Attached Garage Fire Strategy

[firemoose827 324]

Lets get some discussion going here.

You respond to a structure fire and discover it to be an attached 2 car garage. The garage is working good, and there is moderate smoke coming out the front door, all the windows in the residence are intact.

Whats the SOP for your dept to handle these fires? Where does your first line go? Second line? Search procedure? Tell me everything you can think of for handling garage type fires, dont just answer my questions, be thoughtful and go through everything off the top of your head.

Anyone?

[abaduck 123]

Lets get some discussion going here.

You respond to a structure fire and discover it to be an attached 2 car garage. The garage is working good, and there is moderate smoke coming out the front door, all the windows in the residence are intact.

Whats the SOP for your dept to handle these fires? Where does your first line go? Second line? Search procedure? Tell me everything you can think of for handling garage type fires, dont just answer my questions, be thoughtful and go through everything off the top of your head.

Anyone?

Disclaimer: I'm less than two years on the department and I don't know exactly what our SOPs are for this, if we have any. So this is straight analysis based on basic training.

You don't state the time of day, if there is a car in the garage, or how the front door came to be open. 'Attached' garage could be anything from a structurally-separate lean-to, to a built-under-bedroom garage in a ranch-type house. So there may be some variability depending on these factors, and a bunch of other sizeup issues.

Unless there's a family standing at the end of the driveway saying 'everyone is out' you're going to have to do a primary search, and the first line is going to protect the stairs, as usual, I would assume. As for the attack on the fire itself... well if there's moderate smoke from the front door the the fire may be about to, or already is, extending to the house - the first line may be able to make an attack on that. For garage fires, presumably the last thing you want to do is push the fire into the house, so the initial attack should be through the interior door to the garage if possible, right?

Concerns... garages frequently have utilities, and I'd be thinking Hazmat... propane tanks maybe... that kind of thing.

Is that a reasonable start? Now wiser heads can chime in and tell me where I'm talking nonsense

Mike

[Guest]

You also forgot to mention is this a volunteer or a paid company how many rigs responding eta to the scene and manpower?

[Guest]

NEVER push fire in to a residence. Take the first line in to the garage. Many garages also have either a side door or rear door. Get 3-4 guys on a line for the garage, and then have a second line brought in to the house for extension, but ONLY after the garage is vented, and that means the doors are opened, get that saw out and cut top to bottom, get the heat out so the guys inside dont get punished. Expect the unexpected in a garage, but do not forget, gas cans that can be kicked, propane, torch tanks, large metal racks for storage, and my favorite the springs for the doors that when pop usually scare the lights out of you. Best bet may be to hit it from the door way to get it cooled and knocked down a little before making a push, depending on the volume of fire.

Safety first!

[spin_the_wheel 460]

Never ever be tempted no matter how easy it may look, to put the first attack line on the fire "through" the garage door opening. Always bring the line through the house and attack from the inside of home. You are protecting the rest of the structure as well as protecting the crews who will do the searches. Making entry through the garage may look like an easy fix but there is always the chance of the garage door coming down while you are making entry into the space or working inside, trapping the crew or cutting off water supply. Who knows what clutter and hazzards may be in the garage area. Attacking form an interior space gives you a safer area to operate from, you have the use of a doorway and a door hopefully to aide you of things go south quick. Not to mention pushing the fire away form the rest of the structure, and if done right you have that nice large garage door opening to push everything out of.

[Guest]

Just a quick note if garage door is open puta pike pole under it so it cant roll down

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

We had a discussion on this very topic about a year ago following a fire in a local dept and that discussion actually resulted in a training minutes video on fireengineering.com. The tactics for an attached garage fire are very straight forward. The first line enters the dwelling to extinquish any extension or prevent any possible extension. The second line gets the fire. If there is a door from the garage to the dwelling, and conditions allow, the line may be advanced from the dwelling into the garage to work the fire. If not the first line may have to stand fast while the second line gets the fire. Obviously searches will be conducted simutaneously. Attacking the garage first could quite possibly lead to involvement of the dwelling area and endanger those within, including us doing searches. The first engine crew must be disciplined to enter the structure and maintain that vital posistion. It sucks that they may not get a piece of the fire but they are doing alot of good and are operating in a professional manner.Check out the video by LT Ray McCormack, a recognized expert in engine company operations.

