Training Disaster in the Making.

[Remember585 815]

From Firehouse.com

N.C. Firefighters Get Surprise Live Fire Training

The Maiden Fire Department conducted a live burn on 12/28/04 where as we had the fire chief to prestage at the burn site and ignite the house.

I had staged our fire department members at the station under a different planning session. They had no idea that they were going to be dispatched to a working structure fire.

It was designed to use our less experienced firemen in this scenario. The plan was to subject them to a hot call and have them work under stress and pressure, They were not aware of the situation.

Things went great, and this is what they had to contend with upon their arrival. The training involved tanker operations, pump operations, hose and nozzle appliances, and master streams.

Anyone else see some MAJOR problems with this? Not to mention violations of NFPA 1403? To me, this is just plain dumb. Share your opinions!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Anyone whom took my Live Fire Safety/Conducting Live Fire Evolutions Classes want to chime in as well?

You've got to be kidding me. Many of you know I do not believe in acquired structure training, but this is one reason why so many agencies limit us time and time again through regulations & laws. We have no one to blame but ourselves.

NFPA 1403:

Know the burning characteristics of all materials used.

Ignition officer lights fire in conjuction with lead instructor, in presence of safety officer and charged handline. (VIOLATION)

Burn only 1 room at a time (I doubt this was followed by ignition or extension)

No combustible/flammable liquids. (maybe not used, but again doubt it)

I could probably list a few more but won't for the sake of time. These are the types of incidents that need to be blasted on forums. But you would have someone from that or a nearby dept. or bleeding heart to defend them and say we shouldn't lay blame. Guess what, the Maiden FD sucks and is on my low list for respect.

[TRUCK6018 50]

Assumed - no pre drill briefing on the planned evolutions.

no established water source (goes along with the lack of handlines).

[Guest WolfEMT]

I can understand the premise behind wanting the less experienced firefighters to work under stress and pressure, but an instance like this is gonna get someone hurt or killed.

[Truck4 48]

Photos at www.firehouse.com under Hot Shots - Photostories.

[Shantz02 0]

If they wanted the less experienced guys to work under stress and pressure, im sure there are plenty of other ways to achieve that. Throwing them to the wind is by far the worst idea ive ever heard of.

What really scares me is that the guy who planned this seems really excited that he surprised all the members. Its like a sick joke and fortunately for those less experienced members, no one got hurt.

[DOC22 1]

This is just plain STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can think of a hell of a lot better training methodology to accomplish the same thing MUCH more safely [-X [-X [-X [-X [-X [-X [-X [-X

[Pudge3311 5]

IMO, the explanation that he wanted it to be unexpected and wanted to see the less experienced members under some stress is not a bad idea. The way he went about it, by not having a water source, not having a hand line in case something went wrong, that is a problem.

The use of exterior operations only, which i would think looking at the pictures was used, could also be meant to keep track of everyone, insuring the safety of the less experienced members if the burn did in fact get out of control.

[Shantz02 0]

If you ask me, by looking at the pictures, the burn WAS out of control. That fire had to have been set well before any call was made. Either that or they used way too much accelerant. For the entire structure to be completely engulfed like that shows poor planning. Wouldnt you want the members to learn how the fire might move throughout the structure? Anyone can bring a bunch of guys to a fully involved structure, keep them outside, and pray that nothing bad happens. The Maiden FD made some very bad decisions and as i said earlier, they are very lucky no one got hurt.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

"It was a success"

This is what is wrong with the fire service today. Pictures are worth a thousand words.

Outside the ridiculous nature of how this burn was conducted there were several other problems I noted.

First, with that much fire volume, most of your water will be dedicated to exposure protection. The amount of radiant heat generated will cause severe and extended exposure problems to structures at distances not normally conceived as exposures

2nd...Once again, over reliance on preconnected 1 3/4 lines. One picture clearly shows a firefighter with a preconnect 1 3/4 line in his hand. Not enough flow there chap. Sounds like the leadership needs some more experience.

3rd: Nothing pisses me off more then hearing any comment in regard to training with the term "less experienced members" in it. Everyone needs training on every topic. Regardless of how "routine" we want to make it. That is an moronic, ignorant statement. And if you an officer or training officer spitting out that comment, you need to be relieved.

[BIGRED1 71]

Can someone kindly point out where the "under control" part of this burn is? Was the house made of wood soaked in gasoline? Notice that while the house is the definition of "Fully Involved", there are no water streams on the fire.

[afd65 4]

there is no control of anything there. that is one of the stupidest training exercises i have heard of

[Shantz02 0]

Does anyone else notice the RING of FIRE burning in an outward circle from the house? Tells me that this thing was going for a really long time and hit extremely high temps.

Were there any other houses nearby? Cause I cant for the life of me figure out why there were no calls to report this 'house on fire'.

[Guest]

Well, maybe this Chief got his dates wrong and he started his "New Year's Eve Bonfire" party 3 days early......... ](*,) ](*,) :burn: :burn: :burn:

[firemn23 8]

Looks like a one room fire to me #-o #-o

[Guest x2371]

I can't beleive that firehouse.com put this on there front page. I thought that they were better then that

[DMA327 12]

Maybe a written letter of personal safety is in order?!?!?!

