Equipment List for Ladder Comany

[ailc307 1]

My department is finally getting an aerial. Can anyone point me in the direction or e-mail me a inventory of what we need to be a fully functioning ladder company.

Thanks

[Guest]

Go to the Fire Apparatus Manufacturers Assoc.

http://www.fama.org/resourceLibrary/weightcube.cfm

There is a MS Excell sheet there for each apparatus.

Edited August 17, 2008 by LAD19DER NY

[Guest]

Jamey,

I don't have the time at the moment to write in detail about how the tower ladder at my department is equipped, but will give a quick overview. We have a Mack CF with a Baker aerial scope, with 6 riding positions. The truck is outfitted with numerous hand tools that are positioned based on riding positions.

We have the Officer, can man, and irons man to form the inside team, they ride in the 3 seats on the officers side of the truck, and the tools and equipment they need most are mounted or stored on that side of the truck.

The chauffeer, roof man and outside vent man form the outside team, they ride in the 3 seats on the chauffeers side of the truck. The tools and equipment they need are mounted on their side of the truck.

You can never have enough hand tools, especially halligans, force axes, and pike poles.

I will add more later, but until then you can see pictures of the truck and it's compartments at 45 Truck

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Well, start with the basics of a Truck Company.

Search, Forcible Entry, Ventilation, and Overhaul.

Search - Ropes/Tag Lines, Hand Tools, TIC, etc...

Forcible Entry - Hydraulic Hand Tools (i.e. Rabbit Tool or Hydra-Ram) Couple sets of Irons, Sledgehammer(s)/Maul, etc... (Jaws if your department wants the ladder to carry)

Ventilation - Power Saws, Hooks/Poles, Vent Fan, Ground and Roof Ladders (which are really standard on most if not all aerials)

Overhaul - Hooks/Poles, TIC, Tarps, Plastic Sheeting and Shims to cover vent holes, windows, Face/Eye/Particualte Protection, etc...

**Special Consideration for Overhaul**

***CO and/or Multi-Gas Meter*** Always a time no one thinks about gases, during overhaul!!!!

A few other assorted items, such as H2O can, ABC and CO2 extinguishers, and any other assorted items you can think you might possibly need!

If I think of more, I will post, but those I would say are the bare necessities.

[FirNaTine 370]

How about manpower? It's great to have all those tools but if nobody shows up to use them or fulfill those riding positions, what's the sense in having everything under the sun?

[moggie6 54]

I like having a hydro ram and a closet hook for forcible entry in OMD

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

The tools mentioned thus far are a good start. I could mail you our tool list if you would like. Manpower is also a key ingredient. To be considered a fully functioning ladder company you need to develop and adhere to tactics that are based on sound operational guidelines specific to your function at fires & tailored to your dept. & response area. In addition to that you will need to train your personel in ladder company operations. As sqd 47 pointed out, their rig is laid out according to riding positions, and there riding positions adhere to there individual sog's for that position, and there sog's are based on tactics specific for ladder company operations. Their training focuses mainly on the functions of a ladder company at structural fires. Forcible entry, V.E.S. Searching, and laddering to name a few. Simply having an aerial devise outfitted with tools does not constitute a ladder company. It is a great start but there is quite a bit involved.

PM me if you would like some more information & good luck.

Paul

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Hydra Ram & Closet hook for an OMD? Is that it? What if the door has an angle iron, or the hydra ram malfunctions, & most ceilings in an M.D. may be out of the reach of a closet hook.

[Guest]

How about guys that know what they are doing? Or how about someone who actually knows the limitation's of the rig and its capability's.

[FirNaTine 370]

  roofsopen said:

How about guys that know what they are doing? Or how about someone who actually knows the limitation's of the rig and its capability's.

Ya got that right! I see too many guys out there that proclaim to be truckies and can't even hold a halligan right, let alone throw up a ground ladder by themselves! They're proud of their helmet shields and co. patches though.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

Ok guys, I think we get the idea about staffing and training, no need to press that issue.

[on the job 68]

  moggie6 said:

I like having a hydro ram and a closet hook for forcible entry in OMD

Take that closet hook and throw it in the river.... give me a 6' "New York" steel hook.

