Dutchess: Nearest fire company not always called out

[SageVigiles 1,194]

It is my belief, and from what I have seen from MOST of Dutchess - that an IC should just ask for what they require, a generic request- ie; "Give me 2 additonal engines and a ladder.........". From there on - it should be the responsibility of the dispatch center to send the closest, appropriate equipment.

Exactly, it is not the IC's job to dispatch. The dispatchers have the ability to request whatever the IC needs, the IC should be worrying about more important details like water supply, structural integrity, etc than who specifically is coming M/A. The dispatcher, however, is more equipped to know who is available, since they are more apt to know what else is going on at the time. I hate to see it when ICs specifically ask for certain stations and not others. What do you care what the side of the truck says, provided they have adequate manpower and equipment to help mitigate your situation. But, the human factor can never really be taken out of the equation, sometimes, as in these cases, to our detriment.

[firefighter36 52]

We have touched only briefly on duplication of services here. What about towns with multiple distircts that all have the same types of vehicles in close proximity?

The Wappingers area has more rescue trucks than FDNY! Is that practical? In another forum we talked about standardization of equipment. Each district chooses what equipment to deploy in its area, but does anyone else think maybe we have too many chefs trying to make the soup?

Dispatchers, from your standpoint, it the equipment adaquately laid out throughout the county? Do any departments have too many or too few vehicles? Is the Battalion system mis-used or under-utilized?

More importantly, are there enough properly qualified people to staff and respond with all these rigs? What can be done to maintain consistency?

Edited November 16, 2008 by mbendel36

[markmets415 524]

Exactly, it is not the IC's job to dispatch. The dispatchers have the ability to request whatever the IC needs, the IC should be worrying about more important details like water supply, structural integrity, etc than who specifically is coming M/A. The dispatcher, however, is more equipped to know who is available, since they are more apt to know what else is going on at the time. I hate to see it when ICs specifically ask for certain stations and not others. What do you care what the side of the truck says, provided they have adequate manpower and equipment to help mitigate your situation. But, the human factor can never really be taken out of the equation, sometimes, as in these cases, to our detriment.

I have to disagree, The department should have the preplanning and the assignments already placed in the CADS, the dispatchers roll should be to dispatch what is requested. Now if your talking about out of service equipment you may have an arguement, but in our county every evening at 18:00 hrs there is a broadcast of the entire counties and neighboring Litchfield county apparatus that is o/o/s. I will agree that if the IC just asks for a ladder and two engine then the dispatcher bangs out the next closest units available.

I do agree with the request for a piece from a certain company if there is something closer that will provide the same service, that is wrong. Again, if the dept. is organized they should have the planning already be done. The dispatcher in Poughkeepsie does not have any idea where the nearest water supply is in XYZ district. If a certain M/A piece is out on another run then the dispatcher job is to advise the IC of that and they will advise of what the replacement piece is.

Bottom line the Dept has to get their assignments established ahead of time and if this is done they all ready know what M/A is coming. It is alot easier to request a 2nd alarm then it is to ask for this that and something else.

Edited November 16, 2008 by markmets415

[Guest]

I have to disagree, The department should have the preplanning and the assignments already placed in the CADS, the dispatchers roll should be to dispatch what is requested. Now if your talking about out of service equipment you may have an arguement, but in our county every evening at 18:00 hrs there is a broadcast of the entire counties and neighboring Litchfield county apparatus that is o/o/s. I will agree that if the IC just asks for a ladder and two engine then the dispatcher bangs out the next closest units available.

I do agree with the request for a piece from a certain company if there is something closer that will provide the same service, that is wrong. Again, if the dept. is organized they should have the planning already be done. The dispatcher in Poughkeepsie does not have any idea where the nearest water supply is in XYZ district. If a certain M/A piece is out on another run then the dispatcher job is to advise the IC of that and they will advise of what the replacement piece is.

Bottom line the Dept has to get their assignments established ahead of time and if this is done they all ready know what M/A is coming. It is alot easier to request a 2nd alarm then it is to ask for this that and something else.

Thanks Mark I feel the same way the only exception is the inventory of the depts needs to be updated as well as run cards with the county every year.

