God forbid (and I do mean that) any career fire personnel are let go long term?

No politicking, but if as many think things will get worse before they get better are we ready?

Cogs

So my question is this.....What makes anyone think that city or other S#1Tstirres, that the people you are counting on volunteering won't be out looking for a job......maybe just maybe providing for your family would take top priority....just spitballing

[FFPCogs 863]

So my question is this.....What makes anyone think that city or other S#1Tstirres, that the people you are counting on volunteering won't be out looking for a job......maybe just maybe providing for your family would take top priority....just spitballing

Well I suppose us sh*t stirrers and everyone else in the community can sit by and watch as homes, including possibly our own, and whatever businesses are left burn down.

Cogs

[x129K 1,393]

Well I suppose us sh*t stirrers and everyone else in the community can sit by and watch as homes, including possibly our own, and whatever businesses are left burn down.

Cogs

Luckily, the residents of the City of Poughkeepsie, the city mentioned in this thread, have the professional firefighters and officers of "Engines 1, 2, 3, Ladder 1 and Tower Ladder 2" protecting them 24/7/365

[Guest]

and 366 on leap yrs

[gamewell45 258]

While we are on the topic; anyone have any idea what year the last of the volunteers in Poughkeepsie were phased out/disbanded?

[Guest]

While we are on the topic; anyone have any idea what year the last of the volunteers in Poughkeepsie were phased out/disbanded?

i have no idea but i do know that NYC still has 3 volly houses

[JBE 328]

i have no idea but i do know that NYC still has 3 volly houses

There are actually more than that.

Richmond and Oceanic(SI, and the only ones we dispatch)

West Hamilton Beach, Broad Channel, Roxbury, Point Breeze, Rockaway Point(Queens)

Gerritsen Beach(Brooklyn)

Edgewater Park (Bronx)

I didn't include Aviation, because I am not sure they are still existing, nor do I count this so called Bronx Fire Patrol 4, because I'm not quite sure they are even legit.