Poughkeepsie opinion - Let volunteers help put out city fires

[JetPhoto 626]

Valley Views: Let volunteers help put out city fires

By Chris Petsas • November 16, 2008

Buzz up! It's 2 in the morning in the City of Poughkeepsie. A frantic 9-1-1 call has been placed by you - your house has caught fire and is burning.

Our paid and respected fire department responds with its crew. As the fire grows bigger and destroys more of your home, down the street, a neighbor (who is a volunteer firefighter in a neighboring fire company) listens to their fire radio - wishing they could help you and our fire department fight the blaze.

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/article...07/1004/opinion

[AFS1970 504]

There are, regardless of the merits of volunteer firefighting, some operational concerns that I would think need to be addressed.

Since all firefighters need to be trained, it is not like people can walk in volunteer and be on the line the next day. So even if a new Volunteer organization were to start in the City, it would likely not be operational in time to provide the budget savings. I also can not see how adding volunteers can in any way save jobs? It can increase fire safety for the community, it can increase long term savings, but I just don't see it having any short term value to the current budget. I don't think this will be the miracle cure all that some are looking for in Poughkeepsie. Now, even if the Dozen or so city residents who volunteer outside of town, all came on board with this plan, would it be enough to make a difference? How big an organization are they looking for?

Now if all 12 joined up, what would the impact be on their other departments? Would they have to stop volunteering there? If not, would their responses go down as they divide their time between the two? What would be the adverse impact on the surrounding towns, which in effect might increase demands on the city and cause the new city volunteers to have to respond to cover their own vacancies.

[Guest]

Someone correct me if im wrong but is there not a law or rule in NY that says you cant volunteer for two fire companies?? i believe it also says you can not volunteer and be paid by the same fire company??

[markmets415 524]

Currently the law is that you cannot belong to two volunteer depts. There was a law proposed seeking to change that so if you have a vacation home or something similar upstate let's say then you would be able to belong to two, makes sense. Joe that would mean that we both could do it.

Members can get permission to render assistance like we do Joe, we have permission from the other dept and are able to respond to assist because we work or live in another district.

Excellent point made by BFD: Now if all 12 joined up, what would the impact be on their other departments? Would they have to stop volunteering there? If not, would their responses go down as they divide their time between the two? What would be the adverse impact on the surrounding towns, which in effect might increase demands on the city and cause the new city volunteers to have to respond to cover their own vacancies.

This is something that wasn't probably wasn't thought of.

Edited November 16, 2008 by markmets415

[Bnechis 3,961]

Someone correct me if im wrong but is there not a law or rule in NY that says you cant volunteer for two fire companies?? i believe it also says you can not volunteer and be paid by the same fire company??

NYS says you cant volunteer in 2 VFD's

FLSA (federal) says you cant volunteer where you work (in general, not just in the FD)

[ex-commish 490]

Someone correct me if im wrong but is there not a law or rule in NY that says you cant volunteer for two fire companies?? i believe it also says you can not volunteer and be paid by the same fire company??

You can not hold membership in 2 fire departments but you can be a mutual aid member with another department. We have has d pre-arranged mutual aid memberhsip with members from other departments.

[Guest]

In Dutchess its more of if there a call in y dept I am a volunteer in x dept do you need my help in y dept to the on scene commander with a few exceptions to people who have been doing it for years in the mutual aid town of theirs

[abaduck 123]

Currently the law is that you cannot belong to two volunteer depts. There was a law proposed seeking to change that so if you have a vacation home or something similar upstate let's say then you would be able to belong to two, makes sense. Joe that would mean that we both could do it.

Members can get permission to render assistance like we do Joe, we have permission from the other dept and are able to respond to assist because we work or live in another district.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a general provision that a trained FF from any FD can offer assistance at any incident scene - offer their services and place themselves under the command of the IC running the scene?

I can see problems with that, I'm not sure how keen an IC would be to accept the services of a FF they know nothing about, in terms of training, performance etc. - but I'm sure I've read it's possible.

Mike

[Guest]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a general provision that a trained FF from any FD can offer assistance at any incident scene - offer their services and place themselves under the command of the IC running the scene?

I can see problems with that, I'm not sure how keen an IC would be to accept the services of a FF they know nothing about, in terms of training, performance etc. - but I'm sure I've read it's possible.

