Electrical Short - Initial Dispatch and your thoughts

[Oswegowind 17]

Writers Note: I am not a firefighter and although I went through some courses years ago and have done some stuff at the County Facility with my locality in the past, my opinion on this is as a DISPATCHER only!

The call comes in to 911.

911: "911 (enter location here), what is your emergency?"

RP: There are sparks coming from the outlet and smoke.

911: Confirms address and says they will send the fire dept.

RP: Thanks 911 of course (right!)

FD Dispatcher gets job. Reviews address, call type, and nature of condition. Job is entered as an electrical short.

Quiz:

1) Should dispatcher send out call as an electrical short which in my location does not get full response only limited?

2) As a responding unit do you treat this as a possible "job"?

3) Do you think, based on potential, that call should be upgraded to a possible "job" and electrical short used as a "clearing code"?

4) First due companies (engine and ladder), what tools do you grab and bring in?

5) Please provide info about your locality and the response generated for a reported electrical short and for a possible fire. Thanks!

That's about it!

Got burned a few years ago when info on this type of job was a little shady. Ended up being a working job in the end! Learned a lesson. However, I continue to see this call type entered and sent out routinely because people with no fire experience determine it is only an electrical short after a brief conversation with a person on even less experience. Looking forward to a productive discussion!!!!!!! Please no bashing!

[JBE 328]

As a dispatcher, I would turn this out as a structural fire response, and ensure it is relayed to responding units as an electrical fire. Like I've said before, when in doubt, turn em out and you can always turn back units not needed. You treat something like this as having the potential to be a fire. How many major fires are caused by electrical shorts, overloads, etc. That's where you bring your own experiences into play.

As a former fireman, I would look at it as a potential job. Expect the worst, hope for the best.

Thermal imaging cameras and hand tools are a must, along with an ABC extinguisher. Also ensure the power to the home, or to the affected area of the home is isolated. Have a line stretched, uncharged, if needed. The IC can determine if they want to make it a fire or emergency depending on what the outcome of investigation/suppression is. I think that covers it from my end.

[RWC130 594]

PRE-PLAN!

Establish SOP's or SOG's between the 911 Dispatchers

and the Fire Department.

What does the FD want for XYZ type of Calls?

X = Gets an Engine.

Y = Gets an Engine and Truck.

Z = Gets a Full Assignment (i.e. 2 and 2, 3 and 2,)

Rescue, Squad, Special Units?

The more information you can obtain the better,

Updates to responding units are always helpful.

And one last thing with all due respect to Police Dispatchers, when someone

calls for the Fire Department SEND THE FIRE DEPARTMENT!

Don't send a Police Patrol to "Check and Advise" and DELAY the Fire Department.

I would also agree with JBE about the Structure Fire response.

WHEN IN DOUBT SEND THEM OUT!

[pjm1733 22]

I see a few key words, smoke and sparks, could easily turn into a fire in the wall. I would try to ask a few more questions,enter it as a Structure Fire That would generate a full assignment, 3 engines 1 truck and the rescue. If they had said my electric socket burnt out and its not smoking no sparks no fire. I would just enter it as an alrm 1 and 1 depending on the building type some buildings automatically get more. Dispatch it right away with all the info, update the deputy for his reccommendation

For me its real easy to fill out an alarm

But dont delay send them out.

What tools 1st arriving units bring ? I would have to say everything. on occasion I have had to send them to out at 4am on alarms. 1 and 1 depending on building type. They come in loaded for bear, full ppe, standpipe kit, irons,thermal image,water can, ropes,hydraulic door popper,ABC extinguisher,hooks probably more. Thats what i dont understand ? cause I have already had a cop check and advise. see above post

could not resist

sorry oswego

thats the way i would probably do it on saturday night when s is hitting the fan,

but you know, like me, mondays are for the QBs Have a Good Day

please stop all the serial fives sixes and twenty fives midnights ha ha

I edited for a little more clarity

Edited August 12, 2008 by pjm1733

[LCFD968 10]

1) Should dispatcher send out call as an electrical short which in my location does not get full response only limited?

2) As a responding unit do you treat this as a possible "job"?

Honestly how do we know what caused the " electrical short"? What is the sparks from? Lightning strike? Construction going on in the structure? With that being said SEND 'EM OUT!! Possible structure.. But advise the first responding units of the call information.

3) Do you think, based on potential, that call should be upgraded to a possible "job" and electrical short used as a "clearing code"?

As for electrical short as a "Clearing Code" we dont have that on our CAD. Its would be "Necessary Action Taken".