[x129K 1,393]

  on the job said:

Take that closet hook and throw it in the river.... give me a 6' "New York" steel hook.

Affirmitive K...

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

On the job, 10-4 K ditto for the hydra ram aka $1100 door chock, I'll take the Irons any day

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Sent you a PM about the topic. You have to look at what your operations are going to be, what you plan on using it for that you were utilizing other apparatus for and how some of your operations run. There are obvious basics that every aerial apparatus should carry, some dictated by NFPA 1901.

I'm not a big position based person if that seat is not going to be staffed consistently, which boils down often to career departments or when departments do duty crews. Plus some departments you have to be skill based more then just function based when you don't know what you'll be tasked with when you arrive. If you'd like to discuss some things more please contact me via the info given in your PM.

Hey call me the pepsi generation, but a set of irons comes along with the hydra ram. Still helps if you have to force a bunch of steel doors.

[Guest]

  alsfirefighter said:

I'm not a big position based person if that seat is not going to be staffed consistently, which boils down often to career departments or when departments do duty crews. Plus some departments you have to be skill based more then just function based when you don't know what you'll be tasked with when you arrive.

John Norman does a pretty good job writing about these issues in his Fire Officer's Handbook.

I, for one, when I was an officer, liked riding positions because all my personnel were trained to know where to sit based on their ability and seniority. Sitting in the front seat on the way to a call I could look back into the jumpseat area and very quickly assess what I had for a crew. Lot less micro-managing for the company officer this way.

[Geppetto 31]

Also consider items required by ISO for "Ladder" and "Service" companies. It's pretty basic stuff, but you might as well get the credit for it if you're going to spend the money on the rolling stock. Some items are NOT required by NFPA 1901. There are equivalencies for many items which may work out better for your individual district.

http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/3000/ppc3005.html

http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/3000/ppc3006.html

http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/3000/ppc3007.html

[ex-commish 490]

  xfirefighter484x said:

Ok guys, I think we get the idea about staffing and training, no need to press that issue.

They actually bring up a valid point. Maybe the issue needs to be pressed.

[INIT915 1,119]

  HFD219 said:

They actually bring up a valid point. Maybe the issue needs to be pressed.

Why is it valid? The man asked a clear and specific question, why does is need to go off on a tangent. Wanna discuss manpower, start another thread about manpower.

[ex-commish 490]

  INIT915 said:

Why is it valid? The man asked a clear and specific question, why does is need to go off on a tangent. Wanna discuss manpower, start another thread about manpower.

It's valid because what they state is the truth.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

  Sqd47 said:

John Norman does a pretty good job writing about these issues in his Fire Officer's Handbook.

I, for one, when I was an officer, liked riding positions because all my personnel were trained to know where to sit based on their ability and seniority. Sitting in the front seat on the way to a call I could look back into the jumpseat area and very quickly assess what I had for a crew. Lot less micro-managing for the company officer this way.

Sqd:

I'm not saying I am against them, but I've seen departments try to put stock in position based functions when less then 1% of the time there are members actually riding on apparatus and the rest they show up in POV's. I agree that, and that was my point that when I say the position is consistantly staffed, from a managment perspective having your crew already know what is expected of them is much easier. But again I don't feel that it has worked well in my experience with a department that tried to do it when the rig rolls with a driver and members arrive on scene with POV's and functions are occurring as more personnel arrive. Often simultaneous functions would occur or the IC or "sector leader" would think something is occurring based on the SCBA missing out of the "position" when someone actually just grabbed it and did another function or jumped into one starting. Or you are tasked with functions based on your arrival as 1st due or 2nd due, or in cases where even that hasn't been pre-determined and you may get tasked with something else again upon arrival. Everything has its time and place...but a cookie cutter approach may not work for all.

Edited August 18, 2008 by alsfirefighter

[INIT915 1,119]

  HFD219 said:

It's valid because what they state is the truth.

Then provide a link to one of the 500 topics where that has been addressed ad naseum. Why hijack yet another? The poster did not indicate any staffing issues, did he? He asked a straight forward question.