Good Topic

Paul D.

[Guest]

I guess I didnt describe it well. I mean through an interior entrance or the rear/side entrance, not directly in to the structure from the garage doors. I said the same thing to Paul D. If this was an incipient fire taking the line to the interior to suppress spread is a good idea, but 9 times out of 10 we get the call when it is in its well on its way, and that requires the first line to attack the fire, its already spread, we know the fire load of our garages, its open, uncompartmented and needs big water fast. Manpower is the other issue. If this was in the area of NYC it would be mobbed with guys, outside of it, not so much, and the delay in their arrival and in the functions of critical tasks will have an impact on the guys making the push. Many volunteer FD's are lucky to get 10-15 guys during the day and thats with the highway garage responding. Im sure someone from Mahopac Falls who was at the job on Secor road can give us some input as they had this very scenario happen but the garage was below the dwelling.

Edited October 17, 2008 by roofsopen

[LTNRFD 266]

Just a quick note if garage door is open puta pike pole under it so it cant roll down

This is also a good tactic to do, if you are going thru the garage to get at a basement fire in a private dwelling. I was on the 1st line in, thru the garage, to attack a basement fire. Within 30 seconds we lost water pressure on the line. Being around the corner and down the hall from the garage, we did not notice that the automatic garage door unit had closed on our hose line. The guys working the outside quickly got a bar under the door and pushed it up enough for the water to flow again. The release was popped on the chain track and a pike pole was placed to maintain the opened door. From that point on, I religiously would pop the bracket to the track on any call using the garage door as a means of egress.

[KRF178 49]

I'll take a shot here......At size-up, try to determine what the seat of the fire is, it's a strong possibility that the origin being in a garage it may be a vehicle which brings up a few different things, tire explosions, fuel leaks/ignition. Consider Haz-mat, ventilation, and extension. The sign of the smoke coming out of the front door of the house tells me, as already stated that the fire may not be far behind.

1st thing, ventilation. Depending on construction, preferbly vertical. Not to say that I wouldn't use the large door(s) to my advantage.

I would conduct a normal primary search, but have the search crew keep eyes open for any further sign of extension to the living structure.

My 1st line would be in the front door of the residence to 1. protect the "exposure" (for lack of a better term, being that since the garage is attached it is one structure) 2. start the fire attack through the garage access from the house.

My 2nd line would be a 2 1/2" at the garage door ready to advance when the interior line has made considerable progress. The 2 1/2" would go to work after positive fire attack has been reported by the interior crews. I wouldn't send either crew in too deep for hazards that are common to most garages.....suspended objects, falling shelves etc. Until conditions were better and visibility improved. The interior line can make a good start and the 2 1/2" outside has the pressure and penetration to finish the job.

After the fire has been darkened down, in goes the TIC with a charged line and some tools, checking all adjacent walls for any sign of heat.

[x242Steve 1]

Just a quick note if garage door is open puta pike pole under it so it cant roll down

...if the height isn't quite right you can also clamp vise-grips onto the track, or of course twist the track with a halligan but that just adds to the damage... also it only takes a second to un-plug the motor once the door is in the open position! that way you don't have to worry if the little computer in the motor goes haywire from heat.

[Guest]

We had a discussion on this very topic about a year ago following a fire in a local dept and that discussion actually resulted in a training minutes video on fireengineering.com. The tactics for an attached garage fire are very straight forward. The first line enters the dwelling to extinquish any extension or prevent any possible extension. The second line gets the fire. If there is a door from the garage to the dwelling, and conditions allow, the line may be advanced from the dwelling into the garage to work the fire. If not the first line may have to stand fast while the second line gets the fire. Obviously searches will be conducted simutaneously. Attacking the garage first could quite possibly lead to involvement of the dwelling area and endanger those within, including us doing searches. The first engine crew must be disciplined to enter the structure and maintain that vital posistion. It sucks that they may not get a piece of the fire but they are doing alot of good and are operating in a professional manner.Check out the video by LT Ray McCormack, a recognized expert in engine company operations.