4) First due companies (engine and ladder), what tools do you grab and bring in?

Water can , HAHA just kidding. ABC extinguisher, TIC, Halogen, Pike. Screw driver..

5) Please provide info about your locality and the response generated for a reported electrical short and for a possible fire. Thanks!

Putnam County 100 % Volunteer. most ( if the have a ladder) Engine, Ladder then tanker. If no ladder Engine, Tanker etc...

[capt2102 64]

JBE hits the nail on the head. 100% on target. If I recieved less on the initial dispatch I would start out the full assignment before the overhead door was all the way up. Also LCFD968... I like my guys to take in a can and a CO2 on this type of fire. If its in the stud channel open up and hit it with the can. If its just the switch box, wack it with CO2. The ABC is VERY messy in a room for a small fire. You can do as much damage with an ABC as the fire, try to clean computer equipment after it has been in a room with 5 or 10# of ABC. Save the ABC for oil burners and main elect. panels.

[ajsbear 11]

JBE hit it pretty good. Fire in the walls? Fill out the assignment. You do not know how much extension there is and the time it takes for the 1st due to get there it can really take hold. Fire is won or lost in the early stages so any delay is critical. On top of that, those departments without hydrants, put the tankers on the road and the usual MA tankers on stand by. As JBE said, you can always send 'em back. If you need them and have to wait for them, you've lost the battle.

As for tools, the TIC, the typical hand tools to open the wall, pike ax, flat head, 6" pole, hallagan, the can and a CO, stretch a line but do not charge it

You really have to treat it as a structure fire as it can take off in the walls, You won't know until you open them up and then check for extension.

[firemoose827 324]

The thing about electrical fires is it could easily spread through the entire structure without the owner knowing it. Sure, the switch he is watching could very well not be smoking any more....BUT the outlet down the hall in the bedroom which is on the same circuit is now smoldering and catching the wood studs on fire. Never play around with electric, and never assume anything is going to be routine...."Routine"....that word shouldn't even be in our vocabulary because we all know that Nothing in the fire service is ever routine. Every call received as "Electrical" in nature should be dispatched as structural, and the chiefs advised of it being electrical in nature. Every crew stepping off a truck should always have basic hand tools whenever they get off the truck, and never be empty handed. Always grab the Irons, hooks, TIC, hand light, extinguishers, etc.

[Guest alsfirefighter]

The first thing that comes to mind is you send what the FD has established as response to such a call disposition. If that is what they are comfortable with then that is what they will utilize.

Secondly, lets remember that 2 firefighters were lost in an auto parts store in Chesapeake, VA in 1996 from a fire that was caused by electrical shorts after a power company truck's boom pulled the primary out from the panel. Every outlet in the store was believed to have shorted. Was their other problems that contributed to the loss of the brothers, yes. The assignment was dispatched as a full structure assignment and the engine the 2 were lost from originally cancelled the rest of the assignment without knowing that there was a fire above the drop ceiling. But the main point is electrical shorts and sparks from an outlet can be more then just the routine.

So Oswego...gotta use what they give you bro. While others have to hope that their call gets transfered or information is passed along from 43 PSAP's.

[Remember585 815]

Quiz:

1) Should dispatcher send out call as an electrical short which in my location does not get full response only limited?

Send the box. Why send less and open yourself up for major problems? In my eyes an Inside Electrical Problem would be more geared towards dim lights, a blown phase, etc. Sparks and smoke reported - the smoke wins and gets a box simply because that smoke could be a fire in the wall.

2) As a responding unit do you treat this as a possible "job"?

In terms of apparatus positioning, I always think of it as "a job." Truck position, nearest water source, how long of a stretch, etc. are always accounted for.

3) Do you think, based on potential, that call should be upgraded to a possible "job" and electrical short used as a "clearing code"?

I'd put it in as a "STRU" in the CAD, then dispatch it as a possible electrical fire. The responding units would get the update "caller reports sparks and smoke coming from an outlet."

4) First due companies (engine and ladder), what tools do you grab and bring in?

PPE w/ SCBA (not donned yet), TIC, Water Can, Irons, Hook - the usual stuff. Burning electrical wires, the insulation and other crap in the walls can be nasty, so the SCBA is there should it be needed. If the juice is killed to the problem area, you can use the Water Can on it, the CO2 or a Dry-Chem. Like the Capt. said, Dry-chem makes a mess so I like to avoid it indoors as often as possible.

5) Please provide info about your locality and the response generated for a reported electrical short and for a possible fire. Thanks!