[ex-commish 490]

  INIT915 said:

Then provide a link to one of the 500 topics where that has been addressed ad naseum. Why hijack yet another? The poster did not indicate any staffing issues, did he? He asked a straight forward question.

Brother I am not hijacking anything. I was merely agreeing with what two other posters stated about equipment and not enough qualified manpower.

[Guest]

  alsfirefighter said:

Sqd:

I'm not saying I am against them, but I've seen departments try to put stock in position based functions when less then 1% of the time there are members actually riding on apparatus and the rest they show up in POV's. I agree that, and that was my point that when I say the position is consistantly staffed, from a managment perspective having your crew already know what is expected of them is much easier. But again I don't feel that it has worked well in my experience with a department that tried to do it when the rig rolls with a driver and members arrive on scene with POV's and functions are occurring as more personnel arrive. Often simultaneous functions would occur or the IC or "sector leader" would think something is occurring based on the SCBA missing out of the "position" when someone actually just grabbed it and did another function or jumped into one starting. Or you are tasked with functions based on your arrival as 1st due or 2nd due, or in cases where even that hasn't been pre-determined and you may get tasked with something else again upon arrival. Everything has its time and place...but a cookie cutter approach may not work for all.

ALSfirefighter,

You are right on the money when you say that a cookie cutter approach may not work.

Here are some of the strengths of incorporating riding positions as a doctrine:

1. Strategy and tactics. Giving firefighters in your crew an assignment based on riding position sets into motion many of the aspects of a coordinated fire attack that ensures needed jobs get done. If I am the officer and I know my crew already has a pretty good idea of what we will be doing as the first due truck at a private dwelling fire, I don't have to waste time giving individual orders to each member when we arrive on scene.

By the same token, if the IC understands that the first due truck has a certain job they should do on arrival, he doesn't have to micromanage either.

What is sad is when strategy and tactics go out the window, or are never considered in the first place... leads to silliness like the first due truck stretching a backup line... what happened to the truck work that should have been happening?

It is true that this becomes more difficult to manage when you have members showing up in POV's, but the work assignments inherent in the pre-determination of responsibilities of the truck company can still be carried out. It just takes a little more communication and monitoring to ensure what needs to get done actually does get done.

2. Training. When you introduce riding positions in training, you instantly expose newer firefighters to concepts like coordinated fire attack, pre-planning, accountability by work assignment, and they learn how to be pro-active and think for themselves. Everyone is on the same page. The work load of the company officer is greatly reduced because by simply telling Firefighter "A" that he is the can man, he has given several orders that he otherwise would have wasted time if he were not using riding assignments.

As far as the manpower issue goes, it is definitely an important part of the equation. As one of my favorite instructors likes to say, without the personnel aboard to do the jobs needing doing, the truck is just a toolbox on wheels. Equally importtant, as an earlier poster has mentioned, is making sure that the truck and it-s crew get used in the best way. A department that has not had an aerial before now needs to think of things like making sure that the truck gets the front of the building, that the first due engine needs to be sure the truck can get in, and the the IC actually understands and uses the truck company to it's full capabilities.

Edited August 18, 2008 by Sqd47

[FFPCogs 863]

As was stated first and foremost you have to learn, and then know the rig's abilities and limitaions as a machine. I'll assume that it was purchased for a reason, to fill a need... learn to use it safely and properly to fulfill that need.

As for staffing, well I would always prefer to utilize riding assignments based on a minimum of crew members. When this is not practical or possible your dept.'s truck co. operations should reflect this in your departments SOG's. If you don't have TrCo SOGs, seek advice from neighboring dept.s/companies with similar constraints to develop them ASAP and then train, train, train and then train some more.

Also just to reinforce an earlier post, look to the ISO requirements and NFPA guidelines as a start. From there outfit the rig with whatever specific tools that your dept.s SOGs call for, and that meet your needs.