Mike

This is what Mark and I were talking about but you are correct how do we know that firefighter has had his osha, physical or is even trained in what we need to have done withoug asking (got time to do that at a fire) and actually being told the truth

[FFPCogs 863]

Another important factor here is what impact allowing any volunteer FFs would have from the union's perspective. I highly doubt that the union leadership would welcome people volunteering to fill what were once paid positions. And this isn't about the career/volunteer debate exclusively, we are after all talking about people's livelihoods. What happens when the budget turns around and any vacancies are re-filled or would they be? Why pay for what you get for free right? Or why keep people on when they are no longer needed as volunteers?

Unfortunately I don't think an all paid career fire department with IAFF representation can " step back" and allow volunteers, it simply is not in their member's best interest.

I applaud the author for his common sense approach and all things being equal would love to see such a move, but there are just too many obstacles from what I can see.

Just my $.02

Cogs

[Bnechis 3,961]

This is what Mark and I were talking about but you are correct how do we know that firefighter has had his osha, physical or is even trained in what we need to have done withoug asking (got time to do that at a fire) and actually being told the truth

Even if the volunteer had equal or even a higher level of training and experience.... what about team work? Why do we have SOP's? You don't need to know how we do it? or do you?

If your dept. needs to use non dept members who are "offering there services" on a regular basis, you have major problems.

This writer also assumes that volunteers are free. Wouldn't PFD have to purchase PPE, pay for medicals, workers comp. and provideing career supervision/training?

There is also an assumption that a volunteer firefighter is equal to a career firefighter. ISO says it takes 3 to equal 1. So if PFD layed off 4 ff's (1 per shift) it would require a minimum of 3 volunteers to respond to every "fire" call just to stay even. Past threads have said that PFD is understaffed now. Historically most combo depts have trouble getting volunteers to respond to AFA's. This could change PFD's ISO PPC rating which could cost property owners millions$$.

Finally, as already mentioned, where will these volunteers come from? Will they just be "stealing them" from adjacent FD's who in turn may need to hire the laid off PFD members.

[Guest]

Even if the volunteer had equal or even a higher level of training and experience.... what about team work? Why do we have SOP's? You don't need to know how we do it? or do you?

If your dept. needs to use non dept members who are "offering there services" on a regular basis, you have major problems.

This writer also assumes that volunteers are free. Wouldn't PFD have to purchase PPE, pay for medicals, workers comp. and provideing career supervision/training?

There is also an assumption that a volunteer firefighter is equal to a career firefighter. ISO says it takes 3 to equal 1. So if PFD layed off 4 ff's (1 per shift) it would require a minimum of 3 volunteers to respond to every "fire" call just to stay even. Past threads have said that PFD is understaffed now. Historically most combo depts have trouble getting volunteers to respond to AFA's. This could change PFD's ISO PPC rating which could cost property owners millions$$.

Finally, as already mentioned, where will these volunteers come from? Will they just be "stealing them" from adjacent FD's who in turn may need to hire the laid off PFD members.

Maybe its different in westchester but i dont think a volunteer dept in Dutchess county would ever turn down help!!!!!

Edited November 16, 2008 by JHK3605

[NWFDMedic 58]

This article is what it is, opinion. If your house was going to burn to the ground before the City of Poughkeepsie 2nd alarm assignments show up (generally combo departments with staff on duty themselves), it was going to burn to the ground to begin with. To those reading the article that don't know how the system works, I'm sure they think that the City firefighters are sitting there short of help for a significant period before mutual aid arrives. That's hogwash. Any good first arriving chief or officer who shows up to the "fully involved" fire is going to immediately strike a second alarm and get the equipment on it's way. In some cases, I would imagine Arlington might even be CLOSER to some precints of the City than some of the remote city stations.

I just don't think adding volunteers to a City system this large makes any sense, especially in the face of layoffs. The IAFF would have the City in court, and rightly so.

[abaduck 123]

Even if the volunteer had equal or even a higher level of training and experience.... what about team work? Why do we have SOP's? You don't need to know how we do it? or do you?

A perfectly good point. So... you have a FF from another dept. show up on scene, pair them up with one of your own members and get them throwing ladders. Needs doing, often neglected, not that difficult from an SOP standpoint. There's always work to do!

There is also an assumption that a volunteer firefighter is equal to a career firefighter. ISO says it takes 3 to equal 1. So if PFD layed off 4 ff's (1 per shift) it would require a minimum of 3 volunteers to respond to every "fire" call just to stay even.

