Do any departments run with just Quints?

[JohnnyOV 2]

I remember there being one, just trying remember who it is.

[sr71 1]

St Louis runs the Quint concept

[Guest alsfirefighter]

City of Richmond

[Guest]

Rochester, NY has quints.

They have a nice web site.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Just Quints...I don't think so>

St. Loius claims has 36 companies, 34 have "pumps and aerial ladders" plus 2 heavy rescues. They call all there quints engines, then they had/have? 4 (I think) "heavy ladders" that while quints were actually run as truck companies.

Richmond, VA claims: "The Richmond Department of Fire and Emergency Services is the only fire department in the United States that operates under the Total Quint Concept."

They staff 20 quints, but they also staff 3 heavy-duty rescue/tactical vehicles and "9 rapid-response vehicles for the first-responder/EMS calls and small fires that do not require the Quints"

So quints are all they run except for when they don't (maybe because they are too big and expensive to use on many calls).

They also have a reserve/backup fleet of six engines and three aerial ladder trucks

Rochester, NY has quints. But they run 8 engine companies, 2 Truck companies, 1 rescue company, and 7 quint/midi units. A Quint/Midi company consists of a six person unit (1 officer and 5 firefighters) assigned to 2 vehicles.

It seams to me that If the quint concept were so great, more depts would use it and the depts that do would not need so many other companies.

[JBE 328]

I think he meant non-heavy rescue/haz mat, support type rigs, just the bread and butter stuff.

The closest things you'll probably come to all quints is St. Louis and Richmond. However, from my last out and about, St. Louis is looking to go back to strictly engines and trucks, with one Quint per Battalion.

Seems like you're a bit down on the idea. I'm not too keen on it either. But, what works in some places doesn't always work out here. Or, it's been tried out here and didn't do too well.

Edited October 8, 2008 by JBE

[Lucifer 6]

I'm having an identity crisis...Am I an Engine?? Am I a Truck???

[FirNaTine 370]

A dumb concept, that thank God has never taken off in this area, even though some Chiefs proposed and we're in favor of it. Ridiculous to say the least. Let's reduce manpower to man one rig. Yeah, that makes alot of friggin sense! "What do I do Boss, What do I do?" "Am I an Engine or a Truck today?" Just another form of "Consolidation."

[Guest]

maybe it doesnt work i a paid station but a quint helps in the volunteer serivice.. Would not use quints exclusivly but with 1pc of equipment doing several jobs is smart for the rural areas.

[Bnechis 3,961]

maybe it doesnt work i a paid station but a quint helps in the volunteer serivice.. Would not use quints exclusivly but with 1pc of equipment doing several jobs is smart for the rural areas.

How does it help rural area's....I've yet to see a quint that carries enough water, hose or ground ladders and generally they are too big. They VFD's around here that have been buying them, claim it works for them because they can't get 2 rigs out the door......the problem there is not what rig and what it can do. The problem is no enough firefighters.

[moggie6 54]

Richmond uses the "quint" concept but it's on the chopping block. I was down there a year ago for interviews and asked them about thier quint concept. The Captain in the interview gave me the company line on how great the concept was. But when I asked him who does what when your first due and mom and the three kids are hanging out the window things started to get interesting. At the end of the interview the Captain said they were looking into getting rid of the quints and going back to engines and trucks. Suprise!

So out the door and down the street I go to Richmond Quint #5. At the time they were running a pierce rear mount tower ladder as their quint. But they were getting a mid mount tower ladder in a couple of months. The senior men of the station generally didn't like the Quints. Biggest complaint was the majority of the quints were too big for the city streets. Thus the small engine that was also in the fire house. One senior man that was working the shift related to me how the saying "jack of all trades, masters of none." is true. Half the time positioning is out of place because of the size of the quints coming in.

I'm not sure if Richmond started to go ahead and do away with the quints. Hopefully they did because it seemed like the officers and the firefighters wanted to go back to the engines and trucks.

[comical115 32]

How does it help rural area's....I've yet to see a quint that carries enough water, hose or ground ladders and generally they are too big. They VFD's around here that have been buying them, claim it works for them because they can't get 2 rigs out the door......the problem there is not what rig and what it can do. The problem is no enough firefighters.

I agree with you that a quint will not help staffing issues, but most communities in Northern Westchester apparatus placement is an issue. Some of these driveways are longer then the street I live on, when the first due is an engine and a tanker, there isn't much room for a stick or bucket to get to work. The OIC has to have a really good idea of what he or she has enroute and where they need to be in order for it to work... I can see why some departments feel the quint is a good option for them.

