Stretching The Line

[ex-commish 490]

You pull up to a fire which is in a bedroom of a two story house. You stretch the attack line to the front door. Do you ask for water before you enter the house? Before you ascend the stairs? Wait untill you get to the top of the stairs? Wait untill you are about to enter the room? Firehouse.Com did a survey on this and I am curious to see what the thoughts are in this forum. I prefer to have water as I enter the house.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

HFD, I'm pretty much with you, anything residential that is 1 to 2 stories I prefer to have the line charged and ensure I have good flow. 3 & 4 stories I'd stretch to the floor below. This has been standard practice for pretty much every department I've worked for or was a member of.

[Remember585 815]

Charge it before entering. Houses are generally too cramped to go inside with a dry line then try to charge it. Next thing you know you've got kinks all over the place, or when it charges you suddenly find yourself getting shoved into a wall or something.

Once that line makes it's way upstairs, a 2nd charged line should protect the stairs for the brothers making the push.

[firecapt32 282]

Seems the logical thing is 1 .5 line or 1.75 line is to get water first--make sure you have water. Get all members on the same side.kinks can drop gpm's by 20 to 30 to 50 depending on how many kinks you have, so be careful of restricted water flow.

[firemoose827 324]

Charge it at the door before entering. I want to know if the engine has any pump problems before I enter. Also, you can bleed the line and make a quick size-up before entering.

When you get to the door flake the hose out behind you in an "S" pattern which will make the stretch easier to do when its charged.

[Guest]

In a 1-2 story residential structure, charging prior to entry to be on the safe side. It will ensure water flow from the pump, reduce kinks, & if someone forgets to chock a door, or a chock for some reason fails, it wont close over the line restricting water flow. And if your using a fog or automatic nozzle, you can be sure its turned to the right for a straight stream when bleeding the air out at the door...."Right to fight", an acronym I was taught in FF1 that ill never forget.

Edited October 23, 2008 by NoFearFD

[ny10570 745]

How much fire and how big is the house? If it were up to me and I didn't know exactly where I'm going or there isn't a truck doing a primary to tell me where to go the hose is staying dry until I get close and know where I'm going. Dept policy however is lines are charged outside in all structures.

[Remember585 815]

Dept policy however is lines are charged outside in all structures.

I'd say that's your answer right there...

[AFS1970 504]

Gut reaction is charge the line at the front door. First and foremost this is to ensure that you have water. Second even if you are not at the seat of the fire, you are probably protecting a means of egress while you get there. The only qualifier I would put into place is that smoke/fire conditions will dictate allot of what you do, but being in a burning building with an uncharged line under most circumstances sounds like a bad idea.

[FFPCogs 863]

At the front door....what if there's a problem with the line or pump..better to find out before entering than when you have fire rolling at you.

[demps121 39]

private dwelling, stretch line to the front door, charge line, bleed the line make sure you have good water, check your stream shaper (if using fog nozzle) right to fight, mask up, truck forces door, in you go with the protection of a charged line.

Edited October 26, 2008 by demps121

[firecapt32 282]

Capt Demps--short-- sweet -right to the point, and correct as usual.

[antiquefirelt 994]

We're in the process of rewriting our residential fire SOG. Draft form regarding entry into 1 or 2 family dwellings:

*1.75" line (150 gpm min.) to the front door, charged and bled at the door where the fire is less than 3 stories above the level of entry.

*Facepieces will be donned at the same point the line is charged. SCBA masks shall be charged when smoke conditions are encountered. Most of the time this will be upon donning the mask to prevent "fogging up".

[JFLYNN 681]

We're in the process of rewriting our residential fire SOG. Draft form regarding entry into 1 or 2 family dwellings:

*1.75" line (150 gpm min.) to the front door, charged and bled at the door where the fire is less than 3 stories above the level of entry.

*Facepieces will be donned at the same point the line is charged. SCBA masks shall be charged when smoke conditions are encountered. Most of the time this will be upon donning the mask to prevent "fogging up".