There are basics of course:

a well rounded compliment of ground ladders:

life belts, couple of 24s, at least one 35, at least 2 different length roof ladders say a 12 and a 20..if you have roofs in your area that require such lengths, one attic or collapsible ladder, a step ladder (or little giant) or any variety thereof that meet the needs of your response area.

hand tools:

say 4-6 halliagns, same for flathead axes, at least 2 pickheads, a variety of hooks say four 6 footers, two 8s, two 10s, one crowbar, at least one maul, tool box with the standard set of screwdirvers, pliers, channel locks, hammer ect, at least one bam-bam (lock cylinder puller), wire and bolt cutters, say 6 -8 hand lights, at least 2 cans, 1 CO2, and 1 dry chem extinguisher, ropes for hauling and life safety/repelling and I'm sure there's a few more obvious ones I'm forgetting

Power tools:

venting saw, forcible entry saw (both can be K12s but I would make sure to have 2...one for venting, one for FE), an air chisel, hilti multi drill gun, cordless drill, at least one portable generator, a variey of scene lights

salvage:

at least four 12 x 12 or better salavage covers, a chimney brush and bucket for residential chim fires, a coal shovel, flat or snow type shovel, a push broom

All necessary fittings, couplings and hose for master stream operations per your department's standards

Like I said I'm sure there is much more...but you get the idea.

Having all this equipment is important, but I've found that it's placement on the rig is also important...In general, I suggest that the more often the tool is used the easier it should be to deploy. I've seen plenty of rigs where the equipment is just thrown on or slapped into a compartment, or worse placed for style not function, and when it's needed it's a battle to get at it. When placing equipment put yourself on scene, not at parades or parked in the firehouse.

Hope this helps a little

Take care

and as always

Stay Safe

Cogs

Edited August 18, 2008 by FFPCogs

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

I tend to agree with Sqd 47 mainly because we were exposed to the same system and saw it in action. I also see some of ALS' concerns, but I think they were addressed by Sqd. In order for anything to work on the fireground all players have to be on the same page. We had a dedicated truck company with riding assignments, and based on our manpower at time of dispatch was how they were filled. If we has 3 guys we would ride with a chauffer, officer (Irons) & Jumpseat (Canman). The remaining positions would be filled if manpower was in quaters. If we had home responders they could fill the remaining positions upon there arrival on scene and carry out the associated tasks. Our main priority was to staff an inside team first and foremost to carry out forcible entry & primary searches. The main downside was when we would go mutual aid and their cheifs would view us as simply extra manpower and would use us ineffectively. In these situations our critical functions were not getting completed. All players have to be on the same page, and this is accomplished through clear strategy and tactics that stretch accross district lines, and consistent multi unit drills so every understands the functions and capabilities of each unit at a fire.

[xfirefighter484x 234]

  HFD219 said:

They actually bring up a valid point. Maybe the issue needs to be pressed.

I never once denied it was a valid point, to which I replied "ok guys, we get the picture".

For a gentleman asking about what was needed on an aerial, it seems to me, is what the original poster was asking. How many times/ways do you want a valid point, but off-tangent to be phrased/said??

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

The gentleman asked what was required to be a fully functioning ladder company. I think the brothers are expressing the opinion that it takes a lot more than an apparatus and tools to accomplish this. Is that such a bad thing? I think alot of stimulating and thought provoking discussion has insued.

[Guest]

I concur with Paul J. Debartolomeo.

Going out and buying an aerial without learning what it means to operate as a truck company is like going out and buying a 747 jumbo jet and not having the crew to run it. Sure, it looks good, and one might feel awful proud that they have a big old jet aeroplane in the hangar, but what use is it.

[FFPCogs 863]

I have to agree with others here:

Without question the MOST important equipment for any Truck Co. (or any other Co. for that matter) is trained personnel to operate it. Acquire the tools needed (most of which have appeared here), place them efficiently on the rig, and then work your a**ses off to be the best you can be to get the full potential out of your rig and personnel.

It doesn't matter what "type" of fire department your in...paid, volunteer, or combination, the fact is we are firefighters and as such we have a responsibility to do all we can to provide the best possible coverage for our communities. All the bells and whistles on earth won't change that or make a rig work any better than the people who operate it, paycheck or not.

Cogs