Forcible Entry: Do You Call For PD?

[x635 4,066]

I'm just curious.

It's 3AM in the morning, and you have a person down. You need to make forcible entry, so you request the FD.

Do you use caution or any method to make sure your victim is not behind the door you're trying to enter?

Now, do you also request the PD, and for what reasons? To witness the need to force entry, to secure the apartment afterwards?

You are technically breaking and entering under implied consent when using forcible entry. What role does PD play in this, and what liabilities does the FD have?

[abaduck 123]

I'm not far out of probation, so not long on experience, but.. how did we know it was a 'person down' situation? How did the call come in? AFAIK the PD would be dispatched to such a scene anyway, ahead of us, and the request for forcible entry would almost certainly come from the PD in the first place...???

Mike

[markmets415 524]

First Seth who made the call? was it a 3rd party call, a welfare check? I would say that based on the information you provided and we, the FD was dispatched then I believe that our 911 center would automatically send the PD.

Now throw in a call for chest pains and we arrive and we get no answer at the door then we would send a member around to see if they can make a visual contact through a window or another door while checking with dispatch to ensure we are at the right location and request the PD to the scene to secure the scene if forcible entry is required.

I would enter through an opening that can be checked to ensure the patient is not present behind it and us the least intrusive entry point as well to minimize property damage. Now as far as breaking and entering I would say that we would not be based on attempting to make patient contact, but some with a legal background will need to answer that one.

We had a call that was explained above and there was no one home, the patient had already left in a private vehicle to the hospital.

Edited November 10, 2008 by markmets415

[x635 4,066]

Let's take a Lifeline Alert. You know, the "Help, I've fallen and I can't get up".

To get around the easy going in the windows scenarios, this is a 6th floor of a senior residence. The super with keys is nowhere to be found. The Lifeline Operator said the caller stated she was going to try and open the door, and Lifeline operator states she heard what sounded like caller falling to floor, and was unable to communicate with caller after that.

Through the lock or rabbit tool with door control would be better then bash the door in, but who's responsibilty is it to replace the door and/or secure the apartment?

[abaduck 123]

The super, I'd say. You make the point that it's a senior residence. It's supposed to be geared to the needs of seniors. It's reasonably foreseeable that seniors will have falls and medical crises with some degree of frequency. If the building management don't make arrangements to have a key available, it's their problem if we have to force the door.

At least that's my take on it. IANAL.

Mike

[Guest mnfbhmc1]

I'm just curious.

It's 3AM in the morning, and you have a person down. You need to make forcible entry, so you request the FD.

Do you use caution or any method to make sure your victim is not behind the door you're trying to enter?

Now, do you also request the PD, and for what reasons? To witness the need to force entry, to secure the apartment afterwards?

You are technically breaking and entering under implied consent when using forcible entry. What role does PD play in this, and what liabilities does the FD have?

PD, is always first on the scene and in front of a hydrant normally(:-), they get called first then the ladder company gets toned out

[flyboy14295 4]

At one of these Senior Residences, could they possibly employ a Knox Box as a master key to all rooms??

Edited November 10, 2008 by flyboy14295

[robert benz 344]

Let's take a Lifeline Alert. You know, the "Help, I've fallen and I can't get up".

To get around the easy going in the windows scenarios, this is a 6th floor of a senior residence. The super with keys is nowhere to be found. The Lifeline Operator said the caller stated she was going to try and open the door, and Lifeline operator states she heard what sounded like caller falling to floor, and was unable to communicate with caller after that.

Through the lock or rabbit tool with door control would be better then bash the door in, but who's responsibilty is it to replace the door and/or secure the apartment?

how about the lockbox keys, then thru the lock, hydro-ram (rabitt tool), then conventional f/e. With that much info, you cant leave without entering, and yes PD should be notified to secure the premisis, and no it isnt the fd's job to replace the door, ALTHOUGH it is good customer relations if you can TRY to resecure the door prior to leaving .

and I hope we stopped "bashing in doors" when the situation didnt warrant it. In my opinion, thats what professional means.