I see this a little differently than most of you guys...a one or two family house or a one, two, or three story structure can actually be quite large and / or have a confusing layout with a lot of bends and turns...in my opinion, the line should not be charged until smoke conditions dictate that it is time to don the SCBA facepiece...it may take a lot longer and require a lot more effort to advance a charged line than an uncharged line to the room where you THINK the main body of fire is located, not to mention that once you reach where you think the fire is, you might find out something different and now you have to reposition a charged line. Also, adding lengths, which is sometimes necessary, takes more time once the line is charged.

In the training academy, you know the layout, you know where the main fire room or rooms are, and you know your preconnect will reach where you are going...in the real world, everything is subject to change and is not always as it at first appears. All the extra time required to move the charged line around a structure to where the fire is will allow the fire to grow and this is actually a less safe tactic for us than simply advancing the uncharged line until a heavy smoke condition is encountered.

QTIP

[FFPCogs 863]

I see this a little differently than most of you guys...a one or two family house or a one, two, or three story structure can actually be quite large and / or have a confusing layout with a lot of bends and turns...in my opinion, the line should not be charged until smoke conditions dictate that it is time to don the SCBA facepiece...it may take a lot longer and require a lot more effort to advance a charged line than an uncharged line to the room where you THINK the main body of fire is located, not to mention that once you reach where you think the fire is, you might find out something different and now you have to reposition a charged line. Also, adding lengths, which is sometimes necessary, takes more time once the line is charged.

In the training academy, you know the layout, you know where the main fire room or rooms are, and you know your preconnect will reach where you are going...in the real world, everything is subject to change and is not always as it at first appears. All the extra time required to move the charged line around a structure to where the fire is will allow the fire to grow and this is actually a less safe tactic for us than simply advancing the uncharged line until a heavy smoke condition is encountered.

QTIP

Very good points indeed. What strikes me most here though is that many answers seemed to be based on the experiences of those posting. It seems most (and definitely me) had the notion of a 1 to 2 story average ranch. RR or colonial style single family dwelling in mind. But there are many departments in which as well as these there are many larger multi-family 1 or 2 story private dwellings to contend with. JFLYNN makes some excellent observations and I must agree with his thinking regarding these larger structures...especially with limited manpower. So thanks JF for coming at this from a different (at least from me) angle.

In the end for all the SOP/Gs in the world conditions dictate actions.

Cogs

Edited October 27, 2008 by FFPCogs

[robert benz 344]

I see this a little differently than most of you guys...a one or two family house or a one, two, or three story structure can actually be quite large and / or have a confusing layout with a lot of bends and turns...in my opinion, the line should not be charged until smoke conditions dictate that it is time to don the SCBA facepiece...it may take a lot longer and require a lot more effort to advance a charged line than an uncharged line to the room where you THINK the main body of fire is located, not to mention that once you reach where you think the fire is, you might find out something different and now you have to reposition a charged line. Also, adding lengths, which is sometimes necessary, takes more time once the line is charged.

In the training academy, you know the layout, you know where the main fire room or rooms are, and you know your preconnect will reach where you are going...in the real world, everything is subject to change and is not always as it at first appears. All the extra time required to move the charged line around a structure to where the fire is will allow the fire to grow and this is actually a less safe tactic for us than simply advancing the uncharged line until a heavy smoke condition is encountered.

QTIP

I agree with you John, I have gone to a second floor landing with fire in the attic / 3rd floor before charging the line, also the size of the structure will dictate when to charge the line. Ok so when you bleed the line water does get the house wet oh well, with limited manpower we didnt expend too much energy dragging a charged line up a couple of flights of stairs.

Door to the fire area closed, light or no smoke, I guess you have to know your crews capabilities.

Also on the subject of donning your mask thats a lot of air being used before you find smoke if you are a couple of floors away from the fire.

As always SOP'S and the situation will or should dictate what your course of action is.

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

I would say charge the line at the door for P.D fires. If your company is operating properly the main body of fire will be located by the ladder company or the engine officer prior to the line moving into the bldg. We dont search for fire and strectch a line at the same time, 2 different functions. So once we have confirmed the fire location we can bring the charged hose line in. If repositioning a charged line is a concern think about this. If you have stretched to the wrong location and have discovered the fire is some where else, maybe behind you or below you, wouldnt you want to have water in your line, I know I would.

