Forcible Entry: Do You Call For PD?

[antiquefirelt 994]

how about the lockbox keys, then thru the lock, hydro-ram (rabitt tool), then conventional f/e. With that much info, you cant leave without entering, and yes PD should be notified to secure the premisis, and no it isnt the fd's job to replace the door, ALTHOUGH it is good customer relations if you can TRY to resecure the door prior to leaving .

and I hope we stopped "bashing in doors" when the situation didnt warrant it. In my opinion, thats what professional means.

Bingo! We do plenty of these runs and we gain entry by the quickest and least damaging means. You still need to use the best tool on the job "Your Noggin!" Each dispatch needs to be evaluated for the level of concern for the patient. As someone noted, we never leave until the address is checked or the patient is found. Our ambulances do carry a set of irons, so most of the time their in quick. An engine will respond to assist or make "repairs". Though they're usually on the run anyway as they get sent on all unconscious patient runs. Our policy is to always call PD, but we don't wait for them to arrive unless the situation calls for it? (this might be sketchy). Also, as previously said, most well being checks start with PD, so their there already. We've yet to have anyone complain about the damage caused, though we do try and do everything we can to limit damage and restore functionality.

Edited November 11, 2008 by antiquefirelt

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

In my opinion the hydra-ram or rabbit tool is relied on heavily by people who lack training, technique, and experience in using the Irons. For us as an agency the Irons has proved very reliable & our members have become very proficient in there use. I am not going to turn this into a forcible entry lesson but there are many instances when the hydra ram in inefficient and not recomended for entry. Ex. wood door in wood frame, door with angle iron etc etc. As far as controlling the door that can be done with a rope or webbing just as with the hydra ram. I agree with the notion of going conventional making plenty of noise with the tools as you enter, damage is damage and in a real emergency its not going to matter to those in need. The idea of thru- the lock or coming off a fire escape or ladder through a window puts us in unneeded danger but I quess we could use a flash grenade as we enter that has worked in the past right, or maybe we can arm the emt's with stun guns so they can subdue any potenial threats.

[Bnechis 3,961]

The majority of our requests are do to "lifeline alerts". Most in Sr. Citizen High Rise buildings that have a master key in the knox box. We have found it very common that the resident has changed the look in violation of the lease. The building maintenance repair/replace the door and the building bills the resident if they changed the lock. We bang on the door, if no response we end up entering and searching (person maybe uncons.) Often we find no one home, often already in the hospital or even already buried.

In addition to getting PD there to secure the scene and as a witness to our actions, they maybe needed for other risks.

About 10 years ago, My engine was dispatched to an apartment for a CVA. The call was from the patients wife who was at work in White Plains, Dispatch advised that she was on the phone with him when his speech slured and he dropped the phone, her ETA with the key was 25 minutes. Upon arrival we found a looked 5th fl apt. with no ladder access. The nieghbor said he had at least 1 CVA recently, and after banging on the door we got no response. My nozzleman picked both locks (he's a licensed locksmith), 1 cop, 1 medic, 1 EMT, 1 FF and myself searched the apt and found no one. The Bathroom had a 2 way key deadbolt and was locked (did not think it was an issue at that moment, turns out it was set up as a safe room). We started out of the apt., when the patient came out of the bathroom and pointed a 38 at me and said "What are you doing in my apartment"? Note. his speach was slurred.

I yelled "Gun" then advised him we were leaving. As we cleared the apt. the sector cop was yelling at him to drop his weapon. he yelled back he was a member of NRPD. As we cleared the door, the officer asked for his name and when given it, the officer said he had never heard of him on the NRPD. He said he was retired. Another round of drop the gun, and the sector officer and myself also telling dispatch what was happening. PD dispatch advised the sector to not let him out of the apt. and he was extremly dangerous. This turned into a barricaded suspect that the tactical team had to remove.

Turned out this was a past CVA patient, who was having an additional medical issue. The pt. was also a former (not retired) cop, who was fired for improper actions including an assult(s).

You never know what will be on the other side of the door. It was nice to have someone on our side with a gun, next time I want him up front, not in the back.

[JCESU 20]

1) have PD on scene in case neighbors hear (and not see) the entry and call it in as a B&T in progress (or at least notify them of the circumstances.)

2) Allows the PD to document the call and memorialize any previous damage or damge that has been caused. This way you don't get blamed for more than you actually had to do to gain entry. Some departments will even send their BCI out to take pictures to document same.

