Raid puts fire company out of business: Colwyn PA

[Monty 35]

Came across this info

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=...&id=6132891

"Do you want a fire company or do you want a neighborhood bar," said assistant chief Brendan Patterson.

About 20 or so volunteer firefighters resigned after the State Police Liquor Control Enforcement Unit raided the fire hall Thursday night amid allegations an illegal bar was being operated inside. Investigators hauled away liquor and several video poker games

......

"Until some type of agreement can be reached, we're going to be out of service," said former fire chief Rich Guerra.

For now, the Darby and Collingdale Fire Departments are responding to calls in Colwyn. The investigation is ongoing.

And ...

http://www.firerescue1.com/volunteer/artic...-to-stay-alive/

COLWYN, Pa. — The Colwyn Fire Company No. 1 has sued the Borough of Colwyn in the latest twist in a dispute that has divided the fire department and split the community.

At issue is Mayor John Fitzgerald's attempt to veto a decision by Borough Council in May revoking the 103-year-old fire company's standing.

Borough officials say the mayor did not follow the proper procedure for filing a veto. The fire company claims in its suit that the mayor acted properly.

.....

Reed said the Colywn Fire Company has 250 members, with about 15 who would fight fires. He said the organization voted over the summer to ban alcohol from the premises.

He said discussions with the borough were "frozen."

The township has an agreement with nearby Darby Fire Company No. 1 for emergency services.

Pray said the borough was currently in discussions with a new firefighting group, the Colwyn Borough Volunteer Fire Company, and will vote to recognize it in October. That company is made up of some of the firefighters who resigned and new volunteers, according to Pray.

This could never happen here could it ?????

[markmets415 524]

Well I guess it depends on if you want to belong to a social club or a fire department, all departs that operate with these types of items in their firehouse realize the risk involved.

For those members here that know me, know how I feel about it.

If you went into your local plumbing or heating and cooling business and saw their employees in the break room tipping a few I am sure it isn't someone that you would want come to your house to conduct work.

Biggest problem is the ones that use the room can't seem to stay in it when the pager goes off, you want a beer go home or to the local bar.

OK, let it fly, let the bashing begin.

[x129K 1,393]

Well I guess it depends on if you want to belong to a social club or a fire department, all departs that operate with these types of items in their firehouse realize the risk involved.

For those members here that know me, know how I feel about it.

If you went into your local plumbing or heating and cooling business and saw their employees in the break room tipping a few I am sure it isn't someone that you would want come to your house to conduct work.

Biggest problem is the ones that use the room can't seem to stay in it when the pager goes off, you want a beer go home or to the local bar.

OK, let it fly, let the bashing begin.

Spot on...

I LOVE beer and LOOOOOOOOOOOVEEEEEEEE Drinking beer......but I know where to draw the line...

[INIT915 1,119]

"..Colywn Fire Company has 250 members, with about 15 who would fight fires..."

Fifteen out of 250 are active firefighters? That's 6% of their membership who are active firefighters!

[Guest]

Fifteen out of 250 are active firefighters? That's 6% of their membership who are active firefighters!

That's what I was looking at. That's a social club...

[Goose 188]

Fifteen out of 250 are active firefighters? That's 6% of their membership who are active firefighters!

And to think these are the people are our lovely legislatures are fighting for to get health insurance, gas money and all those other lovely perks...

While the rest of us hump all day for next to nothing....

What a bunch of malarkey.

Edited September 23, 2008 by Goose

[ex-commish 490]

If they are resigning because of that than hell with them...who needs them. They should not be allowed to join anywhere else.

[abaduck 123]

If they are resigning because of that than hell with them...who needs them. They should not be allowed to join anywhere else.

As I read it, the active, committed firefighters resigned, and left the 'good old boys' to their social club...

Mike

[Goose 188]

Fifteen out of 250 are active firefighters? That's 6% of their membership who are active firefighters!

What a pathetic display of a dept. And as someone asked if it could happen here, I would think that municipalities would take a better look at their fire dept's, and how many "firefighters" they really have, and where the money goes If you want a social club then have one, don't try and hide as a fire company. Alcohol has its place, and its not at a fire or any other job.

