Response Safety - why don't we change?

[helicopper 1,050]

Here's the "hypothetical" scenario: a fire alarm is accidentally tripped by a child in a private residence. The alarm company dutifully notifies the FD and calls back the homeowner who confirms it was accidental and no emergency exists. This is conveyed to the dispatch center by the alarm company and by the first arriving PD unit (who was not parked in front of a hydrant). Despite this information, four pieces of apparatus and two chiefs responded all with lights and siren.

Given the information at hand from both the homeowner and PD, why not respond "cold" to this call? I realize that the FD won't accept cancellations from anyone but why put everyone at risk by running hot unnecessarily? If the first due engine or chief responded hot I'd understand but to have the 3rd and 4th vehicles arriving even after the first due and chief seems like an unneccesary risk.

We've discussed driving issues ad nauseum before but I felt compelled to ask why we still run lights and sirens to calls like this one and why won't the FD accept cancellations enroute or even before they're on the road?

[xchief2x 79]

I agree with you 150%. My dept policy states that on automatic alarms only the 1st due engine responds emergency mode and the balance of the assignment is to respond non emergency. I can't or won't speak for all departments I just know what my departent is supposed to do. After all the police don't respond to burglar alarms emergency mode do they?

[Monty 35]

200 years of tradition - unimpeded by progress.

Different (Wrong) priorities?

[antiquefirelt 994]

If the scenario happened in our first due, we would run the engine in cold and everyone else would return to quarters. The addition of the LEO changes things a little for me. We will not take the word of the alarm co. w/o verification that an actual RP is on scene. Maybe the guy that lit the fire stands by for the phone call? That being said, any report of a false alarm casues us to reduce our response. The duty officer has the choice of:

1. continuing the first due piece "hot" and reducing the rest to "cold" (often this is for high life hazards occupancies)

2. reduce all units to "cold" and continue (if the report of the false alarm little or no detail)

3. reduce all to "cold" and return all but the engine. (most common, when false report is followed by details as to the cause)

In the end, an engine always checks out the call, something many neighboring FD's don't do! We also often find that employees of many businesses have no clue as to the difference between smoke and heat detectors or evenlook at the alarm panel. We have had employees report a false call from smoking in the bathroom, when only heats are present or reporting a pull station tripped by a child when a smoke detector was the culprit.

[Remember585 815]

For me, I like to keep all companies going until one of us is on scene and can confirm what is / isn't needed. For example, we send 1 Engine, 1 Quint and 1 Rescue on residential alarms. I'll keep the Engine coming in Emergency mode and all else in non-emergency mode until someone confirms it is false. Once on scene we can determine that the Quint and Rescue can take up.

Some like to cancel rigs before being on scene, I won't. I say this because if I get there and it was food on the stove with a good amount of smoke, I may need the fans on the Truck, and if I cancelled them now I have to retone them, which is foolish to me.

[abaduck 123]

In some parts of Scotland they've gone to the opposite extreme; a standard residential AFA, absent any other indications of a problem, gets one rig, non-emergency. This is a career dept.

Now I'm not convinced, I think that approach has the potential to come badly unstuck some day (although bear in mind that the average Scottish house or apartment is a lot less combustible than most of what we have to deal with - most are what we would call ordinary construction, or else type 1 fire resistant) but it's not entirely crazy.

Mike

[FFPCogs 863]

I'm more or less with 585 here....until QUALIFIED fire service personnel are on scene to make a determination expect the worst. That's what we're here for, so to me any inconvenience incured on us by responding comes with the territory.

Cogs

[antiquefirelt 994]

I'm more or less with 585 here....until QUALIFIED fire service personnel are on scene to make a determination expect the worst. That's what we're here for, so to me any inconvenience incured on us by responding comes with the territory.

Cogs

While I understand the concept, given today's litigious society, I'd be careful going code three to a call where a LEO or other "competent" person reports no fire. Some gets hurt or killed en route? Major legal action. This could easily be equated to running code three to a non-life threatening EMS call, which in at least one case I know of caused career ending legal action. As for responding cold, as I said before no call goes unanswered by at least an engine (non-emergency)

Edited September 24, 2008 by antiquefirelt

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I'm more or less with 585 here....until QUALIFIED fire service personnel are on scene to make a determination expect the worst. That's what we're here for, so to me any inconvenience incured on us by responding comes with the territory.