3) It allows the location to be placed into the PD's CAD system for future reference. Or perhaps their CAD system may already have notes in it that can be beneficial to you i.e. nighbor in apt-6 has a key to the premises etc.

4) The worst case scenario=you are doing a forced entry on the wrong apartment/house, resident in a dead sleep etc. or any other circumstances where the resident is not expecting someone to be entering their residence and they have access to a weapon or they have a large dog in their apt. that hasn't eaten in a week. Having PD on scene will help mitigate most problems and provide for a safer environment.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

This is more an agency specific topic on how it gets handled. In the scenario they had contact she went down and no contact, door gets opened with a hydra ram. This isn't a time for gaining experience, this is a time for entry. Experience time comes on simulators and odor calls, particularly for repeat offenders. I'm getting PD enroute being I am forcing the door, if no family or the super isn't there. Discretion does come into play but within the means of the information available.

As far as cops and EMS having forcible entry tools, I will dignify that with a response. I'm a huge advocate for having some form of tools on buses. Particularly hydra rams. Sometimes time does matter and depending on where you are, you may have to wait a significant amount of time to get an apparatus on the road to gain entry. This isn't rocket science and I do believe its about customer service and not interagency bullshit. Get the additional resource on the road in the event you have a problem or a substantial entry job and use your available tools, you get in cancel them. You don't coordinate with them.

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

And when the seal in the ram fails which happens quite often, or the door is set in a wood frame, or there is an angle iron, then what.

[x635 4,066]

As far as the PD goes, they're often the first unit to arrive on scene, since they're mostly always on the road.

PD, FD, and EMS are allies. As far as PD parking in front of hydrants, not all cops do. If it's a problem in your municipality, do something about it. Talk to the PD, maybe the officers don't even realize it in the heat of the moment.

If PD can knock down a small fire with a extinguisher rather then wait 5 minutes for an engine company, and therefore save property, what's the problem? Provide Fire Extinguisher classes to the PD so they know what they can and can't handle safely. Better yet, a PD/FD interface course so we can learn from each other.

If PD can use an AED to for a shockable rythm instead of waiting for EMS, shouldn't they go ahead and do that?

What I'm getting at here is TIME. It is crucial, especially in rural areas and daytime where manpower in some departments is scarce. Instead of beating our chests, we should be looking at ways we can all work together to "stop the clock".

[gamewell45 258]

I'm just curious.

It's 3AM in the morning, and you have a person down. You need to make forcible entry, so you request the FD.

Do you use caution or any method to make sure your victim is not behind the door you're trying to enter?

Now, do you also request the PD, and for what reasons? To witness the need to force entry, to secure the apartment afterwards?

You are technically breaking and entering under implied consent when using forcible entry. What role does PD play in this, and what liabilities does the FD have?

If your department has fire-police, there's no need to call for uniformed police unless you percieve a possible threat to EMS or firefighters. Aside from directing traffic, fire-police--who are sworn peace officers--can be used to prevent looting and can secure all non-criminal sites/locations.

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Als just a few points to ponder, in most juristictions an ems call with generate an F.D. response automatically, certainly if the call is of a serious nature, so the F.D. will already be enroute. In my experience the F.D. is usually first on scene and is waiting for the bus the majority of the time. In addition to the jump bag, the O2 the defib & ekg monitor and the stairchair/stretcher Im curious if most ems workers are going to want to carry an additional 15-20lbs tool up 6 flights of stairs. Just basing this on the people I respond with I highly doubt it. I dont consider this interagency B.S. its about using your resources as they have been designed to be used. Lastly, its becoming a widespread misnomer throughout the fire service that the hydra-ram is the best most efficent way to force a door. I can tell you from experience that the Irons are the quickest an most reliable means of entry period. Unfortunately many peoples skills with these tools have diminished over the years because they have become so reliant on the ram, and it almost seems as if they are intimidated by the irons. Where I work we treat every response as an opportunity to learn something and hone our skills while gaining valuable realworld experience. It works for us and makes us better prepared at no expense to the people we continue to serve.

[Guest]

As far as the Rabbit Vs "Irons" debate and why one is preferred over the other. You've got to be kidding me with your assertion right? Please tell me that you jest. The simple notion that agencies who use the Rabbit as opposed to a Halligan shows your arrogance and contempt for anything not FD. Setting a Halligan and swinging an axe isn't exactly rocket science. Neither is going thru the lock with a Rex tool or something similar. You can teach a drunken Baboon how to breach a door using any of the aforementioned methods so please spare me the “It’s a highly honed form of art” line.

