Training With A K12 Saw: What Is Wrong With This Picutre?

[dc2t 80]

Nice picture what is wrong with this?

[Ex-2114 7]

Nice picture what is wrong with this?

ummm..... the guy behind the dude in the red shirt with his unprotected hand/arm/body on the blade guard doesn't have his chinstrap secured?????

[jack10562 414]

WOW...Who is the guy in the red shirt!

His nickname must be "Lucky"? ( i could think of a few others...)

When my guys use a cutoff/chop saw like that, they are required to wear a full-face shield, in addition to goggles.

If the blade were to shatter, pieces of it would be all over the place in "a blink" ...of the remaining eye.

[Guest]

It appears to me that the guy in the red shirt did not comb his hair!

[20y2 43]

What's wrong?

1.)You didn't cite the source of the picture.

2.The picture size is too small.

3.The white balance is off.

I could go on and on....

[abaduck 123]

I don't know where to start. Why do you say 'training'? It looks as though it was taken in an office building, so presumably they're on a job. In which case Mr. Red Shirt is presumably a civilian; I find it hard to believe he's a firefighter. So why the **** is he being allowed to grab the saw? Then we can discuss WHERE he is grabbing the saw, and lack of appropriate PPE, and ...

Mike

[dc2t 80]

I don't know where to start. Why do you say 'training'? It looks as though it was taken in an office building, so presumably they're on a job. In which case Mr. Red Shirt is presumably a civilian; I find it hard to believe he's a firefighter. So why the **** is he being allowed to grab the saw? Then we can discuss WHERE he is grabbing the saw, and lack of appropriate PPE, and ...

Mike

Firehouse Expo hands on training.

[LTNRFD 266]

On a positive note.

The red tee shirt was a very good choice on the part of the instructor. It really distinguished who the instructor is and who the students are.

[SBVFD524 0]

Ok so the guys is teaching. "not as i do but do as i say" In a different note I owen 9 k-12 saws as part of a the masonry industry. My guys were eye glasses and there shirts are tucked in and ear plugs. I don't get is some guys think these saws are like the devil. You need to be fully zipped up full face goggles on and yada yada. i mean i know some pepole cant handle the saws but its over kill the manufacturer of the saws say you need eye and hearing protection. but everyone needs full turnouts yada yada but i never see any of them with ere plugs in!

[Guest BFD196]

The guy doing the training is Captain of Manhattan's Rescue 1. There is probably few, if anyone, here that has the level of training or the incredible amount of experience he has. So in my opinion unless anyone criticizing is one of those few people, then don't worry about it. Perhaps go read one of his articles in Fire Engineering or Firehouse, it would certainly be more productive since you can learn something from almost everything he says, I know I have.

Edited August 14, 2008 by BFD196

[abaduck 123]

Firehouse Expo hands on training.

Ahhhhhhh. That explains a lot. It looked far smarter than any training facility I've been in!

As for an FDNY rescue cap... familiarity breeds contempt? It's caught out better men than you or me...

(and to make a point I learned a long time ago outside the fire service, being a God-level instructor (in any subject) who can do it with both eyes closed, means you have to be MORE careful, not less - not because YOU don't know how to do the drill, but because you can never be sure when a student is going to do something seriously dumb and dangerous...)

Mike

[x242Steve 1]

The guy doing the training is Captain of Manhattan's Rescue 1. There is probably few, if anyone, here that has the level of training or the incredible amount of experience he has. So in my opinion unless anyone criticizing is one of those few people, then don't worry about it. Perhaps go read one of his articles in Fire Engineering or Firehouse, it would certainly be more productive since you can learn something from almost everything he says, I know I have.

So because of his rank and experience he has skin made of Kevlar and corneas made of Lexan?

All humor aside, and with due respect to that person- No excuse for lack of proper PPE!

Edited August 14, 2008 by 242steve

[5slow 9]

The guy doing the training is Captain of Manhattan's Rescue 1. There is probably few, if anyone, here that has the level of training or the incredible amount of experience he has. So in my opinion unless anyone criticizing is one of those few people, then don't worry about it. Perhaps go read one of his articles in Fire Engineering or Firehouse, it would certainly be more productive since you can learn something from almost everything he says, I know I have.