Cogs

At the cost of over 25% of firefighter fatalities every year in the responding/returning category I can't say I agree with your comment as a blanket statement, but with that said I think your in tune more directly with 585's post then your post implies. In addition to Chris's very common sense thought and post, V & T Section 1104 says that we are only granted the exemptions of emergency response when responding to a true emergency. A type of alarm that 99.9% of the time that is nothing in nature to me doesn't categorize as something that the risk of life or loss of limb due to the actions of the apparatus operator will be reduced. Why send over a million dollars worth of equipment hot, including in many areas 3 chiefs cars, throw in any number you want for deputy chiefs, etc, risk accidents, major liability and that's not including the rebound accidents of other vehicles we cause. You don't see every other emergency dicisplines running hot to every friggin thing. 585 did hit the nail on the head that units shouldn't be cancelled prior to arriving (you shouldn't make decisions when not there either but that is another debate) but you can take the info given and by whom and make a calculated decision. I came from a county system where we would often just send in the 1st due unit to check out call backs by the alarm companies, PD updates etc. All other units who would be coming from a distance would be cancelled. If you needed them once you got there...they were on the road they can come back in.

So send in the first due unit hot and then upgrade if needed. But its ok lets stay in our little mindset were in and you can be like the FAA...have a catastrophic accident, kill someone or get your a** sued off then it will change. No one said anyone is inconvienced by the response...the type of response is at issue and risk vs. management applies to every call.

[khas143 13]

After all the police don't respond to burglar alarms emergency mode do they?

Interesting topic... Most PD's respond "hot" for a burglar alarm but as for the PD side of the house (concerning continuation of response), I have been cancelled once the homeowner talks to the alarm company and supplies the required password. If that happens, not only do we not continue going in hot, we stop responding all together. My question is why is the FD protocol for fire alarms any different this any different that the PD protocol for burglar alarms. (Set off in error is set off in error on both the PD and FD side of the house).

It also appears there are significant differences between various FD's response protocols. Maybe this is something to standardize across the board??

[Beekman 5]

If you run lights and sirens to a reported "non-emergency" and any of those vehicles gets in an accident and the lawyers find out you were notified it was a "non-emergency" call, good luck and kiss all your stuff good bye and prepare for your life to be destroyed.

Absolutely send the equipment in no lights and no siren. Nothing against PD or Security but most are not trained in fire alarm systems. I don't even trust some of my own folks. Heck most aparatus can use a good run around the block anyway, just take your time. FAMILIARIZATION!!!!!!

[Beekman 5]

Most residents I run into understand the security side of their alarm system very well as they use it daily but are completely clueless about the fire alarm side. Most can't even tell you where the detectors are or how to reset the system.

[Guest paramedico987]

The question of accepting or not accepting cancellations is one of "WHAT IF'S" and liability prevention. I understand why folks would rather see for themselves that the house isn't on fire or whatever.

So, I'll focus away from the question of WHETHER we should respond or IF we should excercize our authority to circumvent regular traffic patterns and regulations.

The issue most important is how we drive when we do use that authority. As a general practice we should operate our respective vehicles with the same degree of caution and respect for the physical forces in play regardless of the anticipated situation at our intended destination.

There are several components that I have identified as important to safe emergency response:

1. Go slow! Driving fast doesn't get you there much quicker. Our chief advantage to the lights and siren is the abilty to cut in line at traffic lights and stop signs.

2. Know where you're going! Don't you feel like such a tool when you race across town and then have to circle the block again because you missed the street. Proper dispatch information is critical here. To optimise response dispatch needs to include "high and low" cross streets and should be able to provide directions upon request.

3. It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you... EVERYBODY is out to get you! Anticipate that every other car will do exactly the opposite of what you want them to. Despite the extreme personal and financial costs of traffic collisions our country REFUSES to develop more stringent requirements for training and testing of drivers... it would seem that the average driver has no idea what they should do when an emergency vehicle approaches.

4. Make noise. It's absolutely amazing what kind of difference can be made with a loud siren vs. the cheap crap that comes with most vehicle packages, but it's even more amazing how much easier it is to navagate the roadways if we use the siren constantly instead of just when we approach intersections or feel like we need to get someone's attention.

5. This intersection needs more air horn! A REAL airhorn is an intimidating thing. I guess people think that something big is about to crush them... but most importantly the siren still continues in the background rather than being interupted which just adds to another driver's sense of "get the hell out of the way."

6. ALWAYS REMEMBER, IF YOU DON'T ARRIVE SAFELY YOU CAN'T HELP ANYBODY!

[EJS1810 7]

Maybe the guy that lit the fire stands by for the phone call?

Could someone please cite a real example of where the person setting a building on fire has waited in the building for the alarm company to call back and cancel the fire department. This is the mother of all urban legends of the fire service.

If you are told that the alarm company spoke to someone on the premisis who has said there is no fire and you continue to respond all equiptment in full emergency response mode and an accident occurs, you deserve to sit before a jury of your peers.