The reason that we opt for the Rabbit tool/Hydra Ram on medicals is ease of portability when also carrying a medical bag and an AED. It’s easier to use and not as noisy. Also in my opinion and from what I’ve seen it does tend to cause less damage. If the tool were to fail, we can transition to a Halligan and a sledge or whatever. Using Paul’s train of thought I could say that those that primarily use the “Irons” are intimidated by the Rabbit or lack the training and experience to actually know how to use it.

But hey, whatever, this is coming from a guy that will intentionally cause unnecessary damage or take extra time on a gain entry just for the sake of “real world” training. The same guy that would have EMS standby and wait (while a patient is down) for FD’s response to take the door just because he’s worried about his job security.

SDTKAB, it isn’t all about you.

[Truck4 48]

Keep it civil and on-topic or the thread vanishes.

[abaduck 123]

In my opinion the hydra-ram or rabbit tool is relied on heavily by people who lack training, technique, and experience in using the Irons. For us as an agency the Irons has proved very reliable & our members have become very proficient in there use. I am not going to turn this into a forcible entry lesson but there are many instances when the hydra ram in inefficient and not recomended for entry. Ex. wood door in wood frame, door with angle iron etc etc.

That's a good point; I've seen a great FDNY forcible entry training video dealing with angle irons, and how to work with them not against them, using conventional FE.

Do you really think there's a big problem with too much reliance on the rabbit? The last FE jobs I've been involved in have been, I think, something like 50% conventional, 50% thru-the-lock; I can't even remember the last time we took the rabbit off the truck.

(that's not a point of principle BTW, of course there are places where the rabbit would be the first choice, I just haven't come up against one recently!)

Mike

[Guest TOYBUFF911]

Explosive Breaching is the answer.............

[Guest alsfirefighter]

And when the seal in the ram fails which happens quite often, or the door is set in a wood frame, or there is an angle iron, then what.

Hmmmm...I don't know...scratch my head with the pick end of the halligan that's leaning against the wall next to the door until I figure out what to do or how to remember to use my irons...lol

Fact is for me the majority of the doors in my projects and senior citizens complexes don't have angle iron, several of our private duplexes do, so it is more efficient to just use the hydra ram, which by the way we exercise as specified so the seal is less likely to blow out. The same reason why we use the ram at a high percentage based on the size up of the door, is the same reason the tac team I'm on uses the hydra ram...its quiet and fast. I also have no quarms with going conventional as I am quite skilled and efficient with it, but I also won't sit here and denounce one versus the other pariticularly when in most of my experiences the ram has proven a bit faster. A few taps, a few pumps door generally opens. I don't have to shock, gap, set, force, etc. We don't send BLSFR on every job, so in many cases the bus is on scene or the medic with the flycar, so they can walk their rears I don't care how many flights if they have the resource..what else is there to do while awaiting the engine or truck to arrive for FE? I feel bad for you if you have to work with crews like that, I have been there and it does suck.

The one thing I have to totally agree on with you Paul is the fact that forcible entry skills are diminishing, but I find this to be attributed to an overall decline in the type and quality of fire service training. The basics are being thrown out the window for feel good stuff..FAST, extrication and so on. Even though progressive fire service trainers and managers know that they all truly revolve around the basics. There are high quality forcible entry simulators out there to practice conventional forcible entry on, whether its reusable or the simulators like we have at the Westchester FTC which we hang real steel doors. Its not always like the real thing but its a great option compared to just talking about it.

[Guest TOYBUFF911]

This isn't brain surgery, but it takes some experience, practice and creativity to become proficient.

Myself and partner will bring the rabbit tool bag w/k-tool, halogen, sledge or 8lb axe, medical trauma bag and an AED. Our CAD system notifies us of keyholders and dispatch get information and family members with keys ETA for us so we can make a good informed decision upon arrival. Experienced officers know where to locate supers and keyholders, because most locations are repeat calls. Also carried is a shove knife, piece of plastic to slide behind a lock and in the rabbit bag a small bolt cutter for chain locks as well as a few wedges. EMS stands by until we clear the apartment and if determined not needed they are canceled to keep liability on those who entered the premise. JCESU was right with caution on dogs and also crime scenes or a potential suspect inside.

Good luck stay safe.