You would think that's the case. But, it's not. Very few municipalities in Westchester have adequate Fire and EMS protection. One would think with all we pay in taxes we would be at the cutting edge but we couldn't be farther from it. I've always found it funny that some skell crack head can get a bus faster than many tax paying westchester residents.

[exmrvfc 0]

Firehouse has an additional article that states the members who have resigned are already forming another fire company. They expect the borough to designate the new fire company as th eone to provide the fire protection since they are the active firefighters. I would be pretty pissed if a a bunch of "freeloaders" were only hanging out to drink and gamble. Hopefully the new Company will set the correct tone where its firefighting first and socializing is done second.

http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/a...46&id=61034

[RPM3311 3]

These guys see a lot of fire... well they did.

Another funny story about this Co. they one time rolled an engine, used airbags to get it back on all fours and backed it back into their station like nothing happened.

[antiquefirelt 994]

While touring PA, NY and NJ we ran into a few of these type places. I'm not saying it's a smart thing, but there's more to it than a drinking club. In one PA FD we went to they had a full operating bar in the basement, with all the video poker, pool tables (yes many!) and a two lane bowling alley. The place was pretty busy for a mid week mid-day as far as most bars go. The difference was that it was a "private club", you had to be a member and had to pay to be a member. There was no entrance to the apparatus floor or really any part of the actual FD without an responsible party getting a key and letting you in. The ex-chief who showed us around explained they had a 2 or 300 person roster with maybe 25 actual firefighters. But the bar is how they funded the FD. It's like an Elks Club. They have strict rules on drinking and reporting to the station for calls. This place is in a pretty downtrodden part of a PA city where bake sales and chicken BBQ's wouldn't fund crap. BTW, the building is fully private and they received no tax dollars, according toe ht guy telling us the deal.

So, while I don't think FD's and alcohol should be in the same building, one can see that the possibility exists that a FD that has a bar doesn't mean they're necessarily irresponsible. Our guys often go out for beers after drills at a local bar and as long as they know not to come to calls? It doesn't seem much different. Anyone know anything about Hillcrest FD in Rockland Co.?

[Bnechis 3,961]

Fifteen out of 250 are active firefighters? That's 6% of their membership who are active firefighters!

What a pathetic display of a dept. And as someone asked if it could happen here, I would think that municipalities would take a better look at their fire dept's, and how many "firefighters" they really have, and where the money goes.....

I can only think of about 10% of the municipalities in Westchester that might have even the slightest clue as to how many "firefighters" they have.

1) they don't care

2) they don't want to know

3) we bought all those expensive trucks, they must have people to drive them...right?

4) How many depts are required to produce an annual report to the community/municipality & how many actually do?

5) How many depts are honest with themselves as to how many members they have and how many are actually "firefighters"

I know many depts in Westchester that have claimed to have X firefighters but, less than 5% show up on average to calls.

I know depts. that have to request multiple departments mutual aid for simple room & content fires, guess they dont have the members they want the community to believe they have.

I know depts. that can't get an engine and truck out for a call, so lets buy a quint, then we need 1/2 the numbers to respond (not that we will be able to do anything when we get there).

Municipalities have the blinders on. Hopefully you wont need the services that they hope they have.

[jack10562 414]

No pun intended, but those are some sobering thoughts....

[FD36 4]

No pun intended, but those are some sobering thoughts....

Sobering but unfortunately true. Seems to be the norm around here.......

[FFPCogs 863]

These types of incidents and the continued availability of alcohol in some (or many) volunteer firehouses is one of, if not the largest factor in the perception that volunteer firefighters in general are unprofessional. A definite case of a few bad apples.

While the social aspect of any VFD is an important part of that organization, IMO it should take a far second place to operational matters.

If having a bar is of that much importance to a department or group of departments either for social interaction or finances then they should rent or build a social hall removed from the firehouse and it's property. Nobody says don't drink...just don't do it at the firehouse.

And I shouldn't have to say this but I will.....Never, ever under ANY circumstances drink and respond..you're not that important.

Just my $.02

Cogs

[IzzyEng4 427]

I've been following this since the news broke out months back. I see the problem as the "social" members were running the firehouse and not the active members. That is what seems to be the problem here. At no time should social members be running a fire company and dictating its operations. Also shame on those "former" active members who felt the social aspect was more important than firefighting(if there were). What were they thinking????? The organization was chartered and incorporated as a firefighting unit and they broke it, they were not chartered a social club! Don't get me wrong, there is a time and place for socialization but if your duty is to protect and serve the public, that comes first.