[FFFORD 27]

around my neck of the woods, all the "senior residence" housing have either Knox Boxes or a keypad to which we are equipped with the code to enter. now, should the call be at a residence usually i will ensure that A-i am at the correct residence. B-nature of call i am responding to justifying breaching. and C-who else is en route. from experience i can tell you that i have done both, waited for PD to force, and force a door myself. the PD forcing is pretty self explainable. the call i was on when i forced was a lifeline activation with no response from the caller but agonal respirations were heard by lifeline. i got o/s, ensured i was at the right location, asked for an ETA on police (too long) said ef it, kicked the back door in. entered cautiosly with partners to find my patient, confirmed code. i may not have been correct in my conduct, i am not saying this is what should be done. but at the time i was much younger and found it to be acceptable and practical and had my partner's agreement to force the door myself.

[firecapt32 282]

This one seems pretty easy to answer--if i was sure they needed help and no key, I would make entry notify PD and make sure they are responding. This way I am sure i can turn over the scene to them when I leave and go back to bed!!!

[Guest]

You guys are making much to do about nothing. "Persons down" and Lifeline alerts are a common thing. In Yonkers PD handles the majority of “gain entry” jobs, usually a sector car gets dispatched along with ESU. As long as the emergency is not life threatening, all means will be employed prior to forcing the door. If entry can't be made via adjoining fire escape/balcony, there are no relatives/neighbors with a key and super is not on scene, then a simple rabbit tool is used to gain entry or perhaps a portable ladder to an open window.

Now if the nature of the call specifies that someone is down and bleeding, unconscious or not breathing, the door is forced right away. Time isn’t wasted trying to find an alternate means in these situations.

You can almost ALWAYS bend the door frame back into place in such a way that it will "catch" the deadbolt if a rabbit tool was used. It’s always a good idea to try and resecure the door so that the sector car isn't stuck "babysitting" the apartment.

As far as checking or worrying if the patient is behind the door that is being forced. Not too big of an issue when using a rabbit or a hydra ram. I guess that would be more of an FD concern being that they use different means to gain entry.

[Guest]

This one seems pretty easy to answer--if i was sure they needed help and no key, I would make entry notify PD and make sure they are responding. This way I am sure i can turn over the scene to them when I leave and go back to bed!!!

Comments like this and the one about PD on the hydrant and some of you guys wonder why you're called BACK for washdowns at 3 in the morning.

[x635 4,066]

You guys are making much to do about nothing. "Persons down" and Lifeline alerts are a common thing.

They are, and where I work, they are 90% an actual incident. In fact, my past two LifeAlert calls turned out to be a stroke and the other one a respiratory arrest. The latter required forcible entry resources.

Also, I've seen some EMS agencies carry forcible entry equipment and give training in it. I also feel PD should be given some training and equipment in places where they don't have ESU and do welfare checks.

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

In NYC the request to gain entry is made by the EMS provider on scene and an engine company is assigned to an EMS 911 entry response. Such a request also generates a sector car response. Once on scene the engine officer will confer with ems and then proceed to gain entry. As a matter of course the method is usually conventional. I know some of you feel this is unprofessional and causes unnesecary damage, but we view it as an opportunity to gain valuable experience in the fading art of forcible entry. I suppose not everyone will agree with this approach but I would rather have a guy practice at these types of calls so when he is faced with a tough door at a working fire he has some solid technique to rely on. As for the rabbit tool as opposed to the Irons I think there is a considerable amount of damage done with each so why not give the brothers some experience. As to the sugestion of giving cops and ems forcible entry tools I wont dignify that with a response.