Below is a link that everyone can learn a few things from.

http://www.firefactory.com/FE.pdf

[Piranha174 37]

If your department has fire-police, there's no need to call for uniformed police unless you percieve a possible threat to EMS or firefighters. Aside from directing traffic, fire-police--who are sworn peace officers--can be used to prevent looting and can secure all non-criminal sites/locations.

How is there not a need for the Police to be at scene. In some of your responses to a recent thread you indicated that you did not believe that CFR training should be required for a VFD. You further stated that "they may have no stomach for blood and guts" and on occasion you would advise an aided "medical assistance is on the way." Well, the Police Officer that there's no need to call may be the only on scene with medical training. The one thing to remember is that if you go through the door you must be prepared to deal with what you find.

I can't think of a PD that would not be dispatched to call like the one specified. And yes if ESU is not available the FD would be requsted to gain entry. The fire police in my opinion is a bad example and in no way can they take the place of the Police.

Just out of curiosity who are the fire police preventing from looting?

[helicopper 1,050]

If your department has fire-police, there's no need to call for uniformed police unless you percieve a possible threat to EMS or firefighters. Aside from directing traffic, fire-police--who are sworn peace officers--can be used to prevent looting and can secure all non-criminal sites/locations.

Yes, they are unarmed peace officers. They are not police officers, nor are they present to perform primary law enforcement functions such as protecting other first responders, intervening in law enforcement matters, or securing a premise at the conclusion of fire/EMS operations.

There are a multitude of reasons to call the PD in addition to the "possible threat to EMS or FD".

What training does the fire police have in preventing looting? Come on, are you really suggesting that you wouldn't want the PD to respond to a scene where an allied emergency service forced entry into/onto private property?

NYS Criminal Procedure Law Article 2.10 regarding fire police "squads":

41. Fire police squads organized pursuant to section two hundred

nine-c of the general municipal law, at such times as the fire

department, fire company or an emergency rescue and first aid squad of

the fire department or fire company are on duty, or when, on orders of

the chief of the fire department or fire company of which they are

members, they are separately engaged in response to a call for

assistance pursuant to the provisions of section two hundred nine of the

general municipal law; provided, however, that nothing in this

subdivision shall be deemed to authorize such officer to carry, possess,

repair or dispose of a firearm unless the appropriate license therefor

has been issued pursuant to section 400.00 of the penal law.

Training requirements for fire police as peace officers: NYS Criminal Procedure Law

§ 2.30 Training requirements for peace officers.

1. Every peace officer in the state of New York, appointed after the

effective date of this article, who works a full complement of hours

which constitutes full-time employment for the officer's employer, must

successfully complete a training program, a portion of which shall be

prescribed by the municipal police training council and by his employer,

the state or local agency, unit of local government, state or local

commission, or public authority or private organization that employs

him. The portion prescribed by the municipal police training council

shall be comprised of subjects, and the hours each is to be taught, that

shall be required of all types or classes of peace officers. The hours

of instruction required by the municipal police training council shall

not exceed thirty-five, unless a greater amount is either required by

law or regulation, or is requested by the employer.

The segment prescribed by the employer for his employees shall be

comprised of subjects, and the hours each is to be taught, relating to

the special nature of the duties of the peace officers employed by him.

Each state or local agency, unit of local government, state or local

commission, or public authority, or public or private organization which

employs peace officers shall provide the training mandated by this

section, and transmit to the municipal police training council within

six months after the effective date of this article the proposed

training program for peace officers, comprised of subjects required by

the employer, the cost of which will be borne by the employer. The

program shall:

(a) List the subjects comprising the proposed curriculum and the

number of hours each is to be taught;

( b ) List the proposed instructors for each subject with their

qualifications; and

© Indicate the proposed location of the school.

In the reviewing of the employer's submission, the instructors must be

found qualified by background and experience, and if so found, the

course shall be certified by the municipal police training council. When

the subjects prescribed by the employer are identical to the subjects in

the training program required by the municipal police training council,

the officer shall not be required to take duplicate training for those

subjects. It is the responsibility of every employer to provide the

training program certified by the municipal police training council.