Any reports of smoke, whether visible or an odor, gets the full assignment (3 Eng, 1 Truck, 1 Rescue, 1 Tanker where needed) in our district. Based on dispatch info, time of day, weather, updates, known building issues (CIDS, etc.) more may be added or less sent depending on the items mentioned.

Most commonly, if it sounds like "something" in our tanker boxes, we'll start out a Tanker or two instead of waiting and getting caught with our pants down.

[Guest]

As someone who has been to hundreds of electrical emergency's ill tell you this, if its me getting paid for it, send 3 and 2, if I am doing it for free do not send it over as a structure fire, cause it isnt. Its very subjective as it depends on where you are. I would be sure to ask what kind of building it is. If its an apt in a crappy area then I would be more inclined to send 3 and 2 as water leaks and bx cable make for one fun event! If its a new house I would be less likely to send everyone, but thats a Union issue. I have been to quite a few water leaks that are actually electrical emergency's and its not a problem to handle it with the one truck that is assigned. It can also depend on the response policy of the Dept, if the guys get on the rig and respond instead of responding to the scene it would def change the way I would want things dispatched, but one Engine is enough for an electrical emergency until you get more information.

[DaRock98 76]

As someone who has been to hundreds of electrical emergency's ill tell you this, if its me getting paid for it, send 3 and 2, if I am doing it for free do not send it over as a structure fire, cause it isnt. Its very subjective as it depends on where you are. I would be sure to ask what kind of building it is. If its an apt in a crappy area then I would be more inclined to send 3 and 2 as water leaks and bx cable make for one fun event! If its a new house I would be less likely to send everyone, but thats a Union issue. I have been to quite a few water leaks that are actually electrical emergency's and its not a problem to handle it with the one truck that is assigned. It can also depend on the response policy of the Dept, if the guys get on the rig and respond instead of responding to the scene it would def change the way I would want things dispatched, but one Engine is enough for an electrical emergency until you get more information.

I don't think I understand your reply can you explain it a little more? I don't understand what getting paid for it or not has to do with it. My personal opinion is if it is a vollie dept to put it out as a structure fire because from my past experience possible structure fires gets a much better response then an inside electrical problem from members.(at least in my dept) It's sad to say but its true there are a few members who only like to come out for "the good stuff."

If it came over my pager as an inside electrical problem it would only get a 1 engine and utility response. Once on the road the dispatcher advises me the there is smoke and sparks showing I would defiantly upgrade the alarm to a full response. Once on scene I would bring just like everyone else said TIC, Irons, Roof hook, ABC extinguisher, water can etc. Once on scene if its found to be no emergency start sending people back. Better to be safe then sorry in my opinion.

[Guest]

Thats just it, when its your job and you are at work being paid to respond its different than when I am at home. Its not a structural fire, its an emergency. And like you said, when you say structure fire its the boy who cried wolf syndrome, keep doing that and you wont even get guys to turn out for them either. If these dispatchers have the ability to get more information from the caller they should be able to include turning off the circuit breaker or the air conditioner and the hair dryer, and the fan and the mini fridge and the tv and the stereo and the iron all connected to the same circuit.

[Paul J DeBartolomeo 0]

Where I work it would be dispatched as sparks or smoke from an outlet & would recieve a structural assignment of 2 engines, 2 ladders, & a B.C. More than likely it would result in a signal 10-40 code 2 (electrical emergency) The tool assignment for the inside team would be the standard compliment, as we always shut the breaker upon entering the dwelling we would treat this as a class A fire and would operate with the can if needed.

Good Discussion

Stay Safe, Paul

[DaRock98 76]

Thats just it, when its your job and you are at work being paid to respond its different than when I am at home. Its not a structural fire, its an emergency. And like you said, when you say structure fire its the boy who cried wolf syndrome, keep doing that and you wont even get guys to turn out for them either. If these dispatchers have the ability to get more information from the caller they should be able to include turning off the circuit breaker or the air conditioner and the hair dryer, and the fan and the mini fridge and the tv and the stereo and the iron all connected to the same circuit.

Gotcha thanks.

[capt2102 64]

Roofs open... what makes it a "Union issue" as to the assignment to this call? And what is the crying wolf issue? You must go back to the origional post where he states " I was burned on this type of call a few years back with some incomplete information, turned out to be a structure fire."

Well guess what, it is a structure fire. You can't fill out the NYS Incident report for this type of job without filling out the FIRE Incident module. Even more so if you open up the wall (structure damage) and you have to open the wall from the info you have so far.