I think (with respect) you may be misunderstanding ISO - but correct me if I'm wrong: with a career FD, you have a guaranteed response. If you send 2 & 2 to a scene, you know exactly what manpower you'll get. The '3 to 1' thing comes in when counting company *members* IIRC; it assumes that only 1/3 of the vollie members will respond, so you need three times as many active members in a vollie FD to equal the coverage you would get with an equivalent paid FD. It doesn't say that a vollie FF *on the scene* is only 'worth' 1/3 of a paid FF on the scene.

As I said, that's my understanding; if someone who knows ISO knows different please correct me.

Mike

Edited November 16, 2008 by abaduck

[Guest Local596Secretary]

As BFD already stated, the cost factor in beginning a volunteer organization would be way to much for the taxpayers to take on. Equipment and training alone would make the cost unattainable, let alone insurance, workers comp, and losap. it is not the instant fix for tough financial times that Mr. Petsas believes it to be.

I have stated it on these forums in the past and will do so again. Volunteers are to be comended and respected. While I work for the City, I live in Marlboro and am always impressed with the efficiency and professionalism they show. The issue I have as a career firefighter is trust. I have a group of firefighters I work with. I know what each of them is going to do at any given scene and they know me. They know my shortcomings and I know thiers. I have a family at home that loves me and needs me and I know these men and women will get me home safe. I can't see doing that with just anyone.

Some of you may be aware of who Chris Petsas is and what he stands for. If not, ask someone from his former department. While he pretends to speak for all the Exempts, Thier board says he does not.

[CPFD91206 0]

Dohhhhhh round 2

[markmets415 524]

Even if the volunteer had equal or even a higher level of training and experience.... what about team work? Why do we have SOP's? You don't need to know how we do it? or do you?

If your dept. needs to use non dept members who are "offering there services" on a regular basis, you have major problems.

This writer also assumes that volunteers are free. Wouldn't PFD have to purchase PPE, pay for medicals, workers comp. and provideing career supervision/training?

There is also an assumption that a volunteer firefighter is equal to a career firefighter. ISO says it takes 3 to equal 1. So if PFD layed off 4 ff's (1 per shift) it would require a minimum of 3 volunteers to respond to every "fire" call just to stay even. Past threads have said that PFD is understaffed now. Historically most combo depts have trouble getting volunteers to respond to AFA's. This could change PFD's ISO PPC rating which could cost property owners millions$$.

Finally, as already mentioned, where will these volunteers come from? Will they just be "stealing them" from adjacent FD's who in turn may need to hire the laid off PFD members.

I actually live in another fire district and when available have clearance to respond to that FD calls. I used to be a member there and know the apparatus, am qualified to drive them, know the operating guidelines, the members and on and on. They generally do not have a manpower problem but as with most of us in Dutchess that do not have a paid service the day time manpower is pretty limited. The officers welcome the help as my dept. welcomes there membership, we all know each other well and the communications is very good. Speaking of AFA, I went to an AFA with the other dept actually 5am this morning.

[markmets415 524]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a general provision that a trained FF from any FD can offer assistance at any incident scene - offer their services and place themselves under the command of the IC running the scene?

I can see problems with that, I'm not sure how keen an IC would be to accept the services of a FF they know nothing about, in terms of training, performance etc. - but I'm sure I've read it's possible.

Mike

As a past Chief it is one thing to accept help from a FF that you know, but to accept it from one that you have no idea of their training, abilities and on and on most likely that would not be a sound choice to make.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Maybe its different in westchester but i dont think a volunteer dept in Dutchess county would ever turn down help!!!!!

I never said depts in Westchester or in Dutchess would "turn down" help. You missed my entire point.

[gamewell45 258]

The fact of the matter is if the city of Poughkeepsie wants volunteer firefighters, you'll have them irrespective of what the fire department wants. The only caveat is that the city would have to honor the exisiting labor agreement; and if that agreement says that there can be no volunteers utilized to replace paid members of the department or if they have any exclusitivity clauses, then it makes no sense to form a volunteer squad. You could train them, equip them, insure them, give them all the physicals you want, but all they'd be able to do is just stand there and cheer on the paid staff as they work the fire.

I don't think its out of the realm of possibility, if the economy continues its downward slide as it has been doing recently, you could see fire agencies negotiate (for those who are union) language into contracts permitting the use of volunteers once again. Just like it happened in Pa. during the 1980's in some of the area departments surrounding Pittsburgh. In a few cases, entire paid departments were disbanded and converted to all volunteer departments as there was just no monies to support a paid department. If it comes down to school vs. paid fire we all know where its going to go.