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

I dont like the idea of waiting for water until I encounter a heavy smoke condition. Many times a heavy smoke condition is immeadiately followed by a heavy fire condition as conditions begin to deteriorate rapidly and the room lites off. This is not the time that I want to find out we lost water, have a kink etc etc.

[x129K 1,393]

He didnt state HEAVY smoke condition, just "smoke conditions dictate that it is time to don the SCBA facepiece".

There could be a big difference depending on your tolerance to smoke.

Common sense can go a long way here........

[antiquefirelt 994]

I see this a little differently than most of you guys...a one or two family house or a one, two, or three story structure can actually be quite large and / or have a confusing layout with a lot of bends and turns...in my opinion, the line should not be charged until smoke conditions dictate that it is time to don the SCBA facepiece...it may take a lot longer and require a lot more effort to advance a charged line than an uncharged line to the room where you THINK the main body of fire is located, not to mention that once you reach where you think the fire is, you might find out something different and now you have to reposition a charged line. Also, adding lengths, which is sometimes necessary, takes more time once the line is charged.

Very good points Chief. I failed to detail all points of our SOG, which gives some leeway for large Mc Mansions and fires in where the fire is more than two floors from the point of entry. As for 1 and 2 family dwellings of typical size 1000-2500 sqft. we felt that charging the line at the door rarely would slow the attack and ensures proper water to the line before guys are in under the smoke. We may be putting to much on paper? Which is one school of thought here, but our SOG's are written in a "playbook" fashion and are utilized as training lesson plans as well, so it's hard to leave stuff out, especially with mixed staffing as we're a combination FD. Larger dwellings, multi-family and commercial fires have different SOG's that allow us to take advantage of code required separations and other common building features.

In the case of our SOG's, they are just that - guidelines used to ensure our personnel and officers are on the same page, from training, to the response and making the attack. If the SOG is violated, the officer or firefighter is first asked if they know the SOG, and why they felt the need to stray. All reasonable answers are acceptable, but we do hold personnel accountable to know the SOG first. SOP's or Rules and Regs are more "binding" and discipline is meted out for violations of them.

As for using smoke as the indicator as to when to charge the line. I might allow this in an all career setting. This is not a slam on POC or volunteers, but a recognition of those who run all the time to smells and bells, BS food on the stove and are always the first in at structure fires. The career guys in our FD get way more training and experience reading smoke. Some POC guys are very good, but not enough of them to allow our combo FD to put a policy in place. Our policies must protect as close to 100% of our people as possible. This makes them (SOP's/SOG's) part of the lowest common denominator theory. Some of us need to have tighter SOG's/SOP's due to our staffing and lowest common training/experience denominator.

Sh*T happens to career people too though, look at Colhrain. OH this past spring. Two career firefighters died in a single family dwelling. They had not charged their line before entry and when they found the fire there was radio confusion, and water issues which lead to their not getting water and being trapped and killed. Surely there were other issues, but in this case the charged line may have made the difference.

[robert benz 344]

I would say charge the line at the door for P.D fires. If your company is operating properly the main body of fire will be located by the ladder company or the engine officer prior to the line moving into the bldg. We dont search for fire and strectch a line at the same time, 2 different functions. So once we have confirmed the fire location we can bring the charged hose line in. If repositioning a charged line is a concern think about this. If you have stretched to the wrong location and have discovered the fire is some where else, maybe behind you or below you, wouldnt you want to have water in your line, I know I would.

Paul,

I know how it all works so I am playing devils advocate here, most of the responses are worried about the safety of the men saying dont go in without a charged line, cant disagree with that thinking, well how come we can send in a truck company without the protection of a hoseline if we are so worried about water and safety???

devils been put back in the box under lock and key

[antiquefirelt 994]

Paul,

I know how it all works so I am playing devils advocate here, most of the responses are worried about the safety of the men saying dont go in without a charged line, cant disagree with that thinking, well how come we can send in a truck company without the protection of a hoseline if we are so worried about water and safety???