[markmets415 524]

Thanks Mark I feel the same way the only exception is the inventory of the depts needs to be updated as well as run cards with the county every year.

Exactly Joe and that goes right back to the Chief and officers, they are the ones that are responsible. not the dispatchers.

[Guest]

just another .02 and im probably over a dollar now but why dont the officers go to the dispatch centers and actually see what goes on on a friday or saturday night or any other night

[Guest TCA-ALS25]

I'm sitting here and shaking my a head a bit. OK,..I still don't QUITE get the town/village/district thing down,but you should come down to Pennsylvania and deal with a Commonwealth that allows "Home Rule Charters." That means every municipality has the right to contract with whomever they want for FD and EMS protection.

A few years ago, the CCDES (Chester County's 911 center) tried to create response areas and run cards based on response times, not township borders, especially in the more rural Central and Western sections of the county. Townships howled. Fire companies cried over revenue loss from house donations. The whole thing was dropped like a hot potato. To this day, it is not uncommon for the ALS chase car to wait up to 15 minutes for the BLS bus to arrive, after scratching/failing to respond, in the Far West, like Parkesburg.

I was the victim of the same small-minded, parochial attitudes a few years ago: the EMS squad I worked for ran afoul of the mayor and fire chief (a Hatfields/McCoys deal). Through some back-door deals, the nearest ambulance service from us, about 7 miles to the south, set up a sub-station just across the borough border from us and literally 3 blocks away from us. Gone was 3/4 of our response district. Revenue dropped. We laid off most of our paramedics. The Mayor called us "unreliable" and pushed us off the run cards, thus putting us OOS.

[pd125 0]

Here is a link to an interesting letter to the editor of the Poughkeepsie Journal.

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/article...06/1004/OPINION

I find it interesting that someone is getting published for some of the corruption that plagues this county when it comes to fire response. I wish the Journal could review all the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th dispatches that happen throughout Dutchess County and the redudancy of fire equipment.

The bottom line is Dutchess County can not do a damn thing about this. There are no local or state laws that place fire supression at the county level. The main misconception "Dutchess County Taxpayers" the only thing that the County supports is the 911 center and a lot of is done with a tax on phones. The fire district, village or City sets the level of staffing, equipment and how the department operates. Finally ask yourself this do you want the County come in a say you don't need this equipment it is going to.... It is local tax driven. Untill that is changed nothing will happen.

[x635 4,066]

Poughkeepsie Firefighters are paid so low, they might as well be volunteers. Maybe they should consolidate all the districts in the City and Town, and then they'd at least be able to begin proper staffing.

[uvfd67 0]

We sit here and we talk about how the closest unit not responding is just about volunteer's not calling other departments because of a fight or for whatever reason. Well what about these so called paid departments not caling the closest available unit m/a because they're volunteers. A prime example of this would be today twice while a certain "paid" department in dutchess county was busy with multiple calls it called another "paid" department to call probably a good 10-15 miles while a volunteer ambulance sat 4-5 miles up the road and was not called. Now I know some of you will say that the volunteers are only BLS and it was an ALS call. Well isnt it better to get an ambulance on the scene to treat and TRANSPORT the PATIENT to the CLOSEST HOSPITAL which the last time I checked was definitive care in NYS not a paramedic and from all the things I have read the main thing is the well being of the patient. So with the being said I ask is it not better to have someone there quickly to treat and take the patient to the hospital even if they are volunteers, than to wait 20+ minutes for for a Paid/Paramedic ambulance to respond?

Oh and just so I dont get accused of hiding behind a keyboard and runing my mouth my Name is Mike Murphy and I'm a FF/EMT with Union Vale.

[x134 46]

We sit here and we talk about how the closest unit not responding is just about volunteer's not calling other departments because of a fight or for whatever reason. Well what about these so called paid departments not caling the closest available unit m/a because they're volunteers. A prime example of this would be today twice while a certain "paid" department in dutchess county was busy with multiple calls it called another "paid" department to call probably a good 10-15 miles while a volunteer ambulance sat 4-5 miles up the road and was not called. Now I know some of you will say that the volunteers are only BLS and it was an ALS call. Well isnt it better to get an ambulance on the scene to treat and TRANSPORT the PATIENT to the CLOSEST HOSPITAL which the last time I checked was definitive care in NYS not a paramedic and from all the things I have read the main thing is the well being of the patient. So with the being said I ask is it not better to have someone there quickly to treat and take the patient to the hospital even if they are volunteers, than to wait 20+ minutes for for a Paid/Paramedic ambulance to respond?