Okay, so he's above getting injured then?! Bad argument... The big problem is the buffs who brought their gear...

[Guest]

So because of his rank and experience he has skin made of Kevlar and corneas made of Lexan?

All humor aside, and with due respect to that person- No excuse for lack of proper PPE!

All humor aside, I think that his rank and experience make him a little more adept at making a judgement about assessing and understanding the risks inherent in what he is doing.

Harden up.

[ny10570 745]

I don't give a crap who he is or where he works. SBVFD524 nailed it. The vast majority of k-12 saws are used in the construction industry along with several other types of abrasive wheel saws. Go to any commercial construction site and guys will be cutting hundreds to thousands of pieces of steel framing studs, channel, etc all while wearing nothing more than leather boots, jeans, t-shirt, and maybe eye protection. Its SAFE. RELAX. Worried about the blade detonating take a look before you start. If there is an obvious (can see daylight) crack then the blade is no good. Those things get bounced around dropped and generally abused and I've never seen a blade catastrophically fail. Heard about it and everything was contained by the guard.

[dc2t 80]

I don't give a crap who he is or where he works. SBVFD524 nailed it. The vast majority of k-12 saws are used in the construction industry along with several other types of abrasive wheel saws. Go to any commercial construction site and guys will be cutting hundreds to thousands of pieces of steel framing studs, channel, etc all while wearing nothing more than leather boots, jeans, t-shirt, and maybe eye protection. Its SAFE. RELAX. Worried about the blade detonating take a look before you start. If there is an obvious (can see daylight) crack then the blade is no good. Those things get bounced around dropped and generally abused and I've never seen a blade catastrophically fail. Heard about it and everything was contained by the guard.

What's next, garbage men ride back steps all the time its safe so should we do it? Missing the point.

[Doc 11]

What's next, garbage men ride back steps all the time its safe so should we do it? Missing the point.

I don't think anybody's going to leap that conclusion. Riding unsecured on the tailboard of a moving vehicle isn't quite the same level. I think the issue here is that on a construction site, you have guys working on relatively stable ground, in daylight and controlled conditions using an appropriate level of protective gear for the job - in that case, safety glasses.

On a fire scene, at night, in incliment weather, under uncontrolled conditions, including possibly poor visibility, I think a higher level of protective equipment is called for and should be worn... and NOBODY should ever be operating on a fireground in anything less thant their issued PPE.

Conditions play a part as does a realistic consideration of the circumstances, time when rational risk assessment comes into play. I have NEVER seen anybody insist that FF's working a port-a-tank operation wear personal flotation vests and safety lines, despite dozens of people drowning in less thant two feet of water every year. I think given the fact that this picture was in a controlled training environment, an appropriate level of PPE for the instructor would have been safety glasses and gloves. Since FF's should always train as they work, full-structural PPE would be the way to go.

[gamewell45 258]

Conditions play a part as does a realistic consideration of the circumstances, time when rational risk assessment comes into play. I have NEVER seen anybody insist that FF's working a port-a-tank operation wear personal flotation vests and safety lines, despite dozens of people drowning in less thant two feet of water every year. I think given the fact that this picture was in a controlled training environment, an appropriate level of PPE for the instructor would have been safety glasses and gloves. Since FF's should always train as they work, full-structural PPE would be the way to go.

Very good anaolgy Doc; 99.9% of the time maybe nothing goes wrong; but God forbid if someone gets hurt or killed. Then you'd see alot of hand-wringing and second guessing.

As you mentioned, the instructor should have been wearing safety glasses and gloves and perhaps even a helmet, if not fire, then safety helmet. In defense of the instructor, he was probably a little over confident. Might be a good idea for the dept. chief to call him into the office and remind him of the necessity of wearing proper safety gear.

[Guest]

Very good anaolgy Doc; 99.9% of the time maybe nothing goes wrong; but God forbid if someone gets hurt or killed. Then you'd see alot of hand-wringing and second guessing.

As you mentioned, the instructor should have been wearing safety glasses and gloves and perhaps even a helmet, if not fire, then safety helmet. In defense of the instructor, he was probably a little over confident. Might be a good idea for the dept. chief to call him into the office and remind him of the necessity of wearing proper safety gear.

Hehehehe I have to laugh.

I mean, really now.

What does the dept. chief have to do with this? The training was being conducted at a private facility by a private organization.