Could this be handled with a 1 & 1... maybe. But when you get there and the sparks and smoke actually happened 2 hours ago and the smoke smell never went away, thats when you need the assignment cause its already 2 floors above you in some other apartment. Now you get to chase it and the assignment you had isn't enough for what you are about to undertake.

[Guest]

Roofs open... what makes it a "Union issue" as to the assignment to this call? And what is the crying wolf issue? You must go back to the origional post where he states " I was burned on this type of call a few years back with some incomplete information, turned out to be a structure fire."

Well guess what, it is a structure fire. You can't fill out the NYS Incident report for this type of job without filling out the FIRE Incident module. Even more so if you open up the wall (structure damage) and you have to open the wall from the info you have so far.

Could this be handled with a 1 & 1... maybe. But when you get there and the sparks and smoke actually happened 2 hours ago and the smoke smell never went away, thats when you need the assignment cause its already 2 floors above you in some other apartment. Now you get to chase it and the assignment you had isn't enough for what you are about to undertake.

Its a Union issue that in we have it in place that certain alarms get a dictated response. Sparks from an outlet being a structural response. Where I work is 99% 5 and 6 Story buildings. Where I live is 99.9% 2 story buildings. Why would you dispatch a volunteer company for a structure fire when they in deed just have a sparking outlet? If you are not in NYC stop adapting to the way they do things. I hear on the local radio exposure reports for PD's what a waste as the only reason I hear it is because I live at 700ft above sea level. The guys responding never hear it, but thats a whole other issue. In Putnam County the dispatchers do not make dispatch policy, the local Chiefs do, so if they say fire or sparking outlet and only 6 guys show up its the same thing, you only have 6 guys. Now if you continue to say fire when its food on the stove or some other BS run, guys are gonna do the same thing they do when its a car accident at 5am on a weekday, the rollover.

[Oswegowind 17]

please stop all the serial fives sixes and twenty fives midnights ha ha

I edited for a little more clarity

PJM...not enought clarity...what the heck does that mean?????????

[pjm1733 22]

Sorry i thought you did the nyspin entries on midnights.

Oswego and jbe what kind of response does the yo/nyc send for a elec short/burnt plug/ balist no fire. No smoke. General elec emergencies vs a structure fire ? do have selected codes to generate automatic responses ? does a general fire alarm get the same as a structure fire ? thanks in advance.

Good topic osw

Edited August 13, 2008 by moosecfd368
Changed ALL CAPS to normal.

[Bnechis 3,961]

Its a Union issue that in we have it in place that certain alarms get a dictated response. Sparks from an outlet being a structural response. Where I work is 99% 5 and 6 Story buildings. Where I live is 99.9% 2 story buildings. Why would you dispatch a volunteer company for a structure fire when they in deed just have a sparking outlet? If you are not in NYC stop adapting to the way they do things.

Not every building in NYC is 5, 6 or more. Why is it that is the proper thing to send a full alarm to a house in Queens but not to an identical house in Putnam?

Lets not forget that FDNY responds to more single family house fires than anyone else.

In Putnam County the dispatchers do not make dispatch policy, the local Chiefs do, so if they say fire or sparking outlet and only 6 guys show up its the same thing, you only have 6 guys. Now if you continue to say fire when its food on the stove or some other BS run, guys are gonna do the same thing they do when its a car accident at 5am on a weekday, the rollover.

If you cant get your members to respond to calls, then maybe its time to go to staffed rigs (dedicated vol. crews or career) or to have another agency take over everything.

[Guest]

Not every building in NYC is 5, 6 or more. Why is it that is the proper thing to send a full alarm to a house in Queens but not to an identical house in Putnam?

Lets not forget that FDNY responds to more single family house fires than anyone else.

If you cant get your members to respond to calls, then maybe its time to go to staffed rigs (dedicated vol. crews or career) or to have another agency take over everything.

When you have almost 1700 guys on duty every minute of the day, its a lot easier to send 6 rigs than it is when you have no one home. And like I said before in Putnam the Disp's DO NOT dictate the response of the apparatus, its done by the individual Dept. If you can not put out a small fire with 6 guys the least of your worries is getting the next rig there. Ive been to 3 or 4 fires where I was nozzle and b/u. Of course it sucked, but if it was my house I wouldnt want some guy standing in my front yard saying he needs to wait for more help before he stretches a line!

I am not trying to start a side topic of we need paid staffing, its never going to happen. The surrounding towns got rid of their PD's now you think all of a sudden we are going to get paid FD's? Guys dont come out cause gas is 4 bucks a gallon, and too many times we get ZERO information on the way to an alarm that by the time you get there its nothing or taken care of and you are never told!