Oh and just so I dont get accused of hiding behind a keyboard and runing my mouth my Name is Mike Murphy and I'm a FF/EMT with Union Vale.

To Mr Murphy, I do agree with you to some extent. But the fact is that Volunteer squads in the county have trouble getting out. I do realise that is not the case all the time. I just happen to be working today and I am on the unit you are speaking of 32-72 32-87. And just so we are clear our on scene time was 14 minutes not the 20+ minutes you claim. Yes it is also true that the bls portion can be covered by a closer bls unit. I think Lagrange was giving there ambulance a chance to get out while Arlingtons medic was in route. What do you mean by'' SO CALLED PAID DEPARTMENTS"? If you are man enough to put your name at the end of a post put the names of the departments involved, and by your profile we can see that you are a member of Union Vale. Don't just put "PAID" OR" PAID DEPARTMENT".

Edited November 23, 2008 by x134

[Turborich 12]

We sit here and we talk about how the closest unit not responding is just about volunteer's not calling other departments because of a fight or for whatever reason. Well what about these so called paid departments not caling the closest available unit m/a because they're volunteers. A prime example of this would be today twice while a certain "paid" department in dutchess county was busy with multiple calls it called another "paid" department to call probably a good 10-15 miles while a volunteer ambulance sat 4-5 miles up the road and was not called. Now I know some of you will say that the volunteers are only BLS and it was an ALS call. Well isnt it better to get an ambulance on the scene to treat and TRANSPORT the PATIENT to the CLOSEST HOSPITAL which the last time I checked was definitive care in NYS not a paramedic and from all the things I have read the main thing is the well being of the patient. So with the being said I ask is it not better to have someone there quickly to treat and take the patient to the hospital even if they are volunteers, than to wait 20+ minutes for for a Paid/Paramedic ambulance to respond?

Oh and just so I dont get accused of hiding behind a keyboard and runing my mouth my Name is Mike Murphy and I'm a FF/EMT with Union Vale.

Mike,

I too was on the ALS unit responding from Arlington to the Lagrange mutual aid along with x134. The response to Lagrange today was long... to the farthest point in their District that we will cover, however the patient in need had a response of an ALS ambulance, a BLS ambulance, a fire chief, and a Lagrange Paramedic. From time of Dispatch to TOA of the first medical personnel was 5 minutes. Our response time was 14 minutes. The closest ALS ambulance in service at the time of the alarm aside from AFD was more than likely Beekman 34-79 which would have had a similar if not longer response. Lagrange EMS SOP requires a paramedic dispatched on all calls regardless just like AFD.

This patient was transported ALS aboard Lagrange so your BLS Ambulance from Union Vale would have been cancelled if you assembled and responded immediately. The manpower tones were to free up the AFD ambulance so that we could cover our district which was also stripped and had Mobile Life Support standing by at our HQ to look out for our own taxpayers. The patient was transported by a Lagrange Medic, on a Lagrange Ambulance without need of any additional resources and recieved definitive medical care in less than 5 minutes.. which is what the ultimate goal is of any Fire District.

Arlington and Lagrange have a mutual aid agreement for reciprocal municipal EMS services when one is out of ambulances. This agreement exists secondary to our close proximity to most of the Town of Lagrange and lack of similar services nearby. One of the reasons is that any individual in the Arlington Fire District and Lagrange Fire District requiring EMS does not incur a bill from those services.. that's what they get for their tax bill (as well as two top notch Fire/EMS districts). Just to give you a little insight also; Lagrange and Arlington are combination departments.. which means we have both Volunteers and these "So called paid staff".

I believe that your limited time in the fire service and cavalier attitude may give some insight into your comments. I am wholeheartedly for individuals that are compassionate about their jobs as volunteers or paid staff, however to make such gross generalizations about neighboring departments is very counterproductive to ones advancement and image in the fire service.

