Federal traffic vest law

[DFD801 0]

I agree with many of you that these vests aren't the solution. People don't hit us because we aren't visible enough in our turnout gear. They hit us because they aren't watching the road in front of them... they're too busy trying to get a look at the action going on. I was at a wreck not too long ago on I84 and had a driver leaning over the passenger seat trying to take a picture of the scene with his camera phone through the back window, while driving. No amount of reflective material would've prevented this moron from hitting someone because he wasn't even looking in front of him.

Sure closing the road is the safest option but rarely done on busy roads. The best thing to do is to gain control of the traffic well before the scene and merge them into a slow moving single file, while using apparatus to protect the scene. Atleast this way they'll hopefully hit the car in front of them instead of one of us. Stay safe and watch out for the idiots.

[x129K 1,393]

I have a question - playing devil's advocate, and because I KNOW myself, I most likely will not wear one...

What consequences are there for NOT wearing a vest, and I do not mean on the departmental SOP level...

[RDUNC67 1]

I have a question - playing devil's advocate, and because I KNOW myself, I most likely will not wear one...

What consequences are there for NOT wearing a vest, and I do not mean on the departmental SOP level...

This is a federal law, the consequences will be for the FD when someone get's hurt (or worse) and the investigations start, same goes for physicals, apparatus & SCBA maintenance etc... The new NFPA 1901 states you must have a vest for every seated position, does not mean anyone will wear them, there is no harm in wearing Hi-Vis clothing especially for those not in turnouts.

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

Link to pictures on firefighterclosecalls.com showing the difference between the Hi-Vis vest and normal turn out gear under a few varied conditions:

http://firefighterclosecalls.com/fullstory.php?76636

[markmets415 524]

This morning, in Anne Arundel County (Maryland) an engine company was blocking a crash scene in I-295 near I-195. The road conditions were really bad with black ice being a problem as well. Several civilian vehicles, losing control, struck fire apparatus as well as a medic unit. A civilian in a car was tragically killed as a result of that medic unit "struck" crash. No fire or EMS personnel were injured. One of their other engines was also struck at a separate scene but no one was hurt. More reminders of how "we" need to expect this to happen-and manage our personnel at a scene. Block and protect.

DELAWARE CITY UPDATE:

As you are aware, Delaware City (MD) Fire Company EMT Michelle Smith, while performing duties on an MVC scene on DuPont Hwy, was struck by a vehicle. She was treated and transported to the hospital with serious traumatic injuries. She is in stable condition and was conscious and talking with the DCFC Chief while at the scene and during transport. She was taken into surgery early this morning and was in surgery for approximately 4 hours, with a 2 hour recovery period at the minimum. Her family is currently at the hospital with her, along with a contingent of Officers and Members of the DCFC. Updates to follow as we wish Michelle a rapid recovery.

posted with permission from the secretlist

More reasons to close the road!!!

[DOC22 1]

Thoughts and prayers go out for Michelle's full and speedy recovery.

[abaduck 123]

I have a question - playing devil's advocate, and because I KNOW myself, I most likely will not wear one...

Well who says you get any choice? It's down to the chief, surely? If you're ordered to wear one, you had better wear it!

Mike

[x129K 1,393]

Well who says you get any choice? It's down to the chief, surely? If you're ordered to wear one, you had better wear it!

Mike

Absolutley! After talking to a respected Past Chief both here and in person, I have changed my tune...a little..

However, in some areas, there are a majority of members at calls, including officers and Cheifs, that do not even wear PPE, or maybe might throw a coat on...maybe just the hitches....it happens more often than it should.

I, however, wear full PPE all of the time...I LIKE wearing my gear...I HATE feeling or being unprepared or unprotected...

So...would I get my balls busted for being in full PPE minus a vest as opposed to the "other guys" wearing street clothes?

Edited December 21, 2008 by x129K

[markmets415 524]

Glad to see the photos from Brewster and Rombout, alot of vests placed into service and I believe in both cases the roads were closed.

[Guest]

Mark I agree close the roads let people wait if they have to!!!!! Dan as far as ppe lets hope that changes fast!!!

[Guest]

I was driving past the scene of a car fire in the daytime recently, and the firefighters who had on vests were MUCH more noticeable than those without. Might I add the firefighters without the vests on were all in SCBA. Now if only the officer opening the hood and the one standing right next to the nozzleman could have had SCBA on...

[Guest]

I was driving past the scene of a car fire in the daytime recently, and the firefighters who had on vests were MUCH more noticeable than those without. Might I add the firefighters without the vests on were all in SCBA. Now if only the officer opening the hood and the one standing right next to the nozzleman could have had SCBA on...

I believe it states during fire activity the vest should not be worn as they are not flame resistant as far as SCBA you can drag a horse to water but you cant make them drink

[markmets415 524]

It is with deep regret that we advise you of the Line of Duty Death of Delaware City Fire Company

www.dcfc15.com (DE) Member Michelle Smith, age 29. As you know, Smith was operating at the scene of a motorcycle crash Saturday evening when she was struck and critically injured. Her injuries were too severe and she has now tragically died in the Line of Duty.