[BIGRED1 71]

Notice that these two guys are wearing only the SCBA MASKS and not tanks. i think that maybe thats a little bit of a no-no also.

This whole burn is all wrong. the only positive thing to say is "Hey, at least nobody died!" the ring of fire around the building, maybe a little more then one room involved, going at it with a garden hose instead of a deck gun. Even a less expierienced guy would say "Um Chief, this doesn't look too good"

[Shantz02 0]

Wait guys, of course its a one room fire. cant you tell that there are no interior walls? theyve all been burned away creating one big open space.

Masks and tanks, masks and no tanks, i dont care what they have on. They shouldnt have been there in the first place.

What if they were to get into an accident on teh way there? Then what? 'Uh, we were rushing to get to a pre-planned live burn that we had no idea about. It wasnt a real emergency.'

So forget just them being lucky that no one was hurt or killed, the public is lucky as well.

[BIGRED1 71]

Wait guys,  of course its a one room fire.  cant you tell that there are no interior walls?  theyve all been burned away creating one big open space.

HAHA thats true. didn't even think of that one. I cant believe Firehouse didn't notice that the whole burn was against ever rule in the live fire burn book

[afd65 4]

shantz i didn't even realize that they were responding from there firehouse to the "live burn". u r correct in that the public is lucky no1 got hurt as well

[jnb1335 0]

From the Secret List:

There is also an interesting article on Firehouse.com worth checking out. A Chief in N.C. recently held a drill for his firefighters that was a surprise-as it was a live fire. The Chief had staged his members at their firehouse-under a different planning session. They had no idea that they were going to be dispatched to a working structure fire. While it appears everything went very well, it serves as a good reminder to us of how critical it is for us to prepare for any live fire training by following NFPA 1403 to a "T". Check it out at:

http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/a...nId=45&id=37946

[Shantz02 0]

jnb, not to be mean, but you seem to be a little behind the times. that article is the exact "training" exercise wev'e been talking about.

good job looking out for us though, much appreciated. the more people that see this and realize how bad it could have been, the better off we will be in the future.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

There is much criticism being posted on firehouse.com forums as well.

The worse part is there are person, one whom lists himself as an instructor (which is what makes it even worse) whom is actually trying to defend what possibly was occurring for that drill.

NFPA 1403 was adopted in 1982 because we can't protect our own, ourselves. We've still killed people doing live fire training. Cops don't get shot at to train how to respond to a shoot out. When I was in the Marine Corps, they didn't shoot at me to train me for combat. So why do we feel the need to make "realistic" training, unrealistic by burning more material or as like in this picture, forcing personnel into situations they will hardly ever see?

[jnb1335 0]

Shantz:

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was just reposting that article which I saw today. I've been following this thread since it started. Guess I should've put it in quotes!

JB

[WAS967 97]

There is much criticism being posted on firehouse.com forums as well.

Could you post a link if possible? I'd be interested in reading the feedback over there.

[DOC22 1]

"Training" exercises such as this are the reason we killed 11 brothers during training in 2003. The fire service needs a wake up call. Maybe a few more lawsuits from the families of those we killed or injured? Has everyone forgotten Lairdsville, NY?! The Chief who staged the event being discussed here appears to have written the article and provided the pictures himself. This jerky, no brained SOB needs to leave the fire service before he kills himself or others. This idiot should be criminally charged with reckless endangerment. 

Not that I have an opinion on the issue....

Please excuse my rant :-)

No problem with anybody who rants about this one cause you're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! This a&&h*!@ should be prosecuted to the fullest extent possible!!!!!

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Firehouse forum {"Unplanned" Live Fire Training?}:

http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/showthread.php?

s=b4017989bb3673adfeeab96822fa04628&threadid=65326

EClemente:

As far as having their SCBA masks on but not the tanks, that is an SOG issue. This is obviously a defensive operation in the pictures. They are probably using the masks to shield and protect their faces from radiative and convective heat.

Did anyone remember Lairdsville, NY?

Of course, we don't get to the root of the issues in the fire service when it comes to LODD's. We disregard the root issues that cause LODD's picking and choosing trivial things that kill us, like getting lost, truss collapse etc. However, when the root causes of those are: bad or non existant communications, lack of incident command or structure, training etc. we overlook those because those are real issue that demand real action. Did anyone remember:

Boulder, Colorado 1982

Milford, Michigan 1985

On a side approx. 10% of FF deaths involve training. Keep in mind that "we" didn't necessarily kill 11 brothers/sisters (lets remember to be PC also) in 2003. Live fire training stupidity "kills" someone. Heart attacks and overexertion/stress was still the leading cause of death in the training category. So in a way their lifestyle also contributed to this. In fact there was a full CPR save in upstate NY by a SFI during a course that a student went into cardiac arrest last year.

[WAS967 97]

http://cms.firehouse.com/forums2/showthrea...&threadid=65326

Thanks for the link. Looks like this will take a while to read and digest. :->

[Guest SQUADco119]

YES ITS EMBARRASING AND SCARY TO HEAR AND KNOW THAT A CHEIF WOULD LEAD HIS MEN INTO BATTLE WITHOUT BEING PREPARED BUT IT SHOULD BE ON THE FRONT PAGE TO SHOW THE STUPIDITY AND MISTAKES THATS THE BEST WAY TO LEARN TO SEE OTHERS MISTAKES. [-(