Each peace officer satisfactorily completing the course shall be awarded

a certificate by the division of criminal justice services attesting to

that effect, and no person appointed as a peace officer after the

effective date of this article shall exercise the powers of a peace

officer, unless he has received such certification within twelve months

of appointment. Where an employer has authorized a peace officer to

carry or use a weapon during any phase of the officer's official duties,

which constitutes on-duty employment, the program shall include the same

number of hours of instruction in deadly physical force and the use of

firearms and other weapons as is required in the basic training program

for police officers by the municipal police training council. The

program shall include the information set forth in subdivision seven of

section 265.10 of the penal law. No employer shall allow any peace

officer, notwithstanding when the officer was appointed, to carry or use

a weapon during any phase of the officer's official duties, which

constitutes on-duty employment, unless the officer has satisfactorily

completed a course of training approved by the municipal police training

council in the use of deadly physical force and firearms and other

weapons, and annually receives instruction in deadly physical force and

the use of firearms and other weapons as approved by the municipal

police training council. The course of training in the use of deadly

physical force and firearms and other weapons shall be provided by the

officer's employer, not later than six months from the date on which the

officer was appointed, where the officer is authorized to carry a weapon

pursuant to law.

2. Upon the failure or refusal to comply with the requirements of

subdivision one of this section, the commissioner of the division of

criminal justice services shall apply to the supreme court for an order

directed to the person responsible requiring compliance. Upon such

application, the court may issue such order as may be just, and a

failure to comply with the order of the court shall be a contempt of

court and punishable as such.

3. Any individual who is a peace officer or a New York city special

patrolman on the effective date of this article and has previously taken

a formalized course of training while a peace officer or a New York city

special patrolman, may apply, in writing, to the municipal police

training council for certification. The application shall be granted or

denied for reasons specifically and concisely stated in writing, and if

granted, the exact extent of any waiver of the training then presently

required for new appointees shall be set forth. The certification shall

be granted only if the municipal police training council determines that

the course of training previously taken by the applicant is in

substantial compliance with the training then presently required for new

appointees.

When an application is denied, it is the responsibility of the officer

to obtain the training that is required in order to obtain

certification. When a peace officer meets the training requirements

specified herein, the division of criminal justice services shall issue

that person a certificate attesting to the fact that he has

satisfactorily completed the required training.

4. Any peace officer appointed after the effective date of this

article who normally works on a part-time basis for less than the full

complement of hours which would constitute full-time employment for

their position as determined by their employer, shall receive training

which may, in whole or in part, be in-service training. The portion of

the training program required by the municipal police training council

shall not exceed ten hours of instruction. The segment of the training

program prescribed by the employer shall be comprised of subjects, and

the hours each is to be taught, relating to the special nature of the

duties of the peace officers employed by him. Every employer who employs

part-time peace officers shall transmit to the municipal police training

council within six months after the effective date of this article the

proposed training program for its officers, in accordance with the

procedure and requirements set forth in subdivision one of this section.

Each peace officer satisfactorily completing the training requirements

shall be issued a certificate by the division of criminal justice

services attesting to that effect.

5. Every employer of peace officers shall annually report to the

municipal police training council, in such form and at such time as the

council may by regulation require, the names and addresses of all peace

officers who have, during the course of the year, satisfactorily

completed any of the training requirements prescribed by this section.

6. A certificate attesting to satisfactory completion of the training

requirements imposed under this section awarded to any peace officer by

the executive director of the municipal police training council pursuant

to this section shall remain valid:

(a) during the holder's continuous service as a peace officer; and

( b ) for two years after the date of the commencement of an

interruption in such service where the holder had, immediately prior to

such interruption, served as a peace officer for less than two

consecutive years; or

© for four years after the date of the commencement of an

interruption in such service where the holder had, immediately prior to

such interruption, served as a peace officer for two consecutive years

or longer.

As used in this subdivision, the term "interruption" shall mean a

period of separation from employment as a peace officer by reason of

such officer's leave of absence, resignation or removal, other than

removal for cause.

NYS General Municipal Law 209-C:

§ 209-c. Fire police squads of fire departments and fire companies.

The authorities having control of fire departments and fire companies

may organize within such departments or companies fire police squads

composed of volunteer firemen who are members of such departments or

companies. Members of fire police squads, so organized, at such times as

the fire department, fire company or an emergency rescue and first aid

squad of the fire department or fire company are on duty, or when, on

orders of the chief of the fire department or fire company of which they

are members, they are separately engaged in response to a call for

assistance pursuant to the provisions of section two hundred nine of the

general municipal law, shall have the powers of and render service as

peace officers. A member of a fire police squad shall take an oath of

office as a fire policeman in the following form: "I do solemnly swear

(or affirm) that I will support the constitution of the United States,

and the constitution of the State of New York, and that I will

faithfully discharge the duties of the office of fire policeman of the

...................... fire company (or fire department), according to

the best of my ability. " Such oath shall be filed in the office of the

city clerk in the case of a fireman of a fire company or fire department

in a city, in the office of the village clerk in the case of a fireman

of a fire company or fire department in a village, and in the office of

the town clerk in all other cases. Notwithstanding any other provision

of law to the contrary, a member of a fire police squad shall have

satisfied any requirement for training as provided by any general or

local law if the person has satisfactorily completed a training course

offered by the state office of fire prevention and control, or an

equivalent course as approved by the state office of fire prevention and

control.