Another idea to keep in mind for the future- if you have to end your post with "Oh and just so I dont get accused of hiding behind a keyboard and runing my mouth my Name is" I would seriously reconsider hitting that add reply button since you are more than likely making a mistake.

Your comments are a poor reflection on your department and I suggest before you state an opinion you get your facts straight and check with one of your senior FFs or Officers.

Regards,

Richard W. Muellerleile

Firefighter/ Paramedic, Arlington Fire District

Captain, Town of Shandaken Ambulance Service

Edited November 23, 2008 by Turborich

[Guest Photounit]

I hate these types of posts as they are seldom productive and are the exact reason why many shy away from this site..... The ill informed trying to get you to see things their way..............

This struck a nerve...... "The Wappingers area has more rescue trucks than FDNY! Is that practical?" To answer your question - YES ....... This is a ridiculous comparison to make.....

There is no comparison..... Two completely different operations as well as different uses of the vehicles....... Some of these departments cover large response areas (My dept covers ~20-plus square miles) so it's not like their is a Rescue every 2 miles.... My department added Hurst equipment to an Engine to supplement what our Rescue carries as we have had occasions in the past where we needed extrication at two incidents or the Rescue was committed at another incident.... Now we can handle two AA's at once....... The other thing you have to think about is response time..... Yes you can call M/A, but how long will it take them to get there especially in bad weather? And they're usually tied up with their own incidents....It's not like the response areas are one square mile.... So is there duplication of equipment in the Wappingers area? Maybe from behind your keyboard...... But out in the real world, I don't think so........An maybe the next time the roads are icy, you should listen to the DC Dispatch and see that all of this over abundance of Rescues in the Wappingers area are all busy going from incident to incident..... Can we compare your Dept. to FDNY? Why not??????? I won't even bother commenting on the original topic.......

Edited November 24, 2008 by Photounit

[Guest jbgfd314]

I can't stand the favoritism that I see in Dutchess County among certain fire companies. When I was Chief of my deparment I made it perfectly clear to all mutual aid companies in our immediate area that we would not play favorites. I told them that I don't care if we ever get called to your alarms, if you call us we will do what we can and with as many people as we can, but if you don't need us don't call us. I'm not that big of a buff. I just hope when one of these IC's that make their decisions based on friendship instead of availabilty that they will take the weight if someone gets seriously injured or killed because of there poor decision making. And let the county dispatchers worry about not stripping areas because you should have enough on your plate just being the IC!

[PVFD233 68]

We sit here and we talk about how the closest unit not responding is just about volunteer's not calling other departments because of a fight or for whatever reason. Well what about these so called paid departments not caling the closest available unit m/a because they're volunteers. A prime example of this would be today twice while a certain "paid" department in dutchess county was busy with multiple calls it called another "paid" department to call probably a good 10-15 miles while a volunteer ambulance sat 4-5 miles up the road and was not called. Now I know some of you will say that the volunteers are only BLS and it was an ALS call. Well isnt it better to get an ambulance on the scene to treat and TRANSPORT the PATIENT to the CLOSEST HOSPITAL which the last time I checked was definitive care in NYS not a paramedic and from all the things I have read the main thing is the well being of the patient. So with the being said I ask is it not better to have someone there quickly to treat and take the patient to the hospital even if they are volunteers, than to wait 20+ minutes for for a Paid/Paramedic ambulance to respond?

Oh and just so I dont get accused of hiding behind a keyboard and runing my mouth my Name is Mike Murphy and I'm a FF/EMT with Union Vale.

Mike,

I too was no where near the call and infact never heard the dispatch but I must agree with Sir Muellerleile Ding Dong and Sir Robison (my frikkin hero). What would you want coming to your house, a BLS ambulance or a ALS Ambulance and have it respond at time of dispatch or minutes after mabey not even at all. I too am a volunteer. I get the chance to even respond M/A to their Dept Arlington and the other dept Lagrange. They are both strong depts with Career AND Volunteers. Are you really that upset about your ambulance not being called? You should be happy more then upset that a ambulance got to that residence than not. Also do not forget about Mutual/Aid agreements like Rich mentioned in his post. Another thing, I believe you had some apparatus involved in Lagranges Fire yesterday? If there really was a problem with paid depts calling paid depts over volunteer depts I dont think that would have occured.