[Guest]

In NYC the request to gain entry is made by the EMS provider on scene and an engine company is assigned to an EMS 911 entry response. Such a request also generates a sector car response. Once on scene the engine officer will confer with ems and then proceed to gain entry. As a matter of course the method is usually conventional. I know some of you feel this is unprofessional and causes unnesecary damage, but we view it as an opportunity to gain valuable experience in the fading art of forcible entry. I suppose not everyone will agree with this approach but I would rather have a guy practice at these types of calls so when he is faced with a tough door at a working fire he has some solid technique to rely on. As for the rabbit tool as opposed to the Irons I think there is a considerable amount of damage done with each so why not give the brothers some experience. As to the sugestion of giving cops and ems forcible entry tools I wont dignify that with a response.

It is pretty unprofessional to intentionally cause more damage than is necessary just for the sole purpose of "training". Isn't that what training days are for? How you would feel if PD or FD responded to your house and caused more damage than what was needed and their excuse was "Well Paul, the brothers needed training in the fading art of........."?

Another reason for trying to limit the amount of damage done is so that the responding sector isn't tied up securing the premise but I guess when you have the luxury of just "turning it over to the cops and going back to bed" that isn't a concern for you.

As for EMS not having basic forcible entry tools, why not? They operate under the same guidelines that FD does. If they get to the scene first now they have to wait on ESU or FD to force when they could have gotten the job done themselves.

Edited November 10, 2008 by Eagleshield

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

I quess I touched a nerve. Listen different regions view things differently thats how we operate and it works for us. Training days are great and very valuable but there is no substitute for the real thing and we seize these opportunities when possible. I quess if someone of my family were in the house and in need of help I wouldnt care what means the F.D. used to get in and care for my loved one, the damage done would be secondary. As far as ems & P.D. carrying tools my comment was more tounge and cheek than anything. But on a serious note if given the tools and on scene first at a fire I could see a door being forced prior to the FD's arrival which could lead to a number of problems. Also from a union standpoint its best to have specific agencies perform specific tasks you know job security and all. Or maybe we could provide ems with guns too, and between calls maybe they could collect the trash. One agency to handle all situations great idea! Yes we hand over these situations to the sector car if we cant secure the door ourselves but as far as returning to bed usually not a luxury where I work.

Stay Safe,

Paul

[NWFDMedic 58]

Here would be my plan of attack for these situations (this is not my company policy, so assume that I'm operating in my own world):

1. As soon as you find out that you cannot gain entry through conventional means, request PD. Even if you have a Knox Box, the PD should be there as another "witness" that the residence was not altered in any way.

2. Attempt to confirm presence of a patient and establish dialogue either through dispatch or through the door. Check with neighbors, etc.

3. If the patient seems to be stable (ie. they can tell you they've fallen and cant get up), wait for either keyholder or a less invasive method of entry.

4. If you can confirm a patient and have either a confirmation (ie patient panting "I ... can't ... breathe. Help") that they are unstable or a reasonable suspicion of an unstable patient, take the door and ask questions later. Limit manpower to those needed to perform patient care.

5. Make sure the PD secures the residence.

6. Cover your behind, fully documenting the reason why you took the door, why there was no other option, and any abnormal conditions found in the residence.

I actually had this very situation happen to me last year. The patient communicated with her son and the life alert company complaining of repiratory distress. The keys in the (fake) Knox Box didn't fit the patient's door. The son arrived on the scene with us and concurred with taking the door (the FD did it, not me). As it turns out, I had a patient circling the proverbial drain after entry. We were able to stabilize the patient enroute to the hospital. The complex called and asked why the FD took the door, but after explaining the situation to my supervisor, it was taken care of and the proper keys were put into the box.

[Guest]

I quess I touched a nerve. Listen different regions view things differently thats how we operate and it works for us. Training days are great and very valuable but there is no substitute for the real thing and we seize these opportunities when possible. I quess if someone of my family were in the house and in need of help I wouldnt care what means the F.D. used to get in and care for my loved one, the damage done would be secondary. As far as ems & P.D. carrying tools my comment was more tounge and cheek than anything. But on a serious note if given the tools and on scene first at a fire I could see a door being forced prior to the FD's arrival which could lead to a number of problems. Also from a union standpoint its best to have specific agencies perform specific tasks you know job security and all. Or maybe we could provide ems with guns too, and between calls maybe they could collect the trash. One agency to handle all situations great idea! Yes we hand over these situations to the sector car if we cant secure the door ourselves but as far as returning to bed usually not a luxury where I work.