I can't find any mention of anti-looting training or equipment for the prevention of looting?

[helicopper 1,050]

From the OFPC training catalog:

Fire Police

Trains fire police to perform their duties more effectively. It includes defining and interpreting terms, oath of office, relation to

regular police officers, general duties, maintaining safe conditions at an emergency, traffic direction and control, pre-planning,

and various laws of interest to the fire service. Under the provision of General Municipal Law, Section 209-c, this course,

when approved by OFPC, must be completed by every fire police officer who was appointed after September 1, 1980.

Designed for: Fire service personnel designated as fire police

Course Length: 9 hours

Course number : 01-15-0002

Course Location(s): Locally via Outreach

Shouldn't be construed as a replacement for real police officers or as an alternative to calling them!

[Guest]

As far as the Rabbit Vs "Irons" debate and why one is preferred over the other. You've got to be kidding me with your assertion right? Please tell me that you jest. The simple notion that agencies who use the Rabbit as opposed to a Halligan shows your arrogance and contempt for anything not FD. Setting a Halligan and swinging an axe isn't exactly rocket science. Neither is going thru the lock with a Rex tool or something similar. You can teach a drunken Baboon how to breach a door using any of the aforementioned methods so please spare me the “It’s a highly honed form of art” line.

The reason that we opt for the Rabbit tool/Hydra Ram on medicals is ease of portability when also carrying a medical bag and an AED. It’s easier to use and not as noisy. Also in my opinion and from what I’ve seen it does tend to cause less damage. If the tool were to fail, we can transition to a Halligan and a sledge or whatever. Using Paul’s train of thought I could say that those that primarily use the “Irons” are intimidated by the Rabbit or lack the training and experience to actually know how to use it.

But hey, whatever, this is coming from a guy that will intentionally cause unnecessary damage or take extra time on a gain entry just for the sake of “real world” training. The same guy that would have EMS standby and wait (while a patient is down) for FD’s response to take the door just because he’s worried about his job security.

SDTKAB, it isn’t all about you.

What does "SDTKAB" mean?

So Eagle, I am reading your comments but pondering a few things that don't make sense to me.

First, you say that you prefer the hydraram because of ease of portability when also carrying a medical bag and AED. This is reasonable, and plausible. But then you go on to say if the tool were to fail, you can transition to the halligan and sledge... so now you have to walk back down six flights of stairs, get your halligan and sledge, walk back up six flights of stairs, and THEN start forcing the door? I have to assume down on the street is where those tools were left, because you just got done saying the hydraram is more portable.

Next, you assert once again that the hydraram will cause less damage than the irons. But, in a previous post you said you have seen doors conventionally forced with irons that looked like someone used a battering ram. And then did admit that maybe the halligan might not have been set properly. It is pretty simple to understand that if the tool is not set properly then your drunken baboon is going to have to beat the living crap out of the door to get it opened.

The concept of setting the tool properly is not a hard one to understand. There is no need for "forcible entry kung-fu", as I once heard a very knowledgeable man say. Using the irons does require some skill and regular practice to hone these skills. And I think the point that Paul is trying to make is that if you are using the hydraram all the time you are not practicing your conventional forcible entry skills. And then what happens is when you cannot use the hydraram because of circumstance, or a failure of the tool, now you must use these rusty skills and will most likely have to pummel the door like a drunken baboon because you are out of practice. Or, never got the training to be proficient in the first place.