Pray for the economy to recover folks.

[Bnechis 3,961]

I think (with respect) you may be misunderstanding ISO - but correct me if I'm wrong: with a career FD, you have a guaranteed response. If you send 2 & 2 to a scene, you know exactly what manpower you'll get. The '3 to 1' thing comes in when counting company *members* IIRC; it assumes that only 1/3 of the vollie members will respond, so you need three times as many active members in a vollie FD to equal the coverage you would get with an equivalent paid FD. It doesn't say that a vollie FF *on the scene* is only 'worth' 1/3 of a paid FF on the scene.

As I said, that's my understanding; if someone who knows ISO knows different please correct me. Mike

Having evaluated over a doz. depts. for ISO improvements, I think I get their system.

ISO clearly requires 12 on-duty (in house) firefighters and an IC or 36 on-call (from home/work) firefighters and an IC on EVERY fire call. This is not just on the rolls, this is on every fire call. For combo depts., for every on-duty member you get credit for 3 call members.

ISO does not count the number of members in your dept. for response purposes, they count the average # that respond. If you have a minimum manning policy, they follow that as the average.

ISO does count the number of members and divides the total training hours by that number to get the average training hours per member. This hurts departments that do not seperate social members, members who are away at school or military or have medical issues that prevent them from responding/training (even if temporary). Having lots of members who do not do enough training hurts your rating.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Bnechis

[FFPCogs 863]

Good point Game about the economy. If it comes down to it who will protect and serve when there's no money? I would bet that a few laid off career FFs would most likely be first in line to help in those circumstances.

When worst comes to worst most of us are firefighters first.

BTW I am praying...

Cogs

[Guest FFNick]

I always find it kind of funny. When times are tough, and cuts need to be made, noone signs up to volunteer to plow the streets, pickup trash or clean schools, but when it comes to fighting fires it's another story.

Regardless of your personal opinions about the whole paid v. volunteer issue, please remember that the firefighters in the City of Poughkeepsie earn a salary and support their families with it.

[AFS1970 504]

This is not about if Volunteer Firefighters are good or bad, better or worse than Career Firefighters. It is about what is best for Poughkeepsie. I have the benefit of being able to look at this in abstract terms as an outsider. I am sure that there are many on here that have far better frames of reference than I do in this matter.

Like I said, forming a volunteer force in Poughkeepsie may help, but not as fast or as much as the writer thinks. If the system depends on mutual aid members who are not full members but respond and provide assistance, how on earth do you quantify the size of your force, to ISO or anyone else? These members may well be a valuable resourse to many communities but I can't imagine them being the backbone of a new enterprise.

On a semi related tangent here, how does a state law (in any state) that restricts how many departments you can volunteer with, relate to the recent IAFC position paper that respects the right of members to serve multiple departments? It seems that these are at least conflicting in spirit if not in practice. Should laws like these be changed, both as a sign of the times and also in face of the IAFC position?

[ex-commish 490]

On a semi related tangent here, how does a state law (in any state) that restricts how many departments you can volunteer with, relate to the recent IAFC position paper that respects the right of members to serve multiple departments? It seems that these are at least conflicting in spirit if not in practice. Should laws like these be changed, both as a sign of the times and also in face of the IAFC position?

I could never understand why that law exists especially when we are all covered under VFBL in NY.

[Bnechis 3,961]

On a semi related tangent here, how does a state law (in any state) that restricts how many departments you can volunteer with, relate to the recent IAFC position paper that respects the right of members to serve multiple departments? It seems that these are at least conflicting in spirit if not in practice. Should laws like these be changed, both as a sign of the times and also in face of the IAFC position?

Its been NY state law for at least 30 years and it has nothing to do with career or vol depts. It was designed to keep volunteers from multiple volunteer depts.

IAFC wants career members to volunteer, which has been legal in NYS for as long as I can remember.

[Guest]

What exactly 'inspired' NYS to outlaw volunteering in two different departments? I don't see a conflict of interest, does anyone have an idea?

[Guest]

I never said depts in Westchester or in Dutchess would "turn down" help. You missed my entire point.

no you stated that if we received help all the time there was something wrong and thats what i ment..

[markmets415 524]

What exactly 'inspired' NYS to outlaw volunteering in two different departments? I don't see a conflict of interest, does anyone have an idea?

No idea but it has been a law since I have been involved as a volly (1982), as far as I know.

[Guest]

No idea but it has been a law since I have been involved as a volly (1982), as far as I know.

Wow 1982??