Stay Safe,

Paul

Guess again. You didn't touch a nerve I was just offering things from a different point of view yet you fail to see it. So basically what you're telling me is that if (God forbid) one of your loved ones was incapacitated and unable to reach the door, it would be ok for whatever agency that responded to take out a couple of windows, the door and door frame and breach a wall? All in the good spirit of "real world" training? Please PM me your address cause I could use some real world training as well. Point is that we could all use extra training but I'm not going to go about it by needlessly destroying other people's property.

As for doors being forced on fires prior to FD's arrival, I've yet to see that happen. If this is common occurrence where you work then it’s something you should address with your union as a safety issue.

In regards to "job security", I don't think that you're going to lose your job due to the fact that an EMS crew has the ability and training to gain entry in order to render care to a patient. We all know that there aren't as many fires as there used to be that FD tries to take on more responsibility but we're talking about the all too common "gain entry". Let EMS handle if they can, it will keep resources from being tied up in my opinion.

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

No I think you may be missing the point's. Im basically saying if a door is to be forced in a medical situation we opt to use the Irons in lieu of the hydra-ram. There was some debate as to what is less invasive. In my experience both do a considerable amount of damage but the use of the Irons provides an additional benefit to the members in gaining some experience. No one said anything about taking windows and breaching walls, the original discussion concerned forcing a door & as I stated earlier if there was a medical emergency at my home I could care less what technique was used to get in. Yes you have yet to see it happen because those agencies lack the tools and training to do so, but if equipped your telling me it would never happen. As far as fires being down and us looking to take on added responsibilities I beg to differ, our work load has remained consistent and fires are actually on the rise. By giving up even the all too common calls in an effort to keep resourses in service you basically are playing into the politicians hands and justifying their cries to make cuts accross the board. If you dont see issues such as these as job security issues in this climate than so be it, but response, routine, mundane or otherwise is what justifies any services existance.

[Guest]

No I think you may be missing the point's. Im basically saying if a door is to be forced in a medical situation we opt to use the Irons in lieu of the hydra-ram. There was some debate as to what is less invasive. In my experience both do a considerable amount of damage but the use of the Irons provides an additional benefit to the members in gaining some experience. No one said anything about taking windows and breaching walls, the original discussion concerned forcing a door & as I stated earlier if there was a medical emergency at my home I could care less what technique was used to get in. Yes you have yet to see it happen because those agencies lack the tools and training to do so, but if equipped your telling me it would never happen. As far as fires being down and us looking to take on added responsibilities I beg to differ, our work load has remained consistent and fires are actually on the rise. By giving up even the all too common calls in an effort to keep resourses in service you basically are playing into the politicians hands and justifying their cries to make cuts accross the board. If you dont see issues such as these as job security issues in this climate than so be it, but response, routine, mundane or otherwise is what justifies any services existance.

We have forcible entry tools (rabbits, halligans, rex tools, sledges, axes, k tools etc) as well as the training and we've yet to force doors in a fire situation. No one is looking to take your job away from you, just provide the quickest, least invasive access in order to provide patient care.

As for fires being on the rise, we could debate that topic all day long and and it would end up getting us no where. I just know how much you guys hate being OOS for BIs, training and education days. But I guess its ok to be OOS for a routine gain entry.

You can have em as far as I'm concerned.