Take care now,

Pat

[Guest]

PD goes with us and EMS

[JCESU 20]

In 99.99% of forced entries, ESU/PD is requested for forced entries by EMS. The only exception is when there happens to be out-of-town newbies (EMS) that aren't aware of their resources-this is usually corrected immediately. Trying to to think objectively I would like to think that if I were EMS or fd I would prefer to have the PD on scene for multiple common sense reasons. EMS cannot/will not do a forced entry here. Like everything else in the emergency services world expertise comes with time in that you should be able to size up and get a mental picture of the job before you arrive. Standard on every forced entry we go on: Medical Bag/AED, Rabbit tool, Halligan/Sledge, Dewalt-sawzall kit, bolt cutters and tool bag. If all you have in your tool bag is a hammer...then every problem becomes a nail. We average at least one forced entry a night-more often multiple. We do these so often my partner and I have developed a tool over time to dis-engage door security chains without cutting them. My work I.D. has been instrumental in gaining access to more doors than I can count. Patient medical status MUST be tempered with our security-that being physically and civilly. If your good at what you do then you should be able to gain access doing minimal damage in the shortest amount of time-not sure what happens in other jurisdictions but we secure and/or restore the property to the best of our ability. Depending on the circumstances a fixed post by PD will be made until the property can be secured or turned over to a family member. However, if you broke it you fix it-meaning that if the FD does the forced entry don't expect ESU to come secure it-and yes it becomes the FD's responsibility to secure the property-by whatever means possible. Many times the door isn't the best way to gain entry i.e. windows etc., but, again, this comes with experience.

Often the people that set policies for this type of call are far removed from the actual scene and have been for a long time. Therefore it’s up to us change the system from within. That being, when possible, after the call take a moment to exchange information with the other agencies (EMS/fd), take a look around the apartment to see if a family member contact number is on the fridge and take the time to call them and ask if they can store a key with a neighbor etc. I don't see any of this as inter-agency BS, but, rather, building cohesiveness and opening dialogue. We have an awesome relationship with EMS down here and it’s all about interacting and not being territorial.

Stay Safe...

[gamewell45 258]

How is there not a need for the Police to be at scene. In some of your responses to a recent thread you indicated that you did not believe that CFR training should be required for a VFD. You further stated that "they may have no stomach for blood and guts" and on occasion you would advise an aided "medical assistance is on the way." Well, the Police Officer that there's no need to call may be the only on scene with medical training. The one thing to remember is that if you go through the door you must be prepared to deal with what you find.

I can't think of a PD that would not be dispatched to call like the one specified. And yes if ESU is not available the FD would be requsted to gain entry. The fire police in my opinion is a bad example and in no way can they take the place of the Police.

Just out of curiosity who are the fire police preventing from looting?

Using your analogy, someone calling 911 for medical assistance for a sprained ankle would require a police dispatch; thus tying up a police unit over over a minor medical call..certainly no CPR will likely be needed. Furthermore, if its an EMS call, the paramedics/EMT's will be dispatched. For those of us who live in rural areas, you might wait for a police agency to respond in (not every town outside of urban of suburban areas can afford local police and thus the state or county police agency responds in) up to 20-25 minutes. To have police respond in under your analogy is not only unnecessary, its ludicrious and a waste of manpower, especially if another legitimate call comes in.

And contrary to what you posted; while some VFD members might not have the stomach for EMS related activities, i think you'll find that overall a vast majority of volunteer FD members do in fact have the stomach for it, infact in my department a majority of our members have at least minimal training (CPR, CFR,EMT). There's just a very small handfull who don't have nor desire to have any EMS training.

As far as your question as to whom the fire-police prevent from looting, generally its anyone who has no business being in the house, unless they are family members.

[gamewell45 258]

Yes, they are unarmed peace officers. They are not police officers, nor are they present to perform primary law enforcement functions such as protecting other first responders, intervening in law enforcement matters, or securing a premise at the conclusion of fire/EMS operations.

There are a multitude of reasons to call the PD in addition to the "possible threat to EMS or FD".

What training does the fire police have in preventing looting? Come on, are you really suggesting that you wouldn't want the PD to respond to a scene where an allied emergency service forced entry into/onto private property?

Chris I agree with you on part of your post; in that fire-police are not replacements for police officers. But thats where it ends. Depending on how each department utilizes their fire-police units;aside from directing traffic, fire-police do assist with crowd control, keeping the fire ground safe for the firefighters, and contrary to what some in here say, they do prevent looting by keeping unauthorized people from entering structures/property; in addition to whatever lawful orders are given by the chief or IC.

Additionally, aside from the basic fire police course, many fire police take additional training in justifible use of force, baton training and so forth.

Furthermore I don't believe that police presence is necessary on every single forced entry into/onto property either; it should be left up to the incident commander to decide if he needs uniformed presence on location or if fire-police will be adequate. The police are already busy enough and understaffed as it is; if they are tied up at a fire/EMS scene where they are truly not needed, someone in distress who needs them more then we do will possibly be at further unnecessary risk.