Good Topic

Paul D.

Great Topic.

Paul Debartolomeo describes the same approach I would take to this fire.

While there is a lot of vagueness in the scenario description, my general answer is adaptable to what was posed.

I use the RECEO-VS mnemonic as a memory jogger when I pull up on a scene.

It prioritizes the actions of the first due companies.

R - rescue

E - exposures

C - confinement

E - extinguishment

O - overhaul

V - ventilation

S - search

So I pull up on scene, and after sizing up the situation, my first thoughts are whether there is an obvious and immediate rescue that needs to be effected. If I don't have sufficient personnel onscene at that moment to satisfy 2-in 2-out, and there is need for an immediate rescue, I will inform dispatch and do what is needed to effect the rescue.

My next focus is on exposures. Before commiting resources I need to be sure that not seeing the bigger picture leads me the wrong way. In the case of this well involved garage fire, I treat the residential structure as an exposure to the garage. Unless there is clear evidence that there is someone in peril in the garage, my first efforts will be to prevent fire spread into the residential structure, and order the first line in through the front door. The first due truck interior team will force entry if needed, and conduct a primary search towards the garage in order to locate victims and search for possible extension into the residence. The first due truck exterior team will throw ladders if it is a multi story house, and perform VES of the bedrooms.

The first due engine will be in a dynamic position. Their first and foremost duty is to protect the interior stairs. Protection of the interior stairs is paramount to ensure the safety of anyone upstairs, be it a victim or a firefighter. If there is no fire in the area of the interior stairs, they can start moving through the interior of the residence towards the garage. They will be gearing up to confine the fire.

By now the second line should be ready to put in place. The second line should back up the first line. This is bread and butter basics. The second line goes in the front door, and can take up position where the first line was protecting the interior stairs. The first line can now move towards the seat of the fire to start extinguishing it. The backup line is in a good position to back up the first line if needed. The truck crews having completed primary and secondary searched should now be opening up and checking for extension between the house and garage. Depending on the layout and construction of the house a third line may be needed wherever the truck crews are opening up in order to put out any extending fire found while opening up. This all continues in the overhaul stage until the fire is out.

Having lines attacking the fire directly in the garage is ok, but communication between crews and the IC is vital to prevent serious injury or worse caused by opposing streams.

[markmets415 524]

click on link, http://www.fireengineering.com/ and once opened on the top center of the page you will see simulations, click on it go down and you will see one for a garage fire, bring up the incident and good luck saving the house.

Edited October 18, 2008 by markmets415

[Guest]

You guys must volunteer in a paid dept. How do you think you are going to get all these tasks done? A fire double's in volume every 30 seconds. Average response times are 4 minutes plus and thats for a paid dept, and that is after someone notices it. You need to put the fire out, of course it would be nice to worry about fire spread intitally but like I said, unless you have manpower up the yin yang, and they are competent its just not going to happen. Professionally I have seen numerous first lines go to the seat of the fire when they are supposed to protect the interior stairs of a building with wood cl-3 construction, its just not going to happen, although it is a good idea. Getting those garage doors open is key, knowing if the blade on your saw is gonna cut through metal garage doors is key, knowing you should cut top to bottom is key. Vertical ventilation is not going to be practical, how many garages have you been in that didnt have either a ceiling or storage above them. Lets also not forget that it is fire code to have some kind of fire protection on the door from a garage to the house.

[markmets415 524]

Lets also not forget that it is fire code to have some kind of fire protection on the door from a garage to the house.

If there was a fire code when the house was built.

[Guest]

Touche, true, but how many houses had attached garages when the motors that drove those vehicles had a different kind of exhaust :-) My parents addition was put on in the 70's and it even has some fire protection.

[Guest]

You guys must volunteer in a paid dept. How do you think you are going to get all these tasks done? A fire double's in volume every 30 seconds. Average response times are 4 minutes plus and thats for a paid dept, and that is after someone notices it. You need to put the fire out, of course it would be nice to worry about fire spread intitally but like I said, unless you have manpower up the yin yang, and they are competent its just not going to happen. Professionally I have seen numerous first lines go to the seat of the fire when they are supposed to protect the interior stairs of a building with wood cl-3 construction, its just not going to happen, although it is a good idea. Getting those garage doors open is key, knowing if the blade on your saw is gonna cut through metal garage doors is key, knowing you should cut top to bottom is key. Vertical ventilation is not going to be practical, how many garages have you been in that didnt have either a ceiling or storage above them. Lets also not forget that it is fire code to have some kind of fire protection on the door from a garage to the house.