The Delaware City Fire Company was providing ambulance coverage for the Wilmington Manor Fire Company that evening. Upon arrival at the crash, and initial assessment of the patient, FD Ambulance Driver Michelle Smith, 29, was assisting the EMT on scene with patient care. A County Police Officer stopped to assist with traffic control, as rescue and fire police units from Wilmington Manor began to arrive. A vehicle that attempted to avoid the incident scene struck the County Police vehicle and then swerved around the Delaware City BLS unit, striking Ms. Smith. The driver of the vehicle then fled the scene. Ms. Smith was treated on scene by New Castle County Paramedics and EMT's from Wilmington Manor and Goodwill Fire Companies. She was transported with extensive traumatic injuries and has now succumbed to those injuries. Police are narrowing in on the suspects in this hit and run...and now, potential murder.

Our most sincere condolences to the members of the Delaware City Fire Company but especially the young Daughter, her family and friends of Michelle Smith. Here is their home page: www.dcfc15.com

posted with permission from the secretlist

[Guest]

Mark not that it makes a difference but do we know if she had full ppe on and a vest??

May Michelle RIP

[ny10570 745]

The driver struck another vehicle before swerving around an ambulance and struck Ms. Smith. She could have been wearing 1,000 Watt light on her head and she was still going to get hit. Visibility is not our problem. If you've driven past a scene in Westchester or LI recently you've probably noticed how hard it is to see the road in front of you because the light show gets so bright. If you want to stop people from getting hurt at these scenes park a big flipping fire truck behind you and slow traffic down. Stack up cars till they're 3 or 4 deep in all lanes and you won't see these things happen.

[Guest]

The driver struck another vehicle before swerving around an ambulance and struck Ms. Smith. She could have been wearing 1,000 Watt light on her head and she was still going to get hit. Visibility is not our problem. If you've driven past a scene in Westchester or LI recently you've probably noticed how hard it is to see the road in front of you because the light show gets so bright. If you want to stop people from getting hurt at these scenes park a big flipping fire truck behind you and slow traffic down. Stack up cars till they're 3 or 4 deep in all lanes and you won't see these things happen.

Better idea shut down the road!!!!

[Guest Photounit]

I posted this elsewhere but it belongs here..... I have my own belief about the new requirement for these vests ........ The long and short of it is that we have all these lights on our vehicles and people still hit them...... And we have all this reflective striping on our gear and people still hit us so, the question begs to be asked; how are these huge chevrons and reflective vests going to help us? To me we are just aiding the people who are under the influence of drugs, alcohol, lack of sleep, or stupidity by better illuminating the target..... I saw a study several years ago and it said that the majority of these accidents were caused by one of the above and not visibility...... JMO (Just my opinion)

[ny10570 745]

Better idea shut down the road!!!!

I would love to shut the road down every time, but you do still have to allow people and commerce to continue about their routine. However my safety is paramount. Slow everyone down.

Photounit, you're spot on. Anyone who has ever spent much time on two wheels learns that you go where you look. Want to avoid a pot hole, stump, rut, or pedestrian keep your eye on your line around the obstruction not the obstruction. Several studies have shown that people with impaired mental function (drugs, alcohol, or tired) fix their gaze on flashing lights. The chevrons supposedly direct the eyes away from the vehicle. But there's nothing about what happens when you have multiple chevrons or chevrons that are partially obscured by other vehicles.

[Guest]

CLOSE the road

If we can ANYONE can

[Guest]

My safety and and the safety of the members come first / we all go home safely

Edited December 23, 2008 by JHK3605

[helicopper 1,050]

I can't believe all the resistance to a regulation that's designed to make us all safer?

Agree, disagree, sit on the fence - it doesn't change the fact that this is now the law and should help make us all safer. No, it's not a panacea but neither is closing the road. There are problems with closing the road too but that's for a different discussion. There is no single measure that will prevent collisions at a scene. All we can do is our part to influence the factors within our control.

The vests may make only a negligible difference for an FF in full turnout gear but for those who don't wear turnout gear (PD, EMS, DOT, DPW, private tow contractors, etc.), this is a huge step in the right direction. How many PD's or tow services are out there in dark blue uniforms / dark blue workpants and jacket? A vest WILL make a difference for them.

If you don't like it, don't wear it but you'll have to deal with the fallout if something happens.

Want to make things safer on a scene? Properly use flares and cones, position vehicles appropriately, wear your PPE, turn off unnecessary lights on vehicles not involved with traffic control, prohibit responding vehicles from stopping in the opposite lanes of traffic and crossing the road, and use the minimum number of people necessary for the operation required - no need for 30 people on a highway scene.

Thanks NY10570 for stating much of the above!

[x129K 1,393]

My safety and and the safety of the members come first / we all go home safely

I am very glad to read that, since in a week or so you will be stepping up to Deputy Chief of Department...the department I am in as well... You know I will be holding you to that!

You know as well as I do it isn't always feasible to shut down the road, and while it would be ideal...it just aint gonna happen all the time!

If we DID close the road each time (nationally speaking), how many more cases of firemen getting arrested by cops would we see! Let the peepeeing matches begin!

MOD NOTE: Line removed and moved to new thread on personnel communications to keep this thread on topic.

[99subi 121]

Absolutley! After talking to a respected Past Chief both here and in person, I have changed my tune...a little..

However, in some areas, there are a majority of members at calls, including officers and Cheifs, that do not even wear PPE, or maybe might throw a coat on...maybe just the hitches....it happens more often than it should.

I, however, wear full PPE all of the time...I LIKE wearing my gear...I HATE feeling or being unprepared or unprotected...

So...would I get my balls busted for being in full PPE minus a vest as opposed to the "other guys" wearing street clothes?

Couldnt have said it better myself.