You guys are over-reacting.

[dc2t 80]

Nice picture what is wrong with this?

Photo now deleted from Firehouse.com

[Bnechis 3,961]

The vast majority of k-12 saws are used in the construction industry along with several other types of abrasive wheel saws. Go to any commercial construction site and guys will be cutting hundreds to thousands of pieces of steel framing studs, channel, etc all while wearing nothing more than leather boots, jeans, t-shirt, and maybe eye protection. Its SAFE. RELAX.

Great so now we are taking leasons from the only industry that has a safety record thats worst than the fire service.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Photo now deleted from Firehouse.com

Why? Could it be that it goes against their teachings?

[Future Fireman 4]

I'm putting my 2 cents in.

I don't care who you are, how experienced you are, or what rank you hold. If you're going to have training PPE is a MUST. Our service is dangerous in training as it is in real life. Always wear your PPE. I don't care if you think you're invicible against a shower of sparks without your PPE. I know I'm personally not going to start a saw (although I have not....yet) unless everyone around in the vicinity is properly protected with bunker gear.

I believe ALSFirefighter once had in his signature "Train like you fight; Fight like you train." That should speak for itself.

Mike

Edited August 14, 2008 by Future Fireman

[Guest]

Thats not a K 12, its a 950. And yes Capt Morris is wrong to be holding the shield to the saw with nothing on! Unless he made the blade thats doing that cutting and can attest to its integrity I would not want to be the one putting my babesight, I mean eyesight on the line!

[weaselff 6]

When I use to summer as a laborer I operated plenty of chop saws(K-12's) with street clothes, work gloves and safety glasses. I've seen much bigger safety violations than this guy. His lack of eye protection is really the only red flag I see.

[JFLYNN 681]

I'm putting my 2 cents in.

I don't care who you are, how experienced you are, or what rank you hold. If you're going to have training PPE is a MUST. Our service is dangerous in training as it is in real life. Always wear your PPE. I don't care if you think you're invicible against a shower of sparks without your PPE. I know I'm personally not going to start a saw (although I have not....yet) unless everyone around in the vicinity is properly protected with bunker gear.

I believe ALSFirefighter once had in his signature "Train like you fight; Fight like you train." That should speak for itself.

Mike

Young man, I don't know you, but based on all the times you have "put your 2 cents in", and what you have had to say, I predict that, unless you change your attitude, you will have a very difficult and unhappy career if you are ever hired as a career Firefighter anywhere...that's just my two cents...

[gamewell45 258]

Hehehehe I have to laugh.

I mean, really now.

What does the dept. chief have to do with this? The training was being conducted at a private facility by a private organization.

You guys are over-reacting.

If this instructor is training his firefighters, the chief has every right to call him in on it. But nonetheless i'm glad you got a good laugh; we need more of it in here.

[JetPhoto 626]

With all this talk the guy already cut his arms and legs off...The company he worked for is looking for a new employee. Anyone interested? :angry:

[xfirefighter484x 234]

What's wrong?

1.)You didn't cite the source of the picture.

2.The picture size is too small.

3.The white balance is off.

I could go on and on....

:lol:

I believe ALSFirefighter once had in his signature "Train like you fight; Fight like you train." That should speak for itself.

Well said, couldn't agree more!!

Thats not a K 12, its a 950. And yes Capt Morris is wrong to be holding the shield to the saw with nothing on! Unless he made the blade thats doing that cutting and can attest to its integrity I would not want to be the one putting my babesight, I mean eyesight on the line!

You are arguing semantics about the saw!! I am glad you agree though, about the lack of proper PPE, which I think goes back to ALSFirefighter's Signature. How can you expect some to follow an example you do not set yourself?!?!?!

[ex-commish 490]

The guy doing the training is Captain of Manhattan's Rescue 1. There is probably few, if anyone, here that has the level of training or the incredible amount of experience he has. So in my opinion unless anyone criticizing is one of those few people, then don't worry about it. Perhaps go read one of his articles in Fire Engineering or Firehouse, it would certainly be more productive since you can learn something from almost everything he says, I know I have.

I have read many of his articles and am impressed with his experience and knowldege but I don't believe his knowledge is being questioned here rather should he have been wearing some form of PPE. I say yes.