[Guest sfdtruck1medic]

Richmond is going away with the quit concept, and I believe the biggest problem was the cost of all the quints. Since, they were all purchased at the same time now they are all breaking and having problems at the same time. It's costing the city too much to keep them in service because of all of the wear and tear they have put on them running medical calls day in and day out. They also have a new chief that seems to be progressive and trying to make changes.

Hope that helps..

[antiquefirelt 994]

Richmond is going away with the quit concept... They also have a new chief that seems to be progressive and trying to make changes.

We've come full circle. Now the chief who calls for the "old way" is progressive!!! The irony is perfect and I can't say I don't agree. Quints make sense in far fewer cases than people will admit.

IMO: The fireground is far too dynamic, to allow any first due aerial, that may be the only aerial within reach of the building, to be anchored in position by interior hoselines. Those who run quints first due like to say they always place them right, but most of us know that's a pipe dream.(pun intended)

[Guest FFNick]

IMO: The fireground is far too dynamic, to allow any first due aerial, that may be the only aerial within reach of the building, to be anchored in position by interior hoselines. Those who run quints first due like to say they always place them right, but most of us know that's a pipe dream.(pun intended)

I agree with ya antique. This is always the big problem with quints when they are the first out and used for both roles at once. If you don't get the placement right, you now have charged hose on the ground, and you're in trouble if your aerial placement is wrong.

As far as an "ALL" quint system goes, from what I understand, the confusion comes from dispatch. Companies need to know where the incident is, and how that dictates their response mode (truck company versus engine company). If on Box 1234 you are assigned as an engine, then you are an engine, no need to worry about placement for the aerial. If on Box 4321 you are assigned as a truck - you'd best get the best positioning possible as your truck role would dictate.

In my opinion, it might be a good concept, but it has a lot of inherent problems - the jurisdiction has to literally "buy" into the concept - replace all the rigs, be willing to maintain and replace them as needed. Your dispatchers have to be savvy and fluid, and understand the roles and assign the companies appropriately. ALL the firefighters/officers/MPOs/Chauffers, etc. must be cross trained as they wear all hats all the time, and understand how their assigned roles will change from alarm to alarm. Initially, the union (if there is one) has to accept the program, and see if it is in the best interest of its members (this could entail a reduction in manpower, fewer bosses, fewer staffed comapnies, etc.) Normally mayors and career chiefs only last so long, so the time and resources necessary to implement such a program could certainly doom anyones career.

Those factors may be too much for most departments to overcome, so that is probably a big reason why it isn't very successful.

Edited October 9, 2008 by FFNick

[Alarmroom 0]

The Towns of Manchester CT and West Hartford, CT operate the "Quint" Concept.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Nick and Antique I am also with you on many of your thoughts. The quint concept comes down to coordination and strong policies and to further add to the Richmond mix, when they first started the concept they had some troubles but as time went on they got much better at it. I wouldn't just simply call it a dumb concept. A form of consolidation perhaps but the concept in itself has some merits.

In regard to the jack of all trades master of none, comment, I really don't get that either. Perhaps that senior man was tied to being function based for so long he couldn't adapt to being skill based. But the way I see it is that no matter which operation you were going to be assigned per policy or dispatch or arrival, hose stretches, fire attack, search, ventilation, etc. are all basic firefighters skills we should know and be proficient at.

Also aerial positioning is a thinking man's game. The front of the building is not always the best place to be and I had that argument with a "senior" man when I positioned my aerial on the B side of a house on a corner, where there were no powerlines which allowed me to use my stick for vertical ventilation. He insisted that the front of the building is the only place the first aerial should go. So I take some things with a grain of salt for those stuck in their ways and/or opinions. The thing to note is my department only has 1 aerial so if you don't position it right, you may be waiting for a bit for the 2nd due to arrive.

[antiquefirelt 994]

Depending on the size and operations of the FD the "jack of all trades, master of none" can be a large problem or somewhat insignificant factor. Those FD's staffed such that they can utilize traditional Engine/Truck concepts should reap the benefit of dedicated crews. It's hard to argue that companies with less responsibilities will be better at those they do have. On the other hand, if we were inclined to buy a quint (not at all reality) our crews wouldn't see much change as they already rotate between apparatus due to EMS volume and putting in time on the bus.