[antiquefirelt 994]

If you are told that the alarm company spoke to someone on the premisis who has said there is no fire and you continue to respond all equiptment in full emergency response mode and an accident occurs, you deserve to sit before a jury of your peers.

I can't cite an actual example of the arsonist answering the phone and I agree that you shouldn't continue with lights and sirens. This is merely the excuse we give when we tell building owners that unlike the PD we will not ever completely disregard an alarm activation.

Last weekend three local FD's were toned for a reported structure fire, during the response a call to dispatch said it was a smoke condition on the second floor, no fire and they were all set. The hometown Chief canceled his auto aid only to arrive and find a fire on the second floor. Re-toned for the original crews. Did turn out to be very minor, but it proves hazard of trusting the building owner understand the fire alarms system or fire in general.I can document tons of examples where the residents or the person who answered the alarm companies call had no idea what had set of the alarm. No raging fires, but a few faulty detectors and many homeowners who needed help understanding their alarm systems.

The reason we don't cancel like PD regardless of verification of ownership is that most don't understand their system. Also they don't go off for no reason. A PD alarm is often someone not getting to the keypad in time or forgetting to shut off the system. A fire alarm system activates when detection devices activate. Most activate for a reason, and as I said before most owners don't really know why. For us its a good chance to have a positive interaction with members of the community.

[Guest]

Just a little perspective here, at my career agency, I have LEO's (yes thats plurel) who can't tell the difference between a power co wire and a cable tv wire at a reported wires down call. So with that in mind I am a little hessitant to totally rely on the PD's initial report. However, given the above scenerio, 3-4 rigs running hot is a little over kill.

[grumpyff 1,159]

I would have all apparatus continue in in, with only the firstdue running 'hot'. I have seen a call for a possible car fire, where PD got on scene and reported no fire, overheat only. Our chief got on scene, to find the flames just starting to come oput from under the hood. If you make a mistake with a burglar alarm, the consequence is somebody's possession just got stolen, which can be replaced. On a fire alarm, on the other hand, if there is a fire, now it will only be bigger and hotter, with more spread.

[helicopper 1,050]

I can't cite an actual example of the arsonist answering the phone and I agree that you shouldn't continue with lights and sirens. This is merely the excuse we give when we tell building owners that unlike the PD we will not ever completely disregard an alarm activation.

Last weekend three local FD's were toned for a reported structure fire, during the response a call to dispatch said it was a smoke condition on the second floor, no fire and they were all set. The hometown Chief canceled his auto aid only to arrive and find a fire on the second floor. Re-toned for the original crews. Did turn out to be very minor, but it proves hazard of trusting the building owner understand the fire alarms system or fire in general.I can document tons of examples where the residents or the person who answered the alarm companies call had no idea what had set of the alarm. No raging fires, but a few faulty detectors and many homeowners who needed help understanding their alarm systems.

The reason we don't cancel like PD regardless of verification of ownership is that most don't understand their system. Also they don't go off for no reason. A PD alarm is often someone not getting to the keypad in time or forgetting to shut off the system. A fire alarm system activates when detection devices activate. Most activate for a reason, and as I said before most owners don't really know why. For us its a good chance to have a positive interaction with members of the community.

Now we're talking about different scenarios. The situation that I started the thread about was a MANUAL activation of the fire alarm by a child (ooh, what's that red button do?), not a system activation by some other unknown cause and certainly not an inside smoke condition.

I'm more or less with 585 here....until QUALIFIED fire service personnel are on scene to make a determination expect the worst. That's what we're here for, so to me any inconvenience incured on us by responding comes with the territory.

Cogs

OK, so you won't believe me when I say that there is no fire and to respond accordingly but when I say extrication is needed or its fully involved you will believe me. There's a double standard if I've ever heard one. So what will it take to actually get all of us on the same team for a change? Do we need to train together, work together, or what so that we will actually believe each other when we give an initial report?

And for all these statements about the first due running hot and all others running cold, what country are we all talking about? I never see that - all I see are lights and all I hear are sirens! Time to start practicing what we all preach.

Stay safe!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

I guess it depends on where you work and live for PD with alarms as well. Most of my experience between personnel and areas where I work is panic/hold up alarms get a hot response and other activations get cold.

As far as the mother of all urban legends...I do know of 1 department that the alarm company advised them that the homeowner cancelled FD response. So they did...the entire response. Hence they went back later and went to work for quite some time. Never hurts to have at least one unit take a look. Apparantly the homeowner was at work when the alarm went off and told the alarm company not to worry about it.