Corrections Officers and Medical Details

[Guest]

I had a conversation yesterday with a co-worker (we work at WMC) and we got on to the topic of CO's and their medical details. I just have a quick question about this. A few years back, near the dental clinic and near the OLD ER, CO's used to carry shotguns inside the hospital along with their holstered handgun. And in my memory I don't recall any CO's carrying shotguns anymore since the ER's have changed. Just wondering if their has been a change or I just haven't seen them. I do recall patients and staff members alike telling me how nervous they used to get with shotguns in the hospital…maybe this has something to do with it?

I ask in regards to all CO's (County, State and Marshall's ), and do other hospital allow long guns.

Thanks in advance.

Edited August 8, 2008 by vacguy

[smwells 7]

When I was at Empire, we did these medical transport runs with the CO's aboard, I only saw the CO's with their regular handgun, not sure what they were carrying in the chase vehicle between facilities.

[NWFDMedic 58]

Was this a one time incident or a regular occurrence? I have been transporting prisoners from state and federal facilities for 12 years and have never seen anything other than a handgun brought into a medical facility, with two exceptions. One patient was a (very) high profile prisoner from Otisville Federal Correctional Institute and the other was a patient who the state considered a high risk of activity because he was being transported to St. Luke's Hospital (Newburgh) and had been involved in an incident in Newburgh and still had friends (and likely enemies) in Newburgh. The latter patient we actually transported code-3 to the hospital at the request of the facility.

[Guest]

Was this a one time incident or a regular occurrence? I have been transporting prisoners from state and federal facilities for 12 years and have never seen anything other than a handgun brought into a medical facility, with two exceptions. One patient was a (very) high profile prisoner from Otisville Federal Correctional Institute and the other was a patient who the state considered a high risk of activity because he was being transported to St. Luke's Hospital (Newburgh) and had been involved in an incident in Newburgh and still had friends (and likely enemies) in Newburgh. The latter patient we actually transported code-3 to the hospital at the request of the facility.

those seem like some pretty cool times! but, this was a regular occurrence

[LTNRFD 266]

Was this a one time incident or a regular occurrence? I have been transporting prisoners from state and federal facilities for 12 years and have never seen anything other than a handgun brought into a medical facility, with two exceptions. One patient was a (very) high profile prisoner from Otisville Federal Correctional Institute and the other was a patient who the state considered a high risk of activity because he was being transported to St. Luke's Hospital (Newburgh) and had been involved in an incident in Newburgh and still had friends (and likely enemies) in Newburgh. The latter patient we actually transported code-3 to the hospital at the request of the facility.

This might need to be it's own topic.

In my many years of working commercial services, I too had to transport many a prisoner from local and state facilities. Once while transporting a prisoner from Sing Sing to W.C.M.C non-emergency for tests and a possible procedure, we had a car in front and 2 vans behind the ambulance. Usually there was only 1 van following. The CO in the ambulance with the prisoner stated that the patient was one of the real bad boys at Sing Sing and they were expecting his buddies on the outside to help him escape. Info that my partner and I really didn't ever want to hear on a prisoner transfer.

My question to this is. Should EMS be responsible for these types of transfers or should the State need to provide ambulance transport with CO's as EMT's ? Should EMS be put in these situations where there is no formal training on what to do and not do should the transfer go south?

[Guest]

This might need to be it's own topic.

In my many years of working commercial services, I too had to transport many a prisoner from local and state facilities. Once while transporting a prisoner from Sing Sing to W.C.M.C non-emergency for tests and a possible procedure, we had a car in front and 2 vans behind the ambulance. Usually there was only 1 van following. The CO in the ambulance with the prisoner stated that the patient was one of the real bad boys at Sing Sing and they were expecting his buddies on the outside to help him escape. Info that my partner and I really didn't ever want to hear on a prisoner transfer.