[Oswegowind 17]

SORRY I THOUGHT YOU DID THE NYSPIN ENTRIES ON MIDNIGHTS.

OSWEGO AND JBE WHAT KIND OF RESPONSE DOES THE YO/NYC SEND FOR A ELEC SHORT/BURNT PLUG/ BALIST NO FIRE. NO SMOKE. GENERAL ELEC EMERGENCIES VS A STRUCTURE FIRE ? DO HAVE SELECTED CODES TO GENERATE AUTOMATIC RESPONSES ? DOES A GENERAL FIRE ALARM GET THE SAME AS A STRUCTURE FIRE ? THANKS IN ADVANCE.

GOOD TOPIC OSW

About NYSPIN, I don't get to do that anymore...only inquiries in Yonkers, there is a "special unit" that handles the entries and exits...Used to do that when I worked at the County though, kind of miss that work...broke up the everyday with something different and a little more in depth. That midnight thing is tough, I used to hate when Yonkers sent out all the file 13's at once, you'd be in the middle of a rap sheet for pistol permits and then this File 13 unrelated would end up in the middle of it!

As for Yonkers FD responses:

10-37 (electrical short-which is based on calltaker's knowledge): 1E, 1L, 1R, 1B

10-29 (reported structural fire): 4-5E, 2L, 1R, 1B, and the Safety Batt.

10-32/33/35 (activated alarm, sprinkler activation, fire alarm sounding <persons in premise calling in>): 4E, 2L, 1B

on some activated alarms the Rescue goes...like Hospitals and maybe nursing homes.

Of course everything is based on what the caller can tell you or describe. The time I got burned, the call-taker put the job in as a 10-37 and in the remarks they typed something like, over-heated fan smoking. First due was the Batt, (Batt2 on here I think...), and he had a 10-29 and requested we fill out the assignment. It was on Saw Mill River Rd. Hasn't happened to me since...now they all get full assignments because I am not there and can't trust someone else's observations to be accurately relayed through the game of "telephone"!

[NYRangers30 1]

it should either be dispatched as a possible electrical fire, reported electrical fire, or possible electrical related structure fire

[pjm1733 22]

osw

Of course everything is based on what the caller can tell you or describe. The time I got burned, the call-taker put the job in as a 10-37 and in the remarks they typed something like, over-heated fan smoking. First due was the Batt, (Batt2 on here I think...), and he had a 10-29 and requested we fill out the assignment. It was on Saw Mill River Rd. Hasn't happened to me since...now they all get full assignments because I am not there and can't trust someone else's observations to be accurately relayed through the game of "telephone"

I know that game well. You say your not there. I guess that means your in a seperate room. Good or bad thing for us we do it all from the same room, all calls for pd/fd/ems are taken and dispatched within feet of each other. I can easily pick up on and listen to all hot calls, or just talk to the call taker. I can give quick updates on additionial call ins also. It amazing sometimes how a few extra questions can help. yea smoke in the hall way, can you describe it ? white smoke, maybe from cooking, or black acrid smoke like somethings burning ? " well its white smoke"' smells like Ms Jones burning dinner again in apt 5J" Thank you I will send the FD. Gets the same full assignment, but with better info.

!10-32/33/35 (activated alarm, sprinkler activation, fire alarm sounding <persons in premise calling in>): 4E, 2L, 1B

on some activated alarms the Rescue goes...like Hospitals and maybe nursing homes.

WOW 4 & 2 With the amount of "workers" you get i can see why. For me I have not dispatched a worker since March of 04

just lucky. Dont worry it wont happen, I have said it before.

About NYSPIN, I don't get to do that anymore...only inquiries in Yonkers, there is a "special unit" that handles the entries and exits...Used to do that when I worked at the County though, kind of miss that work...broke up the everyday with something different and a little more in depth. That midnight thing is tough, I used to hate when Yonkers sent out all the file 13's at once, you'd be in the middle of a rap sheet for pistol permits and then this File 13 unrelated would end up in the middle of it!

pistol permiter w/ rap sheets oh boy,yea the 9 pin state printer is annoyin, im sure all 942 psaps in county love it also. We recently got the interface for cad, much better, gone green lets say, easy to read on monitor also.

later suns almost up have a good day

[ny10570 745]

Once in a blue moon afa's turn out to be real also but most depts and many on this board are all for reduced response responses, even going cold on these alarms. The vast majority of electrical emergencies are easily handled with one crew. Unless there is information to indicate otherwise minor alarm response.