Edited November 11, 2008 by Eagleshield

[Guest]

You guys are making much to do about nothing. "Persons down" and Lifeline alerts are a common thing. In Yonkers PD handles the majority of “gain entry” jobs, usually a sector car gets dispatched along with ESU. As long as the emergency is not life threatening, all means will be employed prior to forcing the door. If entry can't be made via adjoining fire escape/balcony, there are no relatives/neighbors with a key and super is not on scene, then a simple rabbit tool is used to gain entry or perhaps a portable ladder to an open window.

Now if the nature of the call specifies that someone is down and bleeding, unconscious or not breathing, the door is forced right away. Time isn’t wasted trying to find an alternate means in these situations.

You can almost ALWAYS bend the door frame back into place in such a way that it will "catch" the deadbolt if a rabbit tool was used. It’s always a good idea to try and resecure the door so that the sector car isn't stuck "babysitting" the apartment.

As far as checking or worrying if the patient is behind the door that is being forced. Not too big of an issue when using a rabbit or a hydra ram. I guess that would be more of an FD concern being that they use different means to gain entry.

I am still a little unclear how a rabbit tool will cause less damage than a properly set halligan?

[Guest]

And its not so much that I'm missing your point, its more that I just don't agree with needlessly destroying property. I perfectly understand the need for added training but not at the publics expense.

I am still a little unclear how a rabbit tool will cause less damage than a properly set halligan?

They're not always properly set. I've seen instances where it looked like a battering ram was used, hence the need for the added training I guess.

Edited November 11, 2008 by Eagleshield

[FFPCogs 863]

Someone's unresponsive and in need help. Force the door by whatever means is available. Advise dispatch that entry will be made and have the PD dispatched if their not there already.

I'd much rather explain to a resident or their family that I forced and damaged their door based on what info I had than explain why that loved one died because I didn't do it.

Cogs

[Guest]

And its not so much that I'm missing your point, its more that I just don't agree with needlessly destroying property. I perfectly understand the need for added training but not at the publics expense.

They're not always properly set. I've seen instances where it looked like a battering ram was used, hence the need for the added training I guess.

And with that you just validated Paul's point.

[mfkap 0]

I'm just curious.

It's 3AM in the morning, and you have a person down. You need to make forcible entry, so you request the FD.

Do you use caution or any method to make sure your victim is not behind the door you're trying to enter?

Now, do you also request the PD, and for what reasons? To witness the need to force entry, to secure the apartment afterwards?

You are technically breaking and entering under implied consent when using forcible entry. What role does PD play in this, and what liabilities does the FD have?

I encountered this exact situation about 3 years ago. A woman was on the phone with her sister, and the woman said she was not feeling well, and the phone dropped to the ground. The sister called the local PD and said that there was something wrong with the woman. So the PD gets there, no answer at the door. They call FD to force entry. I am on the entry team with the axe, took my first swing, and a light turns on inside. To paint the picture, we all were in a crammed hallway with a wall to the right and a staircase going up to the left, about 3 feet wide. It was 2 guys on the door, 3 people watching, the fire chief, and then the PO. When the door was opened by the guy with the baseball bat, there were 6 people between the guy with the bat and the PO, in gear and holding tools. If this guy was a little drunker, or a little higher, or had a shotgun, you would have heard this story on the news instead of EMTBravo.

Still to this day remember it as one of the stupidest situations I ever put myself in as a FF. We have no idea why the guy didn't answer the door for the 20 minutes of knocking, talking, banging, before we used the tools. And the woman was an EDP who got mad at her sister or something. But if you ever do this, can I suggest a different order: 2 guys on the door, POLICE OFFICER, and then the peanut gallery. After that situation I sure as heck wouldn't try to do it without a PO on scene to clear up any "misunderstandings."

[ny10570 745]

I deal with these on a regular basis. First, if I have what appears to be an actual life threat (didn't come from a pay phone, call back is valid, etc) I'm not waiting for anyone to open the door. I've kicked in a wooden frame on a private house to find they left by taxi. Oops, should have answered when 911 called back. Once we were the second crew to force the door that day found the note the first crew left. Another time it was a chronic harassment issue where skells were calling to have a deaf woman's door kicked in. She learned and posted a message to us on her door to go to her neighbor for a key. I've had fire force plenty of doors and only twice has there been an actual medical emergency. Those calls made it absolutely worth while. Figure $200 per door 50 doors over 2 actual patients is 5k per patient. How many lives would the new Yonkers USAR truck have to save before it is that cost effective?