I can also vouch for those two guys. They know what they are talking about. Well 99.9% of the time.

Edited November 24, 2008 by SPFC56-233

[uvfd67 0]

Mike,

I too was no where near the call and infact never heard the dispatch but I must agree with Sir Muellerleile Ding Dong and Sir Robison (my frikkin hero). What would you want coming to your house, a BLS ambulance or a ALS Ambulance and have it respond at time of dispatch or minutes after mabey not even at all. I too am a volunteer. I get the chance to even respond M/A to their Dept Arlington and the other dept Lagrange. They are both strong depts with Career AND Volunteers. Are you really that upset about your ambulance not being called? You should be happy more then upset that a ambulance got to that residence than not. Also do not forget about Mutual/Aid agreements like Rich mentioned in his post. Another thing, I believe you had some apparatus involved in Lagranges Fire yesterday? If there really was a problem with paid depts calling paid depts over volunteer depts I dont think that would have occured.

I can also vouch for those two guys. They know what they are talking about. Well 99.9% of the time.

I am not upset at the fact that my ambulance was not called to the scene that is far from the fact. I was just stating an opinion that is all.

[Turborich 12]

I am not upset at the fact that my ambulance was not called to the scene that is far from the fact. I was just stating an opinion that is all.

And bashing every Carrer Firefighter in Dutchess County.. but that's OK... because you were just stating an opinion, that's all.

UNREAL

[x134 46]

Mike,

Not to carry this on any further but since you were called to the fire, after not being called to the ems call, does that change your opinion about Combination Departments only calling Combination Departments, or ''Paid'' as you put it?

I honestly don't think it matters if it the City of Poughkeepsie calls for us, or Beekman or for that matter Roumbout or Fishkill , and yes even to Union Vale...... If YOU needed our equipment or manpower (Arlington) we would go. That is what mutual aid is for ....to help.

Don

Edited November 24, 2008 by x134

[uvfd67 0]

And bashing every Carrer Firefighter in Dutchess County.. but that's OK... because you were just stating an opinion, that's all.

UNREAL

This whole topic has been about calling the closest unit vs. personal preferences, but I guess it's ok because it was Arlington and Lagrange and they have an agreement with each other. If It's about a bill if Union Vale had responded and one of the Lagrange or Arlington medics rode with Union Vale then there would be no bill.

[PVFD233 68]

This whole topic has been about calling the closest unit vs. personal preferences, but I guess it's ok because it was Arlington and Lagrange and they have an agreement with each other. If It's about a bill if Union Vale had responded and one of the Lagrange or Arlington medics rode with Union Vale then there would be no bill.

Don't believe the M/A agreements are based on a bill?

[uvfd67 0]

Mike,

Not to carry this on any further but since you were called to the fire, after not being called to the ems call, does that change your opinion about Combination Departments only calling Combination Departments, or ''Paid'' as you put it?

Don

Don,

I did not see your post before I put my last one up. All I am talking about is what this topic is about calling the closest unit and it just seems that its ok not to call the closest unit if there is an agreement between departments. That is kind of how the responses to my question have been.

[uvfd67 0]

Don't believe the M/A agreements are based on a bill?

I wasn't refering to the M/A agreement I was responding to something previously posted. I tryed to quote it in my post but I had trouble with it sorry for the confusion.

[x134 46]

This whole topic has been about calling the closest unit vs. personal preferences, but I guess it's ok because it was Arlington and Lagrange and they have an agreement with each other. If It's about a bill if Union Vale had responded and one of the Lagrange or Arlington medics rode with Union Vale then there would be no bill.

I understand, but your department does not provide ALS service. Correct me if I am wrong NDP is only during the week. Even if lagrange did not get out we would still have transported if it was BLS. And yes there is no bill.

Edited November 24, 2008 by x134

[x134 46]

Don,

I did not see your post before I put my last one up. All I am talking about is what this topic is about calling the closest unit and it just seems that its ok not to call the closest unit if there is an agreement between departments. That is kind of how the responses to my question have been.

Mike,

I hear you man. I wonder the same things sometimes. But it not for the rank and file to figure out. I've been is this service of ours for almost 22 years. I have seen some pretty interesting things that just make you say hmmm.