If I might weigh in here. Again, we're talking typical single or two family dwellings:

Sending guys in ahead of the line is certainly not the most common way its done by the majority of FD's in my area, though is the most common way we conduct our operations. One of the key elements to having the truck or in our case the duty officer and hopefully his partner, ahead of the line is that we're basing our safety on the line being rapidly deployed and charged. Any delay in water to the nozzle must be communicated to ensure this crew can back out or get to a point of relative safety. In my FD most of the time the first in crew (without a line) finds the fire, communicates the location and best route to the the engine crew and starts the search often going above the fire. This crew doesn't enter the fire area, leaving it for the engine crew who knows they're responsible for the search of this area. The crew without the line must ensure they are not between the line and the fire. The stairs are generally found very near the front door and the charged line quickly can cut off fire and heat travel up the same vertical opening. When we have a crew above the fire without a line the first line's priority is not extinguishment but protection of the means of egress. Sometime extinguishing the fire is the best way to do this, but sometimes just holding the fire is safer for the crew above.

Again, sending guys in ahead of the line should be reserved for companies and personnel who have quality training and decent experience, very much like VES.

[demps121 39]

in my reply I just tried to make it simple, it seems now we are going to take this apart, when I talk about line to the front door you should be to the left or right, this way the truck has room to work. Also control your equipment so it does not get kicked out of the way by another FF. We did not discuss the weather, is the house buttoned up, is there a need for vert vent to prevent backdraft? when I said mask up, put on your facepiece while you have time(the door is being forced) you do not have to go on air, just click in when you hit the smoke, (I know it limits your vision a little) we do not know if the bedroom is 1st floor or second floor. Is it a side hall colonial with the door on the left and flames showing on the right (longer stretch across the house)? Size of the house, suburban home residential street (not a mansion) I assumed you were asking for a small dept with limited resources.

Edited October 27, 2008 by demps121

[grumpyff 1,159]

I'd agree with most everyone here for a 1 to 2 story private dwelling...charge at the front door, check nozzle then enter (with SCBA). During a recent class I took, we did a 'dry run' to practice hose management before any fires were set. One thing we learned real quick... chock the doors, and communicate with each other. During one of the dry runs, the uncharged hose slid right under a door, thereby making it impossible to advance to line, or charge it if needed. The nozzleman and back up attempted to continue pulling until the third man told them to stop so that the hose could be removed from under the door.

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Capt,

As always I appreciate and respect your comments. As a rule when ladder company members are commencing thier primary searches their mission is twofold. To search for life, and also for the main body of fire. We try to begin our searches as close to the fire area and work our way back in an attempt to locate those in most peril but also to locate the fire and direct the hose line. In carrying out this inherently dangerous operation we always operate under the protection of a charged 2.5 gallon water can which has proven more than sufficient to hold a room of fire at bay until which time a line is in place or an orderly retreat can be made.

[FFPCogs 863]

Capt,

As always I appreciate and respect your comments. As a rule when ladder company members are commencing thier primary searches their mission is twofold. To search for life, and also for the main body of fire. We try to begin our searches as close to the fire area and work our way back in an attempt to locate those in most peril but also to locate the fire and direct the hose line. In carrying out this inherently dangerous operation we always operate under the protection of a charged 2.5 gallon water can which has proven more than sufficient to hold a room of fire at bay until which time a line is in place or an orderly retreat can be made.

PJ,

Very well put.

Cogs

p.s only 4 words...LOL

[Guest Dept 10]

I am all for making the stretch of the first line as easy as one can but one has to be very carefull. With todays P.P.E. one can put themselves too deep into the fire and not realize it, as stated before conditions can change rapidly you can have fire over your head and not know it unless you have a T.I.C. with you. Had the personal exsperiance of such a thing happening and when water was called for and the nozzle opened the line went limp!. What had happened was the fire over our head had melted a light fixture and the moltant metal had burned thru the line before water was called for.Thank god for the back up line,couldnt see it at the time smoke conditions changed rapidly to thick black smoke but the top third of the door had burned thru as we went down the 75' hallway.