Not sure who you are adressing the first sentence of your response to, but I will say that in this situation I disagree with your tactic of an immediate attack on the garage. It will push fire into the residential structure. The fire protection from the garage to the house has already been compromised as evidenced by smoke in the residential side of the structure.

Where is the life safety hazard in this situation? It's not in the garage. If it is going good as described by the original poster, chances are anyone that is in there has perished. The possible hazard to life exists in the structure, and should be assumed to be there, until primary and secondary searched have cleared those areas. Prudence would dictate using resources to prevent fire spread into the residential side of the structure.

Stopping fire spread to the residence, and confining the fire to the garage area, would be my strategy for this. Even if the partition between the garage and residence is not fire rated, there is a natural demarcation there that should buy you some time. If you can hold the fire from spreading through the structure, and there are no other exposures to be concerned with, the garage will burn itself out in the case manpower is so limited that it cannot be attacked safely with an exterior attack that does not risk a crew entering a portion of the structure that presents many hazards.

As Paul D. stated, it takes discipline to stand fast when instinct wants you to be a moth drawn to the flame.

[markmets415 524]

Touche, true, but how many houses had attached garages when the motors that drove those vehicles had a different kind of exhaust :-) My parents addition was put on in the 70's and it even has some fire protection.

Well there are several built before than that all there may be a door that has glass panes and provides NO fire protection whatever, as my old Chief used to say "Pre-existing nonconforming"

Edited October 18, 2008 by markmets415

[Guest]

Never said fight the fire in to the garage. That is the technique in the fire engineering video. I am saying is that by the time you get there that first line must extinguish the fire, its going to be so advanced that it will need water or you will lose a lot more than the garage.

And as for volunteering with a paid dept, it meant that you could expect 20-30 on an intial alarm for fire.

Edited October 18, 2008 by roofsopen

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Roof, if the garage is heavily involved upon arrival so what. At least we can protect the dwelling and those potenially trapped within. In a manpower limited company four members can commence the operation of streching 2 lines. If the first line goes inside to protect the house and the garage is fully involved the engine chauffer can always hit the garage with the deck gun and have a sufficient knockdown until help arrives. I think the homeowner would be ok with losing their garage but still having a house to live in. Anyone can be drawn to the spectacular site of a fully involved situation, but a true professional can see the big picture and deploy the resources where they are most needed and will do the most good initially. Where does the first line go for a vacant bldg fire that is fully involved, treat the garage in the same manner. Life always comes first.

[Guest]

Dont use that FE video as a reference. Its not a good example. Whats going to happen if you do not attempt to atleast knock down the garage? Any house with an attached garage is usually going to be either contemporary or center hall colonial style, meaning stairs in the middle and rooms of to each side, not with stairs at the garage door which usually opens in to a mud room or the kitchen. So you plan on taking a line to the garage door anyway, why not put some water on it. The same guy on the hose is not going to ditch it to make a search. Maybe I am being too agressive or my truck instincts are telling me to go to the fire and have the other guys search. It also matters what time of day, mid day is gonna generate a different response than midnight. To suggest the deck gun is a great idea, provided the engine is in the driveway and has access, but thats a real good scenario that would require a lot of alignment from the planets. Ive used the deck gun at a job, only cause I saw 69 do it once LOL, it worked and it saved the brothers on the balcony and the 10-45 from being crisped up. But in the suburbs its a wing and a prayer.

[Beekman 5]

The New York State Residential Code requires a 45 to 90 minute self-closing fire rated door from a garage to the interior and fire rated sheetrock if the garage attached to the primary dwelling. If the door is left self-closing and the sheetrock isn't penetrated by the homeowner (wires, plumbing, etc) it will contain the fire as experienced by the UnionVale Fire District a few years back when a million dollar plus house under construction had a fire in the garage overnight and it burnt itself out.