I am sure agreements hold some political issues sometimes. Should it be that way....No. Someone stated before that sometimes the county will not strip a certan area, and I agree with that. Or the closest Department can not provide the same type of service so the next closest is sent to the alarm... Hope that helps a little.

No hard feelings bro stop by the F.D. sometime.

Edited November 24, 2008 by x134

[moggie6 54]

I hate these types of posts as they are seldom productive and are the exact reason why many shy away from this site..... The ill informed trying to get you to see things their way..............

This struck a nerve...... "The Wappingers area has more rescue trucks than FDNY! Is that practical?" To answer your question - YES ....... This is a ridiculous comparison to make.....

There is no comparison..... Two completely different operations as well as different uses of the vehicles....... Some of these departments cover large response areas (My dept covers ~20-plus square miles) so it's not like their is a Rescue every 2 miles.... My department added Hurst equipment to an Engine to supplement what our Rescue carries as we have had occasions in the past where we needed extrication at two incidents or the Rescue was committed at another incident.... Now we can handle two AA's at once....... The other thing you have to think about is response time..... Yes you can call M/A, but how long will it take them to get there especially in bad weather? And they're usually tied up with their own incidents....It's not like the response areas are one square mile.... So is there duplication of equipment in the Wappingers area? Maybe from behind your keyboard...... But out in the real world, I don't think so........An maybe the next time the roads are icy, you should listen to the DC Dispatch and see that all of this over abundance of Rescues in the Wappingers area are all busy going from incident to incident..... Can we compare your Dept. to FDNY? Why not??????? I won't even bother commenting on the original topic.......

My purpose of starting this post is to raise an awarness to what is happening in our county as a whole. As a career firefighter i wear my union hat when I have to. I also don't forget where I came from either. Some have chastised me for this, oh well. We are all here to serve the people who call 911 for assistance.

Did this post turn into pointing fingers? Yes a little bit. Is it right, well I don't know...people can give an opinion and everyone has one. In Dutchess County, if we want to admit it or not, our system is slightly flawed. Why is it we can't have a system like PG County? I don't want to here the response of to many kingdoms or to many egos either.

Why is it that Rombout Drives by the Village of Fishkill Fire Station to go to alarms?

Why does Arlington Drive by The Hooker Ave Fire Station to go to a fire alarm at St. Ann's?

How come in Hyde Park, Roosevelt travels through two fire districts to get to alarms at the CIA?

And in the Wappingers Rt 9 area, the fire departments are varried because of districts. Mr. Johnson I respect your opinion of the abundance of Rescues in the Wappingers Area but why is a New Hackensac Rescue truck coming all the way down to Rt. 9 when Wappingers Falls is right there?

The list could go on and on and i'm sure we can find faults in every fire district and department if we looked at them. We are here to serve people and get resources to help them in a timely mannor. District boundaries and egos should not matter. But they do and my question is why?

[uvfd67 0]

Mike,

I hear you man. I wonder the same things sometimes. But it not for the rank and file to figure out. I've been is this service of ours for almost 22 years. I have seen some pretty interesting things that just make you say hmmm.

I am sure agreements hold some political issues sometimes. Should it be that way....No. Someone stated before that sometimes the county will not strip a certan area, and I agree with that. Or the closest Department can not provide the same type of service so the next closest is sent to the alarm... Hope that helps a little.

No hard feelings bro stop by the F.D. sometime.

No hard feelings at all. Unfortunately what we have in this county is a "this my sandbox" mentallity and it crosses both spectrums. We need to look at how we do business on both sides and we need to do what is best for the residents we serve. There are alot of things like moggie6 said and maybe just maybe we should not be afraid of another dept. coming and taking over from us and just work together Paid, Combo, and Volunteer.

Edited November 24, 2008 by uvfd67

[Turborich 12]

Alright, lets all go out for a beer...

As a wise member of this forum once said;

I'm glad no lives were lost over this LOL!

[x134 46]

Alright, lets all go out for a beer...

As a wise member of this forum once said;

I'm glad no lives were lost over this LOL!

Rootbeer for Mike! LOL

[moggie6 54]

I'm down for a beer....and then a few more

[Turborich 12]

Rootbeer for Mike! LOL

Oh shoot... that's right