As for how do you enter, the fastest and loudest way possible. If the pt is right in front of the door no matter how hard it pops open you aren't going to do much more then cause a bruise, maybe you catch their hand just right to break a finger. Still better than the alternative if they're so bad off they're unconscious in front of the door. I've read and heard of too many cases were guys have been nearly killed trying to find the less damaging way in. There's always a risk but banging down the front door is always better. How would mfkap's story ended had it been a ff coming through the window rather than a half dozen guys in the hall? I've also seen the hydra ram (ESU's preferred tool) do as much damage as the irons (Fire's choice). Also keep in mind its cheaper to replace a door then an entire door frame.

[Guest]

And with that you just validated Paul's point.

Read the first part of my post in whcih I stated that I can understand Paul's point, I just don't agree with the notion of causing uneeded damage for the sake of "training".

[notch138 7]

**************, I don't think its so much of a rabbit tool doing less damage the a set of irons. I feel that with the rabbit tool you have more control over the door and how fast it swings with a set of irons it takes 2 people, and with Vol fire depts having less manpower and the "I'm not getting out of bed for that" factor you have to use whats you think will be best, with the rabbit tool yes it takes two people, one to use the tool and one to wack it, however what we have done before if once the rabbit tool is set in place, the person who was wacking the tool can now use a small rope to go around the knob or handle of the door and gain control from the door swinging wide open and either A) slam the door into you PT slam the door in a table of something and end up knocking what ever was on the table over and making a mess.

[RWC130 594]

Good Topic!

Person Down at 3 AM

If I can speak with the patient, i.e. fall out of bed, lift assist, or non-serious injury

I might wait a couple minutes for the Police so they can witness my entry

and later secure the location.

I would also check for another way in such as a unlocked or open Window.

Perhaps ask them if a neighbor has a key or if they have a key hidden someplace.

If I cannot speak with the patient, I will have to assume they might be unconscious,

unresponsive, or in cardiac arrest. I would not waste any time and force entry immediately.

Door or Window using whatever Tools I have available.

Obviously, If we can do the least amount of damage I am all for it and will take time to

attempt such but if no answer at the door with no verbal contact..... BUSTIN' IN!

Worry about it later.

Did you ever watch the episode of COPS where the Police Officer thought the House was

on Fire and started busting out all the windows? He was trying to alert the occupants inside

the house it was on fire. Unfortunately, he was at the wrong house. lol

The house behind him was on fire but all the smoke was pushing his way.

As funny as it is to watch I feel that the Police Officer acted in a "Reasonable Manner"

given the circumstances. You don't always have to be RIGHT, You have to be REASONABLE!

Now, with that being said. You bust in a door at 3 AM only to find that no one is home and

Fluffy the cat sitting on the HELP button of the "I've fallen and I can't get up box" Whoops!

Having forced entry a few times that's my TWO cents!

PS Fluffy RMA'd!

[NWFDMedic 58]

**************, I don't think its so much of a rabbit tool doing less damage the a set of irons. I feel that with the rabbit tool you have more control over the door and how fast it swings with a set of irons it takes 2 people, and with Vol fire depts having less manpower and the "I'm not getting out of bed for that" factor you have to use whats you think will be best, with the rabbit tool yes it takes two people, one to use the tool and one to wack it, however what we have done before if once the rabbit tool is set in place, the person who was wacking the tool can now use a small rope to go around the knob or handle of the door and gain control from the door swinging wide open and either A) slam the door into you PT slam the door in a table of something and end up knocking what ever was on the table over and making a mess.

Your foot worked just fine Tommy.