Unfortunately if you have a heavy fire load the fire will attack the combustible garage door and extend to the exterior of the building

[Guest]

I love that picture, already vented! Its an Engineman's dream! I think this discussion would go much smoother with pics to add to the scenario.

[markmets415 524]

The New York State Residential Code requires a 45 to 90 minute self-closing fire rated door from a garage to the interior and fire rated sheetrock if the garage attached to the primary dwelling. If the door is left self-closing and the sheetrock isn't penetrated by the homeowner (wires, plumbing, etc) it will contain the fire as experienced by the UnionVale Fire District a few years back when a million dollar plus house under construction had a fire in the garage overnight and it burnt itself out.

Unfortunately if you have a heavy fire load the fire will attack the combustible garage door and extend to the exterior of the building

You are correct, that is the current code and was also addressed in the 1984 Title 9 code as well. Not sure but I do not believe it was before 1984.

Edited October 19, 2008 by markmets415

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

So the Fire engineering training video produced by a 30 year veteran with boatloads of experience is wrong, but fireengineering keeps it on their site for the entire country to see. That makes alot of sense. Who cares where the stairs are, thats not the point here. A line streched through the front door will be between the most likely place fire is going to extend, and the stairs anyway, and will be in a good position to cut off any extension into the dwelling area. If we operate directly into the garage and push fire into the dwelling thats okay right.

[firemoose827 324]

I thought about pictures to add to the size up info, but mainly, I wanted everyone to think about sizing up a fire, and talk about all the different dangers that could be faced at a garage fire, especially an attached garage. I see everyone is thinking, and applying tactics to cover the worst case scenario which is what I was looking for.

More info; This is a basic ranch style home with the garage attached the the Left side of the house ( looking at the house from the street). There is a mud room off the garage that leads to the kitchen/dining area, front door/foyer area, living room, than the far end is where the bed rooms and bath room are located. Its 1 AM on a Wednesday night in November. The house was built in 1995. There is a car in the driveway and the front of the car is burning as well. This is a stick built house with 2X8 rafters, 2X6 exterior stud walls, and the garage has a 2 hour rated sheet rock wall and a 2 hour rated self closing fire door separating the garage and the living area.

[antiquefirelt 994]

As has been said already: First line through the front door of the house. Why? Because it always goes thereon single family dwellings. Yep, "always" as this is the best way to rapidly put a line between the fire and occupants or the main path of egress. In the case of an attached garage fire, this crew must determine quickly if the separation between the house and garage is intact.

If the fire is contained without extension, the first crew stands fast, in a position of safety where they can rapidly put water into the door should it fail. The second line, likely a 2.5" with a smoothbore attacks the fire directly. If possible this may be done through a window in the garage allowing the use of the main door for ventilation. Any form of horizontal vent should be enough to allow for knockdown, as we've written off anyone in the garage and are not immediately entering ourselves. This tactic can and has been used with 6-8 personnel arriving within the first 10 minutes. Depending on first due numbers and the visibility, we might check for the separation/extension without a line and hit the fire with the gun if there was no extension and the wall/door remained firmly intact.(that's asking a lot)

If there is a failure between the house and garage then its just like attacking a residential house fire with a large fireload on the end. Same rules apply. First line goes through the front door, protects egress, occupants and searchers. Crews search the areas of most danger first proceeding away to safer areas, a second line backs up the first and the attack proceeds from the house side toward the garage.

I cannot see advocating attacking the fire in the garage directly if you cannot be certain the separation remains intact. I have seen a FD take a small garage fire and push it right into the house and destroy the whole place because the door to the attached kitchen had failed.

[robert benz 344]

first line thru the front door of my house with an attached garage (split level) make a left looking for the door, there isnt one, you are going to attack this fire thru the garage cus there is only one way in and one way out. But I DO AGREE WITH THE PLACEMENT OF THE FIRST LINE INTO THE STRUCTURE. A SECOND LINE WILL BE THE ONE THAT EXTINGUISHES THE FIRE IN MY GARAGE. Also think about calling for a tow truck if there is a vehicle parked in the garage to remove it, once the fire has darkened down.

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[robert benz 344]

[robert benz 344]