Basement Fires-Firefighters fall through floors

[hudson144 150]

A post was put on here mentioning the importance of using the TIC on the first deployed handline. The TIC will help the crews on the 1st line establish if the floor has fire under it. I just read where in Rochester NY and in Baltimore Co. firefighters have fallen through the floors at working fires. Luckily they were only slighty injured. Again-if others can add to this we all can learn from others mishaps. JJC

[FFFORD 27]

given my experience of just over 1 year in the FD now, i can't say that i have the knowledge that others will share but i'll add my $.02. once i got my clearance to go interior, i usually have the TIC with me, just how it has happened it seems. thus i will usually take a peek at the screen to check out the structure. i feel that it is necessary to look at it, but i know a billion other things are happening at the same time. i think it would be good to look first, but from what i hear and have been told, using caution while moving about will do you the best. i know my departments will pair up teams of experienced and somewhat experienced to enter a structure. never somewhat experienced with non experienced and so on...i'm sure others will have much better input...

[markmets415 524]

Here is alittle video on TJI. Trus Joist I- joist for engineered floor and roof joists

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdFLuhxGHps

[hudson144 150]

Great video- don't let that timeline fool you though, the fire that was set underneath may not have built up enough heat to really give accurate results but it certainly did show the difference between the 2. Also a post was on here about the use of glue instead of gusset plates which also contributes to immediate failure under heated conditions.

[markmets415 524]

Correct on the timeline, the burns were open not in a closed floor, I just took the FASNY course on lightweight construction and the instructor had some excellent resources on TJI, well worth attending if it comes to your area.

[markmets415 524]

This paragraph taken from 2007 APA _ The Engineered Wood Association, Form # TT-015C, 11/2007

Firefighters should be aware that while floor sag may be a widely accepted warning of

an impending structural failure, floor sag is not always present or visible prior to

catastrophic collapse in a fire, regardless of the joist type, due to the fire's intensity, the

combination of joist spans and loads present, the location of serious structural fire

damage or simply because it is too dark and/or smoky to see a sag in the floor. This is

true for all types of structural joists, including combustible such as sawn lumber, wood

I-joists, and open web wood trusses and noncombustible members such as lightweight

steel joists.

When unprotected, any lightweight residential floor/ceiling assembly, either combustible

or noncombustible, may fail within just a few minutes of the fire's ignition. When

subjected to a standard ASTM E 119 fire test, for instance, unprotected, fully loaded

sawn-lumber floor joists typically fail in eight to twelve minutes. When fully loaded and

subjected to the same fire-test conditions, unprotected wood I-joist floors typically fail in

four to eight minutes, depending on flange size and web thickness. The few minutes of

difference in endurance times among the different types of joists is of no practical use to

the firefighter for predicting the safety of the floor. It makes sense, therefore, that when

there is a serious fire beneath a floor, there is no "safe" amount of time that anyone can

remain on that floor.

Edited November 10, 2008 by markmets415

[ny10570 745]

TIc is a great tool, but still just another tool. Too often I see guys walking into or around structures with the TIC in front of their face like its attached to their mask. Read the smoke and if you're the officer on the line get a look around the structure a best you can while your guys are getting ready to enter. Now if you suspect a basement fire or even better know you have one go back to basics and sound the floor as you go. The tic should not fundamentally change the way you do things just make them a little more efficient.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Read the smoke and if you're the officer on the line get a look around the structure a best you can while your guys are getting ready to enter. Now if you suspect a basement fire or even better know you have one go back to basics and sound the floor as you go. The tic should not fundamentally change the way you do things just make them a little more efficient.

I agree there is much more to properly sizing up the job, but the TIC is a great asset if you need to make entry above the fire. Sounding the floor puts you within inches of the potential collapse vs. the TIC which gives you a good view of the heat on the floor. You need to evaluate what you're seeing and that can pose difficult as who knows how "white" something needs to be before it's unsafe to crawl on. You still need to sound, but the camera can warn you of issues long before sounding in zero visibility. A few years back on a M/A job my crew was sent in on search behind the already advances line. Using a TIC, just a few feet in we could see the nozzleman and officer and just in front of them a large hole into the basement. We were able to pull them back to the door and abandon the entry without incident. They had no idea how close to a hole they were. Definitely not lightweight construction!

I'm sorry FFFORD but I must note I'd be concerned with letting a one year man use the TIC. How much practical camera time do you have? And how much "Oh Sh*t" I have dead batteries experience do you have searching without a camera. Everyone must remember to back up the camera with basic search techniques of situational awareness, and knowing how to get out in zero visibility. If you don't have the basics mastered, the camera becomes a dangerous crutch.

Edited November 11, 2008 by antiquefirelt

[Guest FFNick]

As it has been mentioned, a good 360 size up by an officer/IC is always a good idea to do before starting an interior attack. Hopefully, if it is in the basement, this is when it will be found out, and crews will be made aware. The TIC is a great tool, but it can not be a crutch. There are times when cameras fail, batteries die, and fire/smoke conditions do not permit the use of the camera.

[firecapt32 282]

Great video-- just used it last night in building construction class.