I wonder how that company's administrative structure was. Were the social members being given a vote??? That shouldn't happen, they can voice their concerns at a meeting but social members should not have a vote as they are not the heart and soul of a volunteer firefighting unit.

I think all of us agree this was something that might have had the best of intentions years ago but a bunch of bad apples took it way to far and made a total mockery of the fire company. I'm glad that those who had left are forming a new fire company and I hope they don't do anything in spite but focus on protecting the area in which they serve.

[helicopper 1,050]

For a State Liquor Authority to get involved, the issue may have also been non-members drinking there. That would probably make it a bar and not a club in the eyes of the State (wasn't there an article about something like this in the Albany area posted here?) and make it an issue.

To have 250 members but only 15 firefighters suggests to me that they lost sight of their primary focus and can use this as a wakeup call.

[abaduck 123]

To have 250 members but only 15 firefighters suggests to me that they lost sight of their primary focus and can use this as a wakeup call.

As far as I can see they're way beyond a wakeup call - they're gone, they're done, they're through, they're history - all the active members have left, and formed a new company, which will actually be focused on firefighting. The 'old' company is now what it sounds like it had been for a long time, a purely social organisation with no pretense of being a fire company.

Mike

Edited September 24, 2008 by abaduck

[FFPCogs 863]

Maybe the wake up call should be to those who continue to think drinking and firefighting belong in the same place. It's really pretty simple...If there's an in service fire truck sitting in your building, do yourself, your department and most importantly your community a favor...GET RID OF THE BAR !

Cogs

[AFS1970 504]

This brings up the related topic that is a pet peeve of mine, why do Fire Departments let in members for any reason that are not firefighters? I know all the arguments, this guy is an accountant and can do our books, this one is a mechanic and can fix the trucks, but then it quickly devolves into this one is a friend of so and so, and that one is somebody's cousins best friends coworker. a** that to the Veterans and Exempt members who have put in their time but now want to retire, and you have the potential for this scenario we are all reading about in PA, where the non active members outnumber the active ones. What can the 6% really do against the other 94% in a vaguely democratic meeting?

[Monty 35]

This brings up the related topic that is a pet peeve of mine, why do Fire Departments let in members for any reason that are not firefighters? I know all the arguments, this guy is an accountant and can do our books, this one is a mechanic and can fix the trucks, but then it quickly devolves into this one is a friend of so and so, and that one is somebody's cousins best friends coworker. a** that to the Veterans and Exempt members who have put in their time but now want to retire, and you have the potential for this scenario we are all reading about in PA, where the non active members outnumber the active ones. What can the 6% really do against the other 94% in a vaguely democratic meeting?

I think there are places for non-firefighters to help out. In fact there is a whole program to do that http://www.firecorps.org/ - from the site:

Community members can make a difference for their local fire and EMS department. Fire Corps helps departments build more capacity by connecting them to community volunteers who can assist in a variety of non-emergency roles. Explore our site to to learn more about Fire Corps, set up a Fire Corps program, find existing programs, and read about how community members and departments nationwide are benefiting from Fire Corps.

[FFPCogs 863]

What can the 6% really do against the other 94% in a vaguely democratic meeting?

Well one thing is what they apparently did...start a FIRE DEPARTMENT and leave the social club behind. Another may be to work with local/state government to develop statutes basically outlawing alcohol in the firehouse. There's plenty of precedence for this route as well as insurance/liability issues that the penny pinchers love to cite to squeeze departments...maybe it's time to use them to our advantage.

Another may be (depending on by laws of course) to elect officers with the balls enough to stand up to the "social" clique and simply remove the problem.

There's a story I heard here about a Company of one of the valley Dept.'s that on elction night voted in a Capt. who, with like minded firefighting oriented members, went down stairs with saws and tools and physically removed the bar...that very night !!

Cogs

I have to agree that there is a place for non-firefighters in any fire department, and they should have a say in the non-firefighting aspects of the running of that department. But alcohol in the firehouse IS a firefighting related issue as there is potential for misuse, and possible legal ramifications of serving alcohol which could effect the department as a whole.

Edited September 24, 2008 by FFPCogs