Edited November 12, 2008 by gamewell45

[Piranha174 37]

Using your analogy, someone calling 911 for medical assistance for a sprained ankle would require a police dispatch; thus tying up a police unit over over a minor medical call..certainly no CPR will likely be needed. Furthermore, if its an EMS call, the paramedics/EMT's will be dispatched. For those of us who live in rural areas, you might wait for a police agency to respond in (not every town outside of urban of suburban areas can afford local police and thus the state or county police agency responds in) up to 20-25 minutes. To have police respond in under your analogy is not only unnecessary, its ludicrious and a waste of manpower, especially if another legitimate call comes in.

And contrary to what you posted; while some VFD members might not have the stomach for EMS related activities, i think you'll find that overall a vast majority of volunteer FD members do in fact have the stomach for it, infact in my department a majority of our members have at least minimal training (CPR, CFR,EMT). There's just a very small handfull who don't have nor desire to have any EMS training.

As far as your question as to whom the fire-police prevent from looting, generally its anyone who has no business being in the house, unless they are family members.

Not using my analogy using the senario that was given. It's 3AM a person is down and forcible entry needs to be made. Even in the most rural of areas the Police would be dispatched to this type of job. There could be alot of "what if's" given the limited information provided in the scenario. What's ludicrious is the statement made by you in which you indicated the fire police could essentially take the place of real Police Officers.

And it's not contrary to what I posted, it's what you posted regarding CFR training. It was direct quotes taken from your posts.

[gamewell45 258]

Not using my analogy using the senario that was given. It's 3AM a person is down and forcible entry needs to be made. Even in the most rural of areas the Police would be dispatched to this type of job. There could be alot of "what if's" given the limited information provided in the scenario. What's ludicrious is the statement made by you in which you indicated the fire police could essentially take the place of real Police Officers.

And it's not contrary to what I posted, it's what you posted regarding CFR training. It was direct quotes taken from your posts.

Guess we agree to disagree.

[Guest]

What does "SDTKAB" mean?

So Eagle, I am reading your comments but pondering a few things that don't make sense to me.

First, you say that you prefer the hydraram because of ease of portability when also carrying a medical bag and AED. This is reasonable, and plausible. But then you go on to say if the tool were to fail, you can transition to the halligan and sledge... so now you have to walk back down six flights of stairs, get your halligan and sledge, walk back up six flights of stairs, and THEN start forcing the door? I have to assume down on the street is where those tools were left, because you just got done saying the hydraram is more portable.

Next, you assert once again that the hydraram will cause less damage than the irons. But, in a previous post you said you have seen doors conventionally forced with irons that looked like someone used a battering ram. And then did admit that maybe the halligan might not have been set properly. It is pretty simple to understand that if the tool is not set properly then your drunken baboon is going to have to beat the living crap out of the door to get it opened.

The concept of setting the tool properly is not a hard one to understand. There is no need for "forcible entry kung-fu", as I once heard a very knowledgeable man say. Using the irons does require some skill and regular practice to hone these skills. And I think the point that Paul is trying to make is that if you are using the hydraram all the time you are not practicing your conventional forcible entry skills. And then what happens is when you cannot use the hydraram because of circumstance, or a failure of the tool, now you must use these rusty skills and will most likely have to pummel the door like a drunken baboon because you are out of practice. Or, never got the training to be proficient in the first place.

Take care now,

Pat

They don't make sense to you because I don't think you took the time to read all of my posts regarding this subject.

It has been my personal experience that a Rabbit tool if properly employed/finessed tends to cause less damage as opposed to having to shock a door, gap and then set the Halligan. Not only that but it’s also a faster means of entry.

And yes, I've seen the handy work of some other agencies attempt at gaining entry and it DID look like they used a battering ram on the door. In those instances I would say that the tools weren't properly set. But hey, different strokes for different folks I guess.

I personally try to cause as little damage as possible. Often times when I'm able I will bend the frame back into place so that the door is able to be secured until the super can get to it. I know what it’s like being stuck in front of an apartment building for a whole tour so I try and spare guys that when and if I can. I also know that a lot of the people we serve are elderly, on a fixed income, SSI and simply can't afford to pay for costly repairs to doors, locks and door frames.

I guess that doesn't matter to some, so long as they get they're "training" time in at the expense of the public of course.

Doesn’t really make much sense to keep on debating this. Seems like to some a simple “gain entry” is a big occurrence. Where we work its rather routine and we’ve developed methods that work for us.

Be safe now & SDTKAB