[TSull 33]

You also have to remember that many city departments that went the way of the "quint" did so to cut manpower, uhhh, I mean save taxpayer dollars. Certain mid west cities were able to cut 30-40% of their dept's assigned personnel thru retirements/attrition and never replaced them.

Are those departments that are considering going back to the traditional "engine-truck" set-up going to staff the apparatus properly? I highly doubt it.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

A little off topic but two St. Louis quints acting as engine companies crashed, article here:

http://firefighterclosecalls.com/fullstory.php?73357

[dadbo46 50]

FDNY experimented with the concept before it was called a quint.

Back in the mid-70's, during the NYC financial crisis, a few engine and ladder companies that were historically slow, were combined and the "combo" unit was born.

The one that I remember was on City Island when E-70 and Ladder-53 were put together and, hence, the manpower was reduced. The rig, on a Mack CF chasis with a 2-speed automatic transmission, had a 50 foot light duty aerial mounted within what would normally be the hose bed. There was a pre-piped ladder pipe with a remote controlled fog-hog nozzle. It carried no more ladders than a typical engine (14' roof ladder and a 24' extension).

The rig was removed from service in the mid-80's and was subsequently sold to the Lake Carmel FD who performed a minor refurb on it and experimented with the ladder concept for a few years before selling it.

The quint, while an interesting concept, is, in reality, nothing more than a device to save on manpower. In a carear department, less is bad. In a volunteer department with hydrants, its a way to get the first rig with multiple capabilities (albeit no very good capabilities) out the door with, hopefully, more rigs to follow.

JBE might be able to supply more info on the FDNY combo units.

[Remember585 815]

I thought St. Louis was dumping the Quint concept?

And doesn't Syracuse use Telesquirts or something similar instead of traditional pumpers?

[JBE 328]

In the 70's the FDNY had Squrts. One of the articulating squrt booms was removed and replaced with the 50 foot telesqurt. This rig acted as Engine 70 for a number of years until removed from service. Dadbo can refresh my memory here, but it was purchased and refurbed by Lake Carmel in 1987, just before I joined the explorers and was designated 17-5-1. Which reminds me if any of you LCFD guys can get that picture out of the display case, scan it and e-mail it to me, I'd be appreciative. My fondest memories of 17-5-1 were of I think Cris Dellaripa sitting on the end of the extended boom over the lake behind the old firehouse holding a pike pole with a large hook on a piece of line, and operating at the Seavey Plaza fire on Route 52 in 1991, pretty much pi$$ing on what was left of that building.

As far as the Combination Fire Companies that Dadbo mentioned was a two piece company(Engine and TL) CFC 121, 131, and 151. They were formerly E-70/TL-53, E-151/TL-76, and E-311/TL-158. Mind you that's all I know about them since they were organized I think before I was born and disbanded while I was still in diapers. It was one officer and full staffing. I'll have to go look at my Calderone book for more info. It was in the same vein as the LA CITY and LA County Light Force concept. 2 rigs, 1 boss, and 5 or 6 guys. Now out there, the light forces are considered a truck company, with the engine being the "Pump" or "Tender" for the truck. LA County, with the exception of Light Force 82, uses an Engine and a tillered Quint. LA CITY has an engine and a tillered aerial.

In LA County, if the quint goes OOS, they may get an aerial spare and still respond as a light force, and if the engine goes out, they respond with the Quint and are designated as "Quint XXX"

(Seth or Duane, please jump in to add or correct me as you're the resident SoCal experts)

Now, with St. Louis, I explained this in my last out and about thread. The rigs are quints, but are designated as Engines. They have the X amount of rigs with the larger, heavy duty aerials, but they are designated as Ladders. As it was explained to me by the guys in St. Louis, the second due Engine on any reported structural fire assignment is going in for truck work. The third due engine is actually going to act as the second due engine. As someone said before, talk about an identity crisis. St. Louis is also going to start phasing out the quints with the exception of one per battalion, going back to strictly Engines and Trucks.

Edited October 12, 2008 by JBE

[Guest Rogue Rescue]

Would the trucks in these links be classed as quints?

http://www.fire-engine-photos.com/picture/number9201.asp

http://203.111.72.30/penrith/ap_detail.html

They are big and carry alot of gear.

[Guest FFNick]

Here is a Link to some information on the definition, etc. of what is considered a "Quint".

Edited October 18, 2008 by FFNick