My question to this is. Should EMS be responsible for these types of transfers or should the State need to provide ambulance transport with CO's as EMT's ? Should EMS be put in these situations where there is no formal training on what to do and not do should the transfer go south?

non-emergency? ...Hell No

County, State and Feds have their own transport units and they bring sick, non-urgent patients to WMC all the time. to put ems into this is wrong...but for those EMS COMPANIES...as long as someone is paying the bill, what they hell do they care...

being in valhalla vac we do mutual aid calls to the county jail a little too frequently and when i did my rotations at empress we id a non-emergency transport for the Bedford jail - mind you we went code 3 to the jail FROM YONKERS and transported the pt. non-emergency to the hospital, which i think was st. agnes.

and, NO GUNS have even been in the ambulance while i've been on the calls. the CO in the ambulance gives his gun to his partner following in their van...the way it's supposed be.

Edited August 8, 2008 by vacguy

[NWFDMedic 58]

non-emergency? ...Hell No

County, State and Feds have their own transport units and they bring sick, non-urgent patients to WMC all the time. to put ems into this is wrong...but for those EMS COMPANIES...as long as someone is paying the bill, what they hell do they care...

being in valhalla vac we do mutual aid calls to the county jail a little too frequently and when i did my rotations at empress we id a non-emergency transport for the Bedford jail - mind you we went code 3 to the jail FROM YONKERS and transported the pt. non-emergency to the hospital, which i think was st. agnes.

and, NO GUNS have even been in the ambulance while i've been on the calls. the CO in the ambulance gives his gun to his partner following in their van...the way it's supposed be.

The state prisons generally bring their prisoners to and from non-urgent procedures in those beautiful blue vans. However, if a patient is non-ambulatory and cannot sit in a wheelchair, they have to go by ambulance. My company currently has the contract with Fishkill Correctional and we take patients fairly regularly to Mount Vernon for routine procedures. In fact, I was just there Wednesday night (and I hate Mt. Vernon with a passion).

You have brought up an interesting point though. Would it be appropriate for NYSDOCS to provide our staff with any type of training regarding issues with the transports? Is there any type of training available for civilian personnel that have to deal with the prisoners on a regular basis? Personally, if something goes wrong, I would lean toward saving my rear and my partner's rear and let the corrections staff deal with the rest. I know there are some issues regarding driving with the corrections staff and with a "chase" vehicle (ie. no quick lane changes, signal and then let the chase vehicle move first, etc.) but those are things I picked up along the way.

[helicopper 1,050]

Interesting topic. I've never seen rifles or shotguns carried by DOC members inside a medical facility but I'm sure there are those rare case by case exceptions (as already described). As for EMS getting some kind of special training to deal with prisoner transports, I think the best thing you can do is simply be the "ambulance driver" in those cases. Odds are the prisoner knows who the cops/CO's are/are not and you'd only be asking for trouble by intervening during an escape attempt or other incident. Two things come immediately to mind... "Feet don't fail me now" and "Yes, sir. No, sir". One of those two options is probably better than your family finding out that your "training" was inadequate and how ridiculous the LODD benefits for EMS are.

[calhobs 110]

Interesting topic. I've never seen rifles or shotguns carried by DOC members inside a medical facility but I'm sure there are those rare case by case exceptions (as already described). As for EMS getting some kind of special training to deal with prisoner transports, I think the best thing you can do is simply be the "ambulance driver" in those cases. Odds are the prisoner knows who the cops/CO's are/are not and you'd only be asking for trouble by intervening during an escape attempt or other incident. Two things come immediately to mind... "Feet don't fail me now" and "Yes, sir. No, sir". One of those two options is probably better than your family finding out that your "training" was inadequate and how ridiculous the LODD benefits for EMS are.

Amen to that

[Guest alsfirefighter]

Chris makes excellent points and one I want to add on to also and its one that I teach tactical medic students as well. They are your PATIENT who is in custody of the Dept. of Corrections. They are an inmate to the CO's. They may be the down and dirtiest of dogs that truly deserve nothing in life from any of us. But in the end they are still a patient, and in some cases particularly in the law enforcement environment you still have to be their patient advocate in some cases. The best training you can have is to treat them the same way you treat anyone else. Most will not want to screw with you because you have done nothing to their respect code they have on the inside unless you do first.

[Goose 188]

Never had an issue transporting a prisoner from either a state county or local facility. The only difference, for me, between treating a prisoner and a civi is there is a lot less "small" talk going on. I'll ask the clinical questions i need to and that's about as far as it goes.

[Guest EFFP411]

Never had an issue transporting a prisoner from either a state county or local facility. The only difference, for me, between treating a prisoner and a civi is there is a lot less "small" talk going on. I'll ask the clinical questions i need to and that's about as far as it goes.

Same here, I ask medical related questions, and thats it. Bring a good book, and take your patients vitals every 15 minutes. Thats the extent of my interaction. They don't bother me, I don't bother them. They know darn well that if they act out and give me any grief, the CO sitting behind them is going to give them a good pounding... I'm just getting tired of seeing the same 4 or 5 inmates going all the way to MOUNT VERNON HOSPITAL(insert hatred here) from fishkill for BS procedures.

Edited August 9, 2008 by EFFP411

[Guest EFFP411]

Oh, and did I mention how much i hate doing prison trips?? The list of reasons goes on and on. The CO's start to forget that not everyone is a convict and treat everyone they encounter like crap some days, they fail to mention that the code 3 response that was requested was for BS, and we have to wait outside the gates for a half an hour while the guards to finish shift change and get their van and trip officers together before they let us in. The shear fact that they requested mount vernon hospital which will eat a good 4 hours of your day and take a valuable ALS ambulance out of service because a prisoner has oxygen as needed, which they never seem to need when they go. The fact that when you're driving to Mount Vernon, the CO driving the chase van will only do 40 on the Sprain because he wants to get some overtime out of the trip, and call to complain if you don't allow them to get their precious overtime by doing the speed limit, or anything close to it, when all I want to do is go eat lunch. The fact that the mention it might be a round trip, but fail to mention that there are 4 other inmates in the chase van, and you have to wait for ALL the inmates to be seen and treated at the hospital before you can return. Did I miss any?? Granted, for the occasional "true" emergency, they will let you go to the closest facility, which in Fishkill's case is St. Lukes, but in those cases, by the time you waste the 40 plus minutes to make patient contact, The life or death situation has turned into a death and coroner situation. And, if the inmte survives, as soon as he/she is stable, guess what! Someone is getting a trip to Mount Vermin Hospital. Now don't get me wrong, I know it makes us money, and not all CO's are as bad as mentioned above, I know quite a few, and most of them are really cool Right Chief?! Anyway......

Ok, I'm done now. I just had a bad day and the wonderful prison trip of the day just made it worse....

Edited August 9, 2008 by EFFP411

[NWFDMedic 58]

They are not all that bad Rob. In fact, I just got back from one (surprise). They have procedures that they have to follow that we don't understand in a lot of cases. I just go with the flow; anything that happens before I make patient contact isn't on my watch.

[Guest EFFP411]

They are not all that bad Rob. In fact, I just got back from one (surprise). They have procedures that they have to follow that we don't understand in a lot of cases. I just go with the flow; anything that happens before I make patient contact isn't on my watch.

Yea, and the most time consuming "procedure" they have had lately is goofing off and dragging feet to make their overtime.... :angry:

[64FFMJK 21]

as A NYS CO I can say that the only weapons issued to CO's on medical trips is the .38 special revolver. the officer in th back of he bus with the inmate will not be armed and the officer driving the DOC's van that follows is armed only with the revolver. there may be some exceptions for "special" inmates however they are extremly rare.

and for those of you that hate taking inmates in an ambulance out of DOC's facilities, I hope you realize that we transport alot more with our own vans as long as they are cleared by the in facility nurces.

[joetnymedic 43]

When I was posted with Metro/Trans at WMC we did runs from the county jail which the only issue was getting in and out of the facility and that wasn't all that bad. When I was with WEMS we did Bedford Correctional and I forgot the name of the one accross the street. Had to wait for the chase van and for them to check out the rig to make sure we had no extra riders but it wasn't all that bad. Thing that worried me more with Bedford was being warned to watch out for an inmates nails because they were filed like weapons. Funny call at Bedford was the maternity all sprawled out on the cement floor ready to give birth with all the guards around her and no blankets or anything on the floor. I'm like hello can we at least get a few blankets if she decides she has to pop here. The Feds were a bit different although similiar. As I did a run ad the womens place in Danbury awhile back and that was a trip. Female Latin King/Queen head. van in front van in back co in the rig. Both vans had 9mm's. CO told us that there was extra security at the hospital and when we got there - oh yes there were. Guys with guns everywhere. one thing I noticed is the federal guys all wear bullet proof vests and at the hospital the prisoner always has at least two officers at all times. They may take off the belly chains but the inmate is cuffed to the bed and the lag chains never come off. Guard told me that the usual is one guard in the rig and one in the van. at the hospital one guard has the weapon and one holds the cuff keys, guess thats in case the inmate somehow overpowers one of them. He told me that the reason for all the security on this trip was in place was her gang status and her status with the gang. That most trips were alot less active and more like our state/county runs. I'm hoping someone from Ossining is online and can share an interesting story I heard while working there. We got a call for Sing Sing and getting in and out was different to say the least. They went over every square inch of the van both going in and coming out. One of my partners told me about a code they had at the prison that was pretty funny. Inmate in arrest, they chained him up, going out wanted the inmate to identify himself, name and number, then when they got to Phelps, they wouldn't remove the chains and let the ER staff do their job. I'm sure there was more to this I'm forgetting , but fact of the matter was the guy was in arrest - hello dead, doubt he'd be able to tell you his name, etc and doubt he'd be able to run. I know he passed at the hospital. I wonder do they bring the guy down to the morgue or do they call the m.e. to come get them or what. and does the CO stay there until the body goes wherever? Also remember going to the St. Agnes prison ward awhile back. That was different. When I worked Hartford area up here in CT they had a ward at UCONN but that was mostly a locked door and then a gate. Yours later when I went to UCONN for a follow up liver biopsy had to go to the same florr and was like oh no wrong place. Then realized the hallway to the right was where I had to go-lol. St Agnes was a whole different setup. Wonder where the inmates went when St Agnes closed.

Edited August 16, 2008 by joetnymedic

[SRS131EMTFF 471]

The facility across from Bedford Correctional is Taconic Correctional

[weaselff 6]

During my FDNY EMS days I conducted literally hundreds of prisoner transports out of Rikers. Aside from the time an EDP spit in face, I generally had more problems with the "third world" medical staff in the prison clinics than any inmates or officers. Lets just say the doctors and RN's working there weren't exactly from the top of the class. I always loved the upside down longboard, followed up with the backwards upside down c-collar. It was no use trying to be a patient advocate, the one time I tried, I almost started a race riot(thats a long story for another day).

Most of my transports I was escorted by 2 officers, each armed with a 9mm. One in front and one in the pt. compartment. Once for a high profile inmate, I was escorted with an additional 2 officers in the patient compartment. I thought the inmate transfers were pretty exciting the first 2 or 3 times, but after a while it just became a 2 hour inconvience that always came up at tour change.

[joetnymedic 43]

Thanks bdfdjc - it's been awhile since 02 as a matter of fact. And come on Weasel, didn't you know in addition to being professionals at their jobs, DOC medical staff is exremely well trained and can handle almost any emergency-LOL!!!!. Really, I've actually been in some places where they actually did a pretty good job, some places don't. Kinda like some of the ECF's, not bad, clean, Then you have the hell holes you wouldn't want to see a pet rat at.

Joe

[weaselff 6]

Thanks bdfdjc - it's been awhile since 02 as a matter of fact. And come on Weasel, didn't you know in addition to being professionals at their jobs, DOC medical staff is exremely well trained and can handle almost any emergency-LOL!!!!. Really, I've actually been in some places where they actually did a pretty good job, some places don't. Kinda like some of the ECF's, not bad, clean, Then you have the hell holes you wouldn't want to see a pet rat at.

Joe

The jails on Rikers are the only ones ive ever been in, was kind of wondering if it was the same everywhere as far as